The Gift of Tongues

[The Biblicist]

Dangerous stuff and open to fraud.

I know a fellow who was in a evangelical revival and the preacher preached on the necessity of tongues to be a Christian. When it came time for prayers some prayed in tongues and an interpreter then translated their tongues into English.

So, the person telling me this story stood and prayed the Lord's Prayer in Greek. The interpreter interpreted .... but completely wrong. The interpretation had nothing to do with the Lord's Prayer or with prayer at all.

When I was a kid there was a woman in my neighborhood ... in the country ... who spoke in tongues at every service in her church. She was second meanest woman I knew, very vile, very foul mouthed, etc.

The meanest woman I knew got away with murder. Literally got away with murder. The pigs ate the evidence.

It bothered me as an adult that when I was at a local charismatic church and charismatic conferences that speaking in tongues were turned on and off by the leaders. A "Let us pray" and just about everyone began speaking in tongues. After a few minutes the preacher or the prayer leader would raise his hands, make a motion and everyone would cease speaking in tongues. I don't believe the Holy Spirit can be turned on and off at will. [Just my belief.]

So, as a kid I was never impressed by those advocating tongues. I still am not. No offense meant here, just relating incidences from my life.

When I was in college, I met a couple of Hebrew students from California. They told me they had gone to a pentecostal prayer meeting where some would speak in "tongues" and then others would give an interpretation. One of these hebrew students stood up and merely quoted Psalm 23 in Hebrew. Up stood a supposed interpreter with the gift of interpretation and gave some long outlandish interpretation about the Lord's return.

I have personally attended various Pentecostal denominations during their tongue speaking. Indeed, in a small city not too far from my present location I attended a youth rally when everyone in the building except me alone broke out into what they called "tongues." Mass confusion, no interpretation given at all, the word of God trodden underneath their feet and yet they had the audacity to claim the Holy Spirit was the author of such confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

 

[Iconoclast]

(1) In Romans 8:26, alaletos, "inexpressible" (a, negative, laleo, "to speak"), is rendered "which cannot be uttered."

how do you understand the verse in light of this? does it matter to you what the scripture says.
Sign gifts did happen at that time.They were signs of an apostle. That time is finished

12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

 

[The Biblicist]

When I was in college, I met a couple of Hebrew students from California. They told me they had gone to a pentecostal prayer meeting where some would speak in "tongues" and then others would give an interpretation. One of these hebrew students stood up and merely quoted Psalm 23 in Hebrew. Up stood a supposed interpreter with the gift of interpretation and gave some long outlandish interpretation about the Lord's return.

I have personally attended various Pentecostal denominations during their tongue speaking. Indeed, in a small city not too far from my present location I attended a youth rally when everyone in the building except me alone broke out into what they called "tongues." Mass confusion, no interpretation given at all, the word of God trodden underneath their feet and yet they had the audacity to claim the Holy Spirit was the author of such confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

I have lots of pentecostal tongue speakers in my family. I converse with them often. Characteristically, they have little Bible knowledge, lots of false doctrine and spiritually immature.

They have no clue about the sanctifying power of prayer. Instead they are mentally zoned out when they pray and then interpret their prayers based on their feelings and visions. Hence, little spiritual maturity in the ministry of prayer. Their prayer does not cause them to be introspective, as they simply babble. Their "spiritual" maturity is about the level of Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists general speaking as most know very little of God's Word.

They have a low view of the Bible as final authority. Why should they, when they can receive direct revelation from God daily instead of going to some old archaic book?

 

[preachinjesus]

I take it that you define tongues as being an actual human language that is used in ordinary, everyday conversation (as opposed to gibberish).

Based on that fact, why then do people who claim to possess the gift of tongues and are called to some foreign mission field still see the need to go to a foreign language school to be able to converse with those folks who live in the mission field to which they believe that they have been called?

I can't answer this question as I am not a missionary nor one who speaks in tongues.

Wouldn't you think that the Holy Spirit would miraculously give such a person the ability to understand and converse in that language of the people to which He has called them?

This isn't the same thing that I am describing above.

 

[plain_n_simple]

How do you know about my prayer life????

You spout head knowledge but never a testimony of what prayer does in your life. Without the Spirit you have no results, or it would be one of the main things you would speak of, giving the glory to God. You simply do not have an effective prayer life, the Holy Spirit is not manifesting. When you claim the gifts stopped, that would include knowledge also. The devil has not stopped, God did not take away our gifts. You are not spiritual minded enough to accept that. That which is perfect has not arrived yet. Ask Jesus when you are alone to baptize you with fire. Then you will have some proof.

 

[The Biblicist]

You spout head knowledge but never a testimony of what prayer does in your life.

I simply do not boast of what God has done in my life and through me. This forum is not designed to be a boasting forum but a debate forum. You speak ignorantly as you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to my life or any other life other than your own life. That is pure arrogance and pride and pride goeth before the fall.

The test of a prophet, a teacher is found in one word "truth" as contrasted to one word "error" (1 Jn. 4:6). He is the Spirit "of truth" and "thy word is TRUTH" and "ye shall know THE TRUTH and THE TRUTH will make you free" and the charactization of the "house of God" is that it is the "pillar and ground of the truth." Sancification is "by truth." NOWHERE is the Spirit, the Lord, the churches or sanctification CHARACTERIZED by miracles signs or wonders! However, the predicted apostasy is characterized by those very things (Mt. 24:24-25; 2 The. 2:9-12).

Without the Spirit

How can you be so brazenly arrogant??? Are you saying that only those who speak in tongues have the Spirit of God? Poor Lord Jesus Christ who never spoke in tongues; Poor John the Baptist who never did a single miracle but Jesus said there was none in the kingdom greater than he and yet he was filled with the Spirit from the womb of his mother.

The Holy Spirit is very much alive in my life and I rejoice in his power and presence in my life every day, but to boast just to prove it to you is absurd.

May I remind you that the proof of the Spirit is not miracles, signs and wonders as "carnal' Christians have that (1 Cor. 3:1-3) but yet were NOT SPIRITUAL.

You simply do not have an effective prayer life, the Holy Spirit is not manifesting

The Spirit was manifested in all signs and wonder in the Corinthians but there was no MANIFEST SPIRITUALITY in them - 1 Cor. 3:1-3.

What absolute arrogance in this accusation as you now are claiming to be omniscient as God - pride goeth before the fall!

You have no clue about praying in the Spirit. You have no clue about Biblical prayer and the sanctifying power of prayer and no one who babbles without their mind engaged could ever know the sanctifying power in prayer.

From my past conversations with you , you don't even understand the simple gospel of Christ much less how to walk "in the Spirit."

When you claim the gifts stopped, that would include knowledge also.

He is referring to the gift of knowledge not mere knowlege! He already repeated this gift earlier in chapter 12. This is one of several other necessary revelatory gifts for leadership in the early congregations prior to furnishing the New Testament Scriptures (Acts 13:1). This kind of knowledge did not come from book learning or school but direct knowledge or intuitive knowledge necessary to understand and teach prophetic revelations that came by the prophetic office. Tongues "ceased of itself" prior to knowlege and prophecy which are stopped by that finished product such gifts were given to produce - New Testament written revelation and the completion of the Biblical canon.

Ask Jesus when you are alone to baptize you with fire. Then you will have some proof.

Provide just one scripture where the Holy Spirit directed anyone to "ask" to be "baptized in the Spirit"! Please, don't give me your inferences but explicit teaching. If what you say is true, it should be repeated throughout the scriptures over and over. Don't give us the none sense that seeking to be "filled" is one and the same as pre-pentecost saints were "filled" but there was no "baptism in the Spirit" until Pentecost (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:5).

 

[plain_n_simple]

"I simply do not boast of what God has done in my life and through me"

Can't boast and praise God? You have nothing to testify of. Yours is reading the book of how to walk, but never walking. Get walkin brotha!

 

[The Biblicist]

"I simply do not boast of what God has done in my life and through me"

Can't boast and praise God? You have nothing to testify of. Yours is reading the book of how to walk, but never walking. Get walkin brotha!

I will tell you the real problem. You can't defend your error by God's Word and so you make a personal attack as this is the only thing left in your demonic arsenal.

This matter of boasting in your self, and this precisely what it is - as your boasting in Christ is in reality saying "look at me, I am spiritual". I have no idea what God has or has not done in your personal life. But I do know you have no idea what God's Word teache as that is manifest clearly.

I confronted your doctrine. I did not attack your person. You simply could not defend your doctrine and so you turn to attacking, making false accusations against my person. This is the calling card of demonic leadership.

 

[The Biblicist]

"I simply do not boast of what God has done in my life and through me"

Can't boast and praise God? You have nothing to testify of. Yours is reading the book of how to walk, but never walking. Get walkin brotha!

Here is how ridiculous your accuations are:

1. I obviously do not practice miracle, sign and wonder gifts as I take the position they have ceased.

2. You on the other hand are claiming that the practice of such is the only measure of manifest spirituality in or through a person - contrary to the Apostle's words in 1 Cor. 3:1-3 I might add.

3. According to your standard, John the Baptist and the vast majority of saints prior to Pentecost were not "spiritual" , and never could be, as they too could not have practiced post-pentecostal gifts.

This is how nonsensical your argument is. In addition your whole argument is refuted by Paul in 1 Cor. 3:1-3 where he explicitly denies that the very basis you demand for spirituality is precisely what the Corinthians did manifest but yet they were NOT SPIRITUAL but carnal. Hence, manifest miraculous gifts do not indicate a person is spiritual at all.

1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

 

[Yeshua1]

Praying in tongues is very powerful. One reason is it is not me but the Holy Spirit who knows what to pray. The results are continual. If you haven't been baptized in the Holy Ghost, results will be rare.

Where in the NT though after pentacost are we instructed to get "baptized in the Holy Ghost" though?

And doesn't the Holy Spirit intercede before throne of God and Christ for ALL believers, as that is one of His primary tasks?

And do you see there is power in our faith, or is it the object of our faith?

You can speak in tongues until you turn blue and pass out, and that will NOT cause God to do anything against His will!

 

[Yeshua1]

You spout head knowledge but never a testimony of what prayer does in your life. Without the Spirit you have no results, or it would be one of the main things you would speak of, giving the glory to God. You simply do not have an effective prayer life, the Holy Spirit is not manifesting. When you claim the gifts stopped, that would include knowledge also. The devil has not stopped, God did not take away our gifts. You are not spiritual minded enough to accept that. That which is perfect has not arrived yet. Ask Jesus when you are alone to baptize you with fire. Then you will have some proof.

How can he ask God to get something that there is NO evidence God is still granting now?

And is the Bible itself not sufficient, nor the person of the Holy Spirit any more?

 

[JonC]

I have a friend (actually, a friend of my mother) who dealt with this issue. When it came up in a study she mentioned that she was astonished that she spoke in tongues once during private prayer. That confession meant, of course, that she was forbidden to continue teaching her class at the church (she had been a Sunday School teacher for years).

 

[The Biblicist]

I have a friend (actually, a friend of my mother) who dealt with this issue. When it came up in a study she mentioned that she was astonished that she spoke in tongues once during private prayer. That confession meant, of course, that she was forbidden to continue teaching her class at the church (she had been a Sunday School teacher for years).

thank God for churches who remove those from leadership who would lead others astray. Do mean she did not seek the baptism in the Spirit, and so she spoke in ecstatic utterances with no connection to any seeking of the baptism in the Spirit? No influence by anyone who believed and sought that kind of experience? She simply broke out in ecstatic utterances without any influence from anyone or anything she had been with or read?

 

[JonC]

thank God for churches who remove those who would lead others astray.

Biblically denounce her "experience."

She mentioned that she didn't understand "tongues," or its role if any today. But that during a time of prayer at a difficult point in her life she found herself speaking in tongues. She did not advocate speaking in tongues and she never spoke in tongues at church (or anywhere except that time in prayer). This had nothing to do with "baptism of the Spirit" (she was an older lady who had professed Christ for decades).

BTW...I would agree with you if she had been teaching a "tongues" doctrine, but this was not the case. She mentioned it in a class along with some other adults.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblically denounce her "experience."

That is simple. The Pentecost experience was known languages and that is stated three explicit times where the terms "dialektos" (dialects) and "glossa" are found to describe only known human languages. There is no other case in the book of Acts that contradicts this Pentecostal definition.

The practice at the church of Corinth was not condoned but condemned and linked with demonic activity (1 Cor. 12:1-3) as Satan, rather than God is the "author of confusion" and it was confusion that characterized their use of gifts (1 Cor. 14:33).

The context of 1 Cor. 12-14 is repeatedly stated to be the assembly. In the assembly when tongues are used without interpretation it is "unknown" (1 Cor. 14:2) to all but God because it was never designed for use in the assembly (1 Cor. 14:19) or for the personal use for believers (1 Cor. 14:20-22) but for the unbelieving Jews as a "sign" that their Messiah had come, and a sign that rejection would conclude in Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles (Isa. 28:10-17). Paul used tongues more than they all (1 Cor. 14:18) but not in the church (1 Cor. 14:19) and not for personal edification (1 Cor. 14:20-22) but on the mission field as he always went to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles.

1 Cor. 13:8 uses the middle voice for the time when tongues would cease, thus "cease of themselves" while the revelatory gifts of knowledge and prophecy would be stopped by the very revelation they were designed to bring into maturity (v. 11) the completed direct revelation (v. 12) in the written Biblical canon.

However, tongues ceased when God's purpose for it as a "sign" ceased with the destruction of Jerusalem. This is the mature understanding of the gift of Biblical tongues (1 Cor. 14;20-22).

What has been pawned off as "tongues" is ecstatic utterances, which were in use prior to New Testament times, during New Testament Times, Post New Testament times and can be found currently by the new 1901 charismatic movement, in addition to Hindu's, African religions, Mormons, etc.

 

[Revmitchell]

Private prayer language is not real. People who say they have or are doing it are either lying or possessed. The knuckleheaded stuff people call tongues that goes on in churches during worship services is an abomination to God and is as fake as the day is long.

 

[JonC]

That is simple. The Pentecost experience was known languages and that is stated three explicit times where the terms "dialektos" (dialects) and "glossa" are found to describe only known human languages. There is no other case in the book of Acts that contradicts this Pentecostal definition.

The practice at the church of Corinth was not condoned but condemned and linked with demonic activity (1 Cor. 12:1-3) as Satan, rather than God is the "author of confusion" and it was confusion that characterized their use of gifts (1 Cor. 14:33).

The context of 1 Cor. 12-14 is repeatedly stated to be the assembly. In the assembly when tongues are used without interpretation it is "unknown" (1 Cor. 14:2) to all but God because it was never designed for use in the assembly (1 Cor. 14:19) or for the personal use for believers (1 Cor. 14:20-22) but for the unbelieving Jews as a "sign" that their Messiah had come, and a sign that rejection would conclude in Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles (Isa. 28:10-17). Paul used tongues more than they all (1 Cor. 14:18) but not in the church (1 Cor. 14:19) and not for personal edification (1 Cor. 14:20-22) but on the mission field as he always went to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles.

1 Cor. 13:8 uses the middle voice for the time when tongues would cease, thus "cease of themselves" while the revelatory gifts of knowledge and prophecy would be stopped by the very revelation they were designed to bring into maturity (v. 11) the completed direct revelation (v. 12) in the written Biblical canon.

However, tongues ceased when God's purpose for it as a "sign" ceased with the destruction of Jerusalem. This is the mature understanding of the gift of Biblical tongues (1 Cor. 14;20-22).

What has been pawned off as "tongues" is ecstatic utterances, which were in use prior to New Testament times, during New Testament Times, Post New Testament times and can be found currently by the new 1901 charismatic movement, in addition to Hindu's, African religions, Mormons, etc.

What was going on in Corinth was not tongues involved in private prayer. I am not sure that you are linking the completion of the written canon to tongues, or only to knowledge and prophecy. If you are, keep in mind that this is not the only biblical understanding.

Personally, I think her experience was natural resulting from the sincere, emotional, and pleading nature of her prayer (I believe that the gift has ended). But then again, the instance was praying in tongues - privately. So while I may doubt her interpretation of what she experienced, I don't doubt her experience (nor do I attribute it to Satan). I certainly doubt it enough to dismiss a faithful and godly lady from teaching.

 

[The Biblicist]

What was going on in Corinth was not tongues involved in private prayer.

So where in God's word can you find "tongues" linked with private prayer??? It can't be found in the book of Acts and that is the inspired history of the churches. It can't be found in Romans 8:26-27 as that praying is impossible to be "uttered" by humans and tongues is an utterance from the mouth of humans, and nothing is said about tongues in that context or even in the list of gifts in Romans 12.

I am not sure that you are linking the completion of the written canon to tongues, or only to knowledge and prophecy.

Linking it with knowledge and prophecy as these are both revelatory gifts designed to impart and understand what is imparted by revelation.

Have you ever studied the Biblical purpose for miracles, signs and wonders? In every case it is to CONFIRM the revealed word of God. That is why the last times apostate apostlic signs and wonder movement is called "lying" wonders as these miracles signs and wonders counterfit God's confirming method but it confirms FALSE doctrine.

If you are, keep in mind that this is not the only biblical understanding.

yes, every weird off the wall interpretation under the sun is out there.

(I believe that the gift has ended).

However, ecstatic utterances have not ended and they are plentiful and among Christian cults and among Pentecostals who deny the true God of the Bible and pervert the gospel as well as Mormon apostles and other world religions.

But then again, the instance was praying in tongues - privately. So while I may doubt her interpretation of what she experienced, I don't doubt her experience (nor do I attribute it to Satan). I certainly doubt it enough to dismiss a faithful and godly lady from teaching.

ecstatic utterances are not necessarily demonic in origin, although they can be. They can simply be experienced by emotional intensity where the mind control over the speech aspect of the brain is disconnected. It can be produced by pyschologists in the labratory under the right emotional conditions.

 

[Yeshua1]

Biblically denounce her "experience."

She mentioned that she didn't understand "tongues," or its role if any today. But that during a time of prayer at a difficult point in her life she found herself speaking in tongues. She did not advocate speaking in tongues and she never spoke in tongues at church (or anywhere except that time in prayer). This had nothing to do with "baptism of the Spirit" (she was an older lady who had professed Christ for decades).

BTW...I would agree with you if she had been teaching a "tongues" doctrine, but this was not the case. She mentioned it in a class along with some other adults.

Thankfully she came to the right conclusion regarding her 'experience", pray to God that many trapped in the current Charasmatic chaos would do likewise.

 

[JonC]

So where in God's word can you find "tongues" linked with private prayer???

Romans 8:26 comes to mind.

yes, every weird off the wall interpretation under the sun is out there.

:thumbsup: Yes...some even view "that which is perfect" as referring to the completion of the canon of Scripture...then they turn around and accurately present the apostle as expecting a more immediate return of Christ - not looking to a collection of New Testament Scripture at all. Not only weird but inconsistent interpretations out there (but they mean well).