The Good News about Hell

[tamborine lady]

There is reason to fear God. The scripture says He is ABLE to destroy (if He wants to).

But He does not choose to.

Rev 14-11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

For ever and ever means what it says. They have no rest day or night. If they are destroyed, no rest day or night would not matter.

So what I'm saying is that God COULD destroy them, but He will not, rather they will burn for ETERNITY, always, for ever and ever.

Selah,

Tam

 

[Kamoroso]

The following definitions are from the Greek-English Lexicon.

ETERNAL-aionios-- lasting for an age. ( Age- as a period of individual existence. 1. That part of
the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time. ), perpetual,eternal, holding an office or title for life,perpetual.

I can no longer read the last word of three of the lines of the next definition, so I guess I will just have to leave them out.

EVER, as in forever-aion--period of existence, I. lifetime, life____ II. long space of time, an age,perpetual, all ones life long, for ever,_____ eternity, 2. space of time clearly defined and marked out,epoch,____this present world.

As is obvious from the above definitions, the words eternal, and forever, in the new testament, donot necessarily always mean what our English words denote. This means that it is possible, that whenspeaking of the punishment of the wicked, the words eternal, and forever, may really mean something more like, until the duration of, or, all their life long. Considering this, and the fact that there are many scriptures that conclusively state that sin and sinners will come to an end, I am
convicted that these scriptures are correct. The only other option is to believe that the scriptures contradict themselves. If I were to believe this, then I would not have any sure word to place my faith in.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Kamoroso:
The following definitions are from the Greek-English Lexicon.

ETERNAL-aionios-- lasting for an age. ( Age- as a period of individual existence. 1. That part of
the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time. ), perpetual,eternal, holding an office or title for life,perpetual.

I can no longer read the last word of three of the lines of the next definition, so I guess I will just have to leave them out.

EVER, as in forever-aion--period of existence, I. lifetime, life____ II. long space of time, an age,perpetual, all ones life long, for ever,_____ eternity, 2. space of time clearly defined and marked out,epoch,____this present world.

As is obvious from the above definitions, the words eternal, and forever, in the new testament, donot necessarily always mean what our English words denote. This means that it is possible, that whenspeaking of the punishment of the wicked, the words eternal, and forever, may really mean something more like, until the duration of, or, all their life long. Considering this, and the fact that there are many scriptures that conclusively state that sin and sinners will come to an end, I am
convicted that these scriptures are correct. The only other option is to believe that the scriptures contradict themselves. If I were to believe this, then I would not have any sure word to place my faith in.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith.

Let me see if I get this clear, Kamoroso.
Are you saying that 'eternal and forever' is relative to a person's lifetime on earth, and therefore eternal torment in hell is actually for any individual's lifetime on earth ?

And that is the same thing as eternal salvation ?

Please explain further.

Thank you.

 

[Grasshopper]

For ever and ever means what it says. They have no rest day or night. If they are destroyed, no rest day or night would not matter.

So what I'm saying is that God COULD destroy them, but He will not, rather they will burn for ETERNITY, always, for ever and ever.

Then who is being destroyed in this passage?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Secondly you must believe immortality is given to the lost as well as those in Christ. Correct?

 

[tamborine lady]

You have to understand that SDA have to make it say what they want it to so they can believe what they have been taught.

Kamaroso is SDA. They think God could not possibly mean what He says when He says FOREVER.

I'll let Kam answer but you won't like the silly answer, Pinoybaptist.

Peace,

Tam

 

[Jim1999]

As with any language, there is an inherent danger in trying to understand it one word at a time without a knowledge of the various nuances, grammatical construction and period meaning.

I see this time and time again when people refer to lexicons for their interpretation of passages. For this reason we have hermeneutics and those rules of interpretation.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[BobRyan]

Correction: Matt 10-28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There is no reason to FEAR Him who is ABLE to destroy - but who NEVER DOES!

Originally posted by Grasshopper:

So you both are of the opinion that God doesn't destroy the lost man?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Does the word "able" indicate to you He could if He wanted, but He doesn't want to?

Nope.

I think He is making the point about "Destroying BOTH body and soul in hell fire" in Matt 10 because God really does do that -- it is not a hollow threat.

I am not sure how you got my post as saying I do not believe that. Maybe I was unclear in my response to someone who does not believe that God will destroy BOTH body and soul in hell fire.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Kamoroso]

My point is simple. The Greek Lexicon is the source for defining the words of the New Testament. The definition of the Greek pertaining to the words ever, as in forever, and eternal, includes meanings that the English use of these words does not. The words can mean until the duration of, or a lifetime. Considering the fact that the bible is filled with references to the wicked coming to a complete end, one of these definitions would more accurately describe what is being said in reference to the wicked being punished eternally. Either that, or the bible contradicts itself. This is not to mention the fact, that the bible gives us an example of what eternal fire does, in the burning of Sodom, and Gomorrha. Notice the following.

Jude 1 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha no longer exist, they were completely destroyed by eternal fire.
The above verses are telling us that Sodom and Gomorrha are our examples of what eternal fire does. These cities are set forth as an example of suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. They no longer exist. They were completely burned up. This is a no brainer.


The scriptures are filled with texts referring to the wicked coming to a complete end.

Isaiah 33 10Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself. 11Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you. 12And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
13Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might. 14The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;


Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.


2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Ps 37:20 20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Mal 4:1-3 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.


The following prophecy is a dual prophecy about the king of Tyrus, and Satan. According to this prophecy, Satan himself will come to a complete end, and never exist again.

Ezek 28:11-22 11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

[Kamoroso]

CHAP. 5 THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL

We shall begin this chapter with a biblical examination of the doctrine of the immortality of the soul.

1 Tim 6:14-16

As is obvious, from the above scriptures, if God alone has immortality, then the human soul cannot. The idea that every human being that is born into the world will exist for eternity from that point on, wether in the flesh, or in some other form, is not biblical.

I Jn 5:10-12
God has given us eternal life through his Son. This is not something we posses in and of ourselves, but only as we believe in the Son of God. The Lord Jesus Christ, who became one of us, is also verily God, and therefore immortal. If we attach ourselves to him, then we to have immortatlity( Rom. 6:5-11 )

John 3:14-16

per•ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per•ished, per•ish•ing, per•ish•es. --intr. 1. To die or be
destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually.

The contrast made in the above verses cannot be mistaken. Those who believe in the Son of man will not perish, but will have eternal life. To perish, is to die, to be destroyed, to pass from existence. This truth is repeated two times in a row by the Son of God. The opposite of eternal life, is death, which is non existence.

1 Cor 15:51-54
The apostle Paul points out clearly when the saved will receive immortality. It is at the resurrection, that is the second coming of Christ, that the saved will receive immortality.

Death is swallowed up in victory, when the dead are raised and changed from mortal to immortal at the second coming... A biblical doctrine must be based upon the scriptures as a whole, not just a few verses here and there.

1 Cor 15:16-26

Here again, the apostle Paul makes it clear, that if their is no resurrection, then all who have fallen asleep, (or died) in Christ are perished... Either the scriptures which we have been discussing are a lie, or the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a lie.

Rom 6:22-23

Verse twenty three brings out the contrast again, which cannot be mistaken. The wages of sin is death, which is non existence, not eternal life in hell. On the contrary, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gen 2:16-17
Gen 3:1-5 1
This is the issue at hand. Is God a liar, or is Satan a liar? What do you think? The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is nothing more than the perpetuation of the first lie which Satan told to the human race.

Those who accept this lie as the truth are calling God a liar, as the Devil did, and does continiually, for he is the father of lies.

God alone has immortality. The original sin of Satan was that he wanted to be God, in his place.

Isa 14:12-15
Satan is the father of this mind set. He is the original one who wanted to be like God, without being in submission to God. He wanted to be God. Therefore he loves and perpetuates the lie of the immortality of the soul.
The following scriptures are a dual prophecy concerning the king of tyrus and Satan.

Ezek 28:12-19
Satan himself will be no more. So will be the fate of all who refuse the gift which God is offering them through his Son. Do not allow Satan to seperate you from Christ, through whom you have etrnal life, by believeing this doctrine of the church of Rome.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

[Keith, your posts are too long. I have a suspicion that you are simply copying and pasting them without giving credit which is plagiarism. That is unacceptable, and against BB rules. I have deleted all the verses and left the references, for we all can look up the verses on our own. I have left summaries of your main points. Please give credit for your sources in the future]

[ September 29, 2005, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[tamborine lady]

If it's so simple, why did it take you all that space to say it?

 

[Melanie]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
Good news about Hell? If this were the case, one could justify living like the devil in this world cos the worst we can expect is death and it happens anyway. All those years preaching the gospel down the tubes. Just another misguided application of scriptures, or perhaps, wishful thinking that we can escape the sure and just punishment for sinful mankind.

Cheers,


Jim [/QUOTE
Agree with Jim here, why in all that we hold sacred would Jesus become man to suffer and die such a hideous and degrading death to redeem sinful humanity from Hell if it was not that bad.

The concept is so purile it beggars the intelligence.

 

[Grasshopper]

Agree with Jim here, why in all that we hold sacred would Jesus become man to suffer and die such a hideous and degrading death to redeem sinful humanity from Hell if it was not that bad.

The concept is so purile it beggars the intelligence.

So the gift of eternal and everlasting Life is not enough?

 

[Grasshopper]

I think He is making the point about "Destroying BOTH body and soul in hell fire" in Matt 10 because God really does do that -- it is not a hollow threat.

I agree, then the question becomes, “what does destroy mean”? Jim doesn’t seem to want to use a lexicon for a definition so perhaps you can give me your definition.

I am not sure how you got my post as saying I do not believe that. Maybe I was unclear in my response to someone who does not believe that God will destroy BOTH body and soul in hell fire.

Here is what you said:

There is no reason to FEAR Him who is ABLE to destroy - but who NEVER DOES!

Tam Lady doesn’t believe God will destroy both body and soul in Hell,He is just able to. Your response led me to believe you had the same view.

 

[Chemnitz]

apoleisi(sp)(1) active ruin, destroy; (a) of persons destroy, kill, bring to ruin (MT 2.13); (b) with an impersonal object destroy, bring to nothing (1C 1.19); (c) of a reward lose, be deprived of (MT 10.42), opposite thre,w (maintain, keep);
-Friberg

Simple it means to destroy. But this verse on its own does not prove that Hell is not eternal. Other verses such as those found in Revelation, the Kingdom parables, and others give credence to view that Hell is eternal punishment.

 

[Grasshopper]

Simple it means to destroy. But this verse on its own does not prove that Hell is not eternal. Other verses such as those found in Revelation, the Kingdom parables, and others give credence to view that Hell is eternal punishment.

If one is destroyed/annihilated, is that not an eternal and everlasting punishment?

 

[Kamoroso]

I said my point was simple, not that finding the truth was simple. This world is filled with deception. The Devil and his angels are ever active to deceive. We are not even capable of understanding the truths of God’s word without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. Without question, the word of is our guide to all truth. Thus, I always supply as much scripture as possible to back up what I believe the Holy Spirit has revealed to me as the truths of God’s word.

Acts 17 10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Perhaps it means nothing to you to just pick, and choose between scriptures that seem to contradict themselves, believing one, and ignoring the other. This does not work for me. If the word of God contradicts itself, then it is not the reliable source of truth that it claims to be. If you are so sure that I am wrong tamborine lady, then please be so kind as to explain to me, the meaning of those scriptures which I have shared, that contradict what you claim the bible teaches.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

[El_Guero]

Rev 20:14 -15 ...

 

[Claudia_T]

The apostle Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, foretold the great apostasy which would result in the establishment of the papal power. He declared that the day of Christ should not come, "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." And furthermore, the apostle warns his brethren that "the mystery of iniquity doth already work." 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4, 7. Even at that early time, Paul saw, making way into the church, errors that were preparing the way for the development of the papacy.

"The mystery of iniquity" carried forward its evil and deceptive work. The practices and customs of heathenism found their way into the Christian church. The spirit of compromise and conformity came into the church and in place of God's the requirement, she substituted human theories and traditions

Pagan philosophy and the teachings of heathen philosophers gained an influence, the people were urged to use upon others as a means of extending their influence among the heathen. And thus, serious errors were thus introduced into the Christian faith. One of these errors was the belief in man's natural immortality and his consciousness in death. This doctrine was the foundation upon which Rome established the invocation of saints and the adoration of the Virgin Mary. From this was born the heresy of eternal torment for the finally unrepentent, and these ideas were incorporated into the papal faith.

By this the way was prepared for the introduction of still another invention of paganism, which was "purgatory", used terrify the superstitious multitudes. Supposedly there was the existence of a place of torment, in which the souls of such as have not merited eternal damnation are to suffer punishment for their sins, and from which, when freed from impurity, they are then finally admitted to heaven.


But God never promised Adam immortality in his disobedience... it was the great deceiver who in the form of a serpent declared to Eve in Eden--"Ye shall not surely die"--which was the first sermon ever preached upon the natural immortality of the soul. But this declaration, resting solely upon the authority of Satan, is echoed from the pulpits of Christianity. The divine sentence, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20), is made to mean: The soul that sinneth, it shall not die, but live eternally.

If after his fall man been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24). so that there would not be an immortal sinner.

But after the Fall, Satan has made a special effort to perpetuate the belief in man's natural immortality; the people were led to conclude that the sinner would live in eternal misery. Now the Satan represents God as a revengeful tyrant, declaring that He plunges into hell all those who do not please Him, and causes them ever to feel His wrath; and that while they suffer unutterable anguish and writhe in the eternal flames, their Creator looks down upon them with satisfaction.

In this way, Satan is able to clothe with his own attributes the Creator of mankind. Cruelty is satanic.

The human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. Christianity is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels.

The theory of eternal torment is one of the false doctrines that constitute the wine of the abomination of Babylon, of which she makes all nations drink. Revelation 14:8; 17:2. If we turn from the testimony of God's word, and accept false doctrines because our fathers taught them, we fall under the condemnation pronounced upon Babylon; we are drinking of the wine of her abomination.

It is a wonder that the "Protestant" Churches condemn the Roman Catholic Church for going by "tradition" instead of soley on the Word of God, while at the same time a great majority of the Protestant world have adopted the false Sunday pagan Sabbath from Rome, along with this idea of natural immortality of the soul, originally coming from the Greeks. They condemn the Catholics for their purgatory doctrine and not only that but praying to the virgin Mary, when they temselves help perpetuate the lie that the dead are now either in heaven or being tormented forever in hell. But the Bible teaches the dead are DEAD in the grave until the second coming of Christ.


The theory of the immortality of the soul was one of those false doctrines that Rome, borrowing from paganism, incorporated into the religion of Christendom. Martin Luther classed it with the "monstrous fables that form part of the Roman dunghill of decretals."--E. Petavel, The Problem of Immortality, page 255. Commenting on the words of Solomon in Ecclesiastes, that the dead know not anything, the Reformer says: "Another place proving that the dead have no . . . feeling. There is, saith he, no duty, no science, no knowledge, no wisdom there. Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute."-- Martin Luther, Exposition of Solomon's Booke Called Ecclesiastes, page 152.


"They allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appear, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." Martin Luther, Augsburg Confession of Faith, art. 28.

 

[Claudia_T]

Pay special attention to this part: "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Because of people keep trifling with God's Word and refuse to listen when it comes to the Commandments, the Sabbath, the State of the Dead and Eternal Torment in Hell when people keep trying to tell you the truth about these things, God is going to allow you to go on your way and be deceived. And I can understand why He would feel that way. Because I feel the same way myself. You are just leaving yourself wide open for the deceptions of the Papacy. Please go read my recent topic on the Mark of the Beast and its simplicity.


2 Thess 2:
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Claudia

 

[DHK]

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
There will be a second resurrection where all the unsaved will stand before the Great White Throne Judgement, and receive their final sentence of eternal condmenation in the lake of fire which burns forever and ever. Of course there is a reason why it burns forever and ever. Rev.20:10 specifically says
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The devil, beast, and false prophet, shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. They will not be annihilated. They will suffer eternal torment.
Verse 15--so is the fate of every unsaved person.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The word destroy in Mat. 20:28 simply means "to render inoperable." If I give a computer to my son, as a gift. And the CPU becomes defective, or he spills coffee all over the computer, or a virus wipes out the hard drive, etc. the computer is rendered inoperable. For all intents and purposes it is detroyed. It cannot be used. All the parts are still there. But they no longer can work in harmony. And man will no longer be in harmony with God. He will be separted forever. He will have all of his parts--his resurrected body--but will be separated forever from God--the one who keeps that body working in harmony. What will be missing is that vital CPU--the Spirit that is able to communicate with God. In that way he is rendered inoperable and must suffer eternal torment.
DHK