Originally posted by BobRyan:
In Matt 10 Christ goes beyond simply "kill" -- He goes to the point of "destroy" --
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Man is able to kill the body. He is unable to kill, harm, destroy, or touch the soul in any way. Here is one instance where the soul is used interchangeably with the spirit. Jesus is speaking of the spiritual part of man, that part of man that will live forever--both in the saved and in the unsaved. He made each and every man a spiritual being just like the angels in heaven. Man is not like the animals. He is of a greater order. He is a spirit being clothed with a fleshly body for a temporary period of time. Someday he will shed that fleshly body (2Cor.5:1-5). The spirit, both saved and unsaved will live forever. The spirit's bodies, both saved and unsaved will be raised again in two separate resurrections.
Man is not able to kill the soul, or do anything to it. It is not in his sphere to do so.
But rather fear God who is able to who is able to "destroy" both body and soul in hell.
That the destruction here does not refer to annihiliation is quite obvious. Though the body will return to ashes (2nd law of Thermodynamics) it will never be destroyed, nor can it be. It is just changed to another substance awaiting the resurrection. Then at the resurrection the body will be raised. It will be raised in such a way that it will be able to stand before the Amighty presence of our Holy God, something it could not do in its earthly body without immediately dying. Thus the body of the unsaved will have changed to some degree. It will also be a different body, just as the saved body will be different in its glorified state. The "dead" will stand before God. The dead will be united with their spirit--that very spirit which had previously been in Hell, some for centuries. They will all--both spirit and body together stand before God. This is what a resurrection is. What do you define a resurrection as? The resurrection always refers to the body--always!
The DEAD will stand before God--The dead--their bodies united with their spirits, standing before a holy and righteous God, awaiting their final sentence of eternal punishment of being cast into the Lake of Fire where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev.20:10,15). There is no more clearer teaching on the subject than that. "Shall be tormented day and night forever and ever" What do you think those words mean???
No one can annihilate a spirit. God created spirits to last forever. And they do. Spirits are not annihilited. See Jude 6,7. They will suffer eternal punishment, but they will not be annihiliated. That is an impossibility. The word means to render inoperable, as the fallen angels in Genesis 6 were when they were cast into outer darkness, put into chains, awaiting their sentence of eternal judgement. They will not be annihilated but suffer eternal punishment. They are still suffering for their sin of abomination with strange flesh in the days of Noah. And they will suffer eternally. We also are spirit beings. And the unsaved will suffer eternally for the rejection of the Son of God. To destroy does not mean to annihilate.
In Rev 14 we see that the saints will be right there IN the presence of the Lamb - and will be there to witness the torment of the wicked IN THE PRESENCE of the LAMB!
Rev 14
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 ""And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.''
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
So the two points are FIRST - that the wicked are DESTORYED -- both in physical body AND in soul in hell fire, and SECOND that this all takes place in the immediate presence of the Lamb and those with the Lamb (which are the saints according to Rev 14:1-6)
In Christ,
Bob
So what is your point? Whether the saints are present to witness the Great White Throne Judgement or not is irrelevant. It is a red herring. Your use of the passage in Rev.14 is also out of context. It is directed to those that are on earth. Look again:
9. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, [b["If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,[/b]
10. The same shall dring of the wine of the wrath of God whichi s pored without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence fo the lamb."
I see no contradiction in what I have already said. The dead will be judged. They will be sentenced to eternal punishment in the Lake of fire forever. There is nothing in the Bible that contradicts that.
DHK