The Golden Rule of Hermeneutics

[Scripture More Accurately]

Instead of being snide how about answering the questions?
Do you think "same Jesus" necessarily demands "same in essence" (physical vs. non-physical)?
If yes, then how could Jesus be the same before the Incarnation and yet be non-physical?

Answer those and I will get to your Shibboleth.

Where does the Bible teach that the Jesus who ascended was "the same before the Incarnation and yet [was] non-physical"?

 

[George Antonios]

I guess your answering a question I did not ask is supposed to make me not notice you did not answer my two questions. I assume you have no answer for those.

And supposedly I am the slippery one.

More than mercury.

Your focus on this same Jesus was between you and @Martin Marprelate, not me.
I do think that, in context, this same Jesus relates to more than identity, but also substance, yes, but I also agree that that expression alone is not the strongest support.

Now, do you believe that Jesus ascended bodily (flesh and bones) into heaven, yes or no?

 

[Yeshua1]

Where does the Bible teach that the Jesus who ascended was "the same before the Incarnation and yet [was] non-physical"?

Sounds a lot like the JW view of jesus being "spiritually raised"

 

[kyredneck]

You are being quite deceitful

That's par for him, he lies in wait to strike ...

 

[kyredneck]

Zaccheus

John 3:1

 

[kyredneck]

Nor can one pretend that 'This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will return in the same manner as you saw Him go into heaven' really means, 'He will return in an entirely different manner than you saw Him go into heaven.'

Always with a physical body?:
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13

Physical body?:
1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. Isa 19

Physical body?:
64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26

Physical body?:
7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1

Don't you think you've about worn Acts 1:11 out Martin? You're wearisome with it. Your whole eschatology relies on your imagination of it.

 

[AVL1984]

I don't see what would prohibit him from coming back in the clouds in a human body. I don't find anywhere in the Bible where he necessarily has to be in "spirit form" when he comes back for those who believe in the Rapture, or when he comes to set up his kingdom. Seems to me he was in a human body when he was caught up into heaven in a cloud. Seems that some here forget that HE IS GOD, and he can do anything he wishes. Our intellect may not be able to fully get our heads around the concept, but it's entirely possible that he comes back in the human body he ascended into heaven in.

 

[George Antonios]

Physical body?:
1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. Isa 19

Yes, of course, it's a prophecy of the Lord Jesus Christ physically riding a literal cloud (of heaven) at his second coming.

 

[asterisktom]

Where does the Bible teach that the Jesus who ascended was "the same before the Incarnation and yet [was] non-physical"?

I can't make head nor tails of your sentence, but I suspect I'm agin it. Can you rephrase?

 

[Yeshua1]

I can't make head nor tails of your sentence, but I suspect I'm agin it. Can you rephrase?

Where did the bible state to us that Jesus went back to being no longer in a physical human body now?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I can't make head nor tails of your sentence, but I suspect I'm agin it. Can you rephrase?

My comment was in response to your previous comments:

Instead of being snide how about answering the questions?
Do you think "same Jesus" necessarily demands "same in essence" (physical vs. non-physical)?
If yes, then how could Jesus be the same before the Incarnation and yet be non-physical?

Answer those and I will get to your Shibboleth.

Concerning your third question in what I have quoted, when did Jesus claim that He was the same before the Incarnation as He was after the Incarnation?

 

[asterisktom]

My comment was in response to your previous comments:



Concerning your third question in what I have quoted, when did Jesus claim that He was the same before the Incarnation as He was after the Incarnation?

Are you trying to argue that He was a different Jesus before the Incarnation? Then you will have a problem with His saying, "Before Abraham was I AM".

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Are you trying to argue that He was a different Jesus before the Incarnation? Then you will have a problem with His saying, "Before Abraham was I AM".

John 8:58 does not establish that He was the same Jesus before the Incarnation. His assertion of preexistence does not equate to His preexisting as the same God-Man who He was after His Incarnation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

John 8:58 does not establish that He was the same Jesus before the Incarnation. His assertion of preexistence does not equate to His preexisting as the same God-Man who He was after His Incarnation.

Exactly so. He was not the God-Man before He became Man. He was the God-Man at the incarnation ('yesterday'); He was the God-man when He rose into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God ('today'), and He will be the God-man when He returns to set up the new heavens and the new earth ('and forever').

It may be helpful to look at Acts 1:11 again.
'This same Jesus who was taken from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'
This same, this very Jesus, houtos ho Iesus, the One whom they watched as He ascended into heaven (v.9), the One who had a material body, who ate and drank (Luke 24:38-43), who specifically declared that He was not a spirit (v.39), is coming back in the same manner as they saw Him go. Visibly and in a body, with clouds.

Continued discussion will get us nowhere; I'm finished on this thread. Only one other thing to cover.

I guess you have some slippery definition for what our Lord meant by "this generation" and "soon".

You obviously have no idea what I believe because you don't read my posts. I have given my understanding on this to you and others several times in the past.

 

[asterisktom]

John 8:58 does not establish that He was the same Jesus before the Incarnation. His assertion of preexistence does not equate to His preexisting as the same God-Man who He was after His Incarnation.

You miss the point again. I am not speaking of designation or identity. I am saying - again - that one cannot use the phrase "this same Jesus" form Acts 1:11 to prove that just because He went up physically does not mean He was to come back physically. No, He was not the God-Man before the Incarnation. But He was and is Jesus.

"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”" - John 8:58

And, as KyRedneck pointed out, we also have Heb. 13:

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever."

Jesus was Himself long before He had a physical body. So, if someone wants to prove CHrist returns in a physical body he has to find that proof elaewhere, not Acts 1:11.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You miss the point again. I am not speaking of designation or identity. I am saying - again - that one cannot use the phrase "this same Jesus" form Acts 1:11 to prove that just because He went up physically does not mean He was to come back physically. No, He was not the God-Man before the Incarnation. But He was and is Jesus.

"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”" - John 8:58

And, as KyRedneck pointed out, we also have Heb. 13:

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever."

Jesus was Himself long before He had a physical body. So, if someone wants to prove CHrist returns in a physical body he has to find that proof elaewhere, not Acts 1:11.

You are not handling those verses correctly. Yes, Jesus of Nazareth was the One who was speaking in John 8:58, but He did not say, "Before Abraham was, I am Jesus of Nazareth."

As for Heb. 13:8, it is false to say that the statement, "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday" means that He was Jesus Christ prior to the Incarnation. He was not the man Christ Jesus before the Incarnation:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

He was not Jesus Christ prior to the Incarnation.

 

[asterisktom]

You are not handling those verses correctly. Yes, Jesus of Nazareth was the One who was speaking in John 8:58, but He did not say, "Before Abraham was, I am Jesus of Nazareth."

As for Heb. 13:8, it is false to say that the statement, "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday" means that He was Jesus Christ prior to the Incarnation. He was not the man Christ Jesus before the Incarnation:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

He was not Jesus Christ prior to the Incarnation.

You have me saying things I never said.
OK. I am done. You have reading problems. This is my last comment to you. Waste of time.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You have me saying things I never said.
OK. I am done. You have reading problems. This is my last comment to you. Waste of time.

This is what you said earlier:

You miss the point again. I am not speaking of designation or identity. I am saying - again - that one cannot use the phrase "this same Jesus" form Acts 1:11 to prove that just because He went up physically does not mean He was to come back physically. No, He was not the God-Man before the Incarnation. But He was and is Jesus.

"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”" - John 8:58

And, as KyRedneck pointed out, we also have Heb. 13:

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever."

Jesus was Himself long before He had a physical body. So, if someone wants to prove CHrist returns in a physical body he has to find that proof elaewhere, not Acts 1:11.

No, He was not Jesus before the Incarnation. To say, "Jesus was Himself long before He had a physical body," is to equivocate with meaningless talk about Jesus being Himself before the Incarnation. He was not Jesus before the Incarnation.

 

[Jerome]

You have reading problems.

Hi, Scripture More Accurately. Welcome to the club:

your poor reading skills.

Do you even read what I write?

 

[asterisktom]

He was not Jesus Christ prior to the Incarnation.

I know I said I was done with this but I just have to ask you about this sentence. According to your belief, when did He become Jesus? Or when did He become Christ?