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"The Good Pleasure of His Will"

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Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
"Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell?"

Many of you here have indicated that you have no predisposition against the proposition that "Jesus is The Savior", which is good, because, "Jesus is The Savior".

So, for those of you that are open to allowing God to Be God, at The Good Pleasure of His Will:

This is a quote from a Bible Believer, that has some Historical knowledge which we may add to our Scriptural and Grammatical understanding, of I John 2, Verse 2

References at:
1 John 2 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition on the Whole Bible

"And he is the propitiation for our sins",..

.. For the sins of us who now believe, and are Jews:

and not for ours only; but for the sins of Old Testament saints, and of those who shall hereafter believe in Christ, and of the Gentiles also, signified in the next clause:

"but also for the sins of the whole world";

the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles עלמא, "the world"; and כל העולם, "the whole world";

and אומות העולם, "the nations of the world" F12;

See Gill on ; and the word "world" is so used in Scripture;
see John 3:16;

and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that אין להן כפרה, "there is no propitiation for them"F13: and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say F14,

"it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, כולי עלמא, "the whole world" went after him;'

which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere F15 it is said,

"amle ylwk, "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";'

which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place F16,

"amle ylwk, "the whole world" fell on their faces,
but Raf did not fall on his face;'

where it means no more than the congregation.
Once more, it is said F17, when

"R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), כולי עלמא, "the whole world" stood up before him;'

that is, the people in the synagogue:
to which may be added F18,

"when a great man makes a mourning, כולי עלמא, "the whole world" come to honour him;'

i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, כולי עלמא לא פליגי, "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent F19; כולי עלמא סברי, "the whole world" are of opinion F20, are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed;

yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world" F21, only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luke 2:1;

and so it is in this epistle, 1 John 5:19;

where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs:

so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it;

moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, 1 John 2:1;

but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for John 17:9, and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell?

Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case.

In what sense Christ is a propitiation; see Gill on Romans 3:25.

The Jews have no notion of the Messiah as a propitiation or atonement; sometimes they say F23 repentance atones for all sin;
sometimes the death of the righteous F24;
sometimes incense F25;
sometimes the priests' garments F26;
sometimes it is the day of atonement F1;

and indeed they are in the utmost puzzle about atonement; and they even confess in their prayers F2, that they have now neither altar nor priest to atone for them;

See Gill on 1 John 4:10.
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
1 John 2:1 provides the context

(and from Gill's observation, with John 17:9, this is the short version you may want to note in your Bible):

In 1 John 2:1

"for whom Christ is a Propitiation He is also an Advocate,
1 John 2:1;

but He is not an Advocate for every individual person in the world;

yea, there is a world He will not pray for John 17:9,

and consequently is not a propitiation for them."
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hi Lodebar, anyone can claim this or that view is a misapplication of the passage.
It is like saying "you are wrong" or "taint so." Unless the "misapplication" is explained, it is simply a deflection ploy.

Your quibble with Romans 5:19 is a distinction without a difference, to be made sinners or to be declared sinners, or to be caused to be sinners, or to be placed as sinners all have the same consequence, eternal separation from God.

Here is the NET version of John 3:18
Jhn 3:18
The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Before you believed in Christ, and before God credited that belief as righteousness, you were condemned (judged) for you unbelief. You were an unforgiven sinner from conception to redemption.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Every verse that shows a certain viewpoint to be bogus has been rewritten, reinterpreted, or otherwise nullified, by the advocates of the bogus viewpoint.
In 1 John 2:2, the "us" refers to believers, and the whole world refers to everybody else, all of fallen mankind.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. These false teachers will infiltrate your midst with destructive heresies, even to the point of denying the Master who bought them. As a result, they will bring swift destruction on themselves.

Even those never to be saved, have been bought, thus Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for those saved or to be saved, and those not saved and never to be saved.
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Hi Lodebar, anyone can claim this or that view is a misapplication of the passage.
It is like saying "you are wrong" or "taint so." Unless the "misapplication" is explained, it is simply a deflection ploy.

Your quibble with Romans 5:19 is a distinction without a difference, to be made sinners or to be declared sinners, or to be caused to be sinners, or to be placed as sinners all have the same consequence, eternal separation from God.

Here is the NET version of John 3:18
Jhn 3:18
The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Before you believed in Christ, and before God credited that belief as righteousness, you were condemned (judged) for you unbelief. You were an unforgiven sinner from conception to redemption.

WHO CONDEMNED ME? I am condemned. Who condemned me as I am a man?
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Take a guess, Sir. Some man or men? Satan or his demons? God?
Jesus said God said all judgemt was given to the son
Jhn 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Jesus said He did not judge man
Jhn 8:15
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.


So I was not condemned as a man, but yet I am condemned,

I, We , were not condemned as men, that is how I know Romans 5 19 is misapplied because we were condemned NOT AS MAN, or not after Adam, or as mankind.We are condemned as spiritual sinful beings,

don't be critical to those you don't understand
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
1 John 2:1 provides the context

(and from Gill's observation, with John 17:9, this is the short version you may want to note in your Bible):

In 1 John 2:1

"for whom Christ is a Propitiation He is also an Advocate,
1 John 2:1;

but He is not an Advocate for every individual person in the world;

yea, there is a world He will not pray for John 17:9,

and consequently is not a propitiation for them."


2Pe 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, notwilling that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jesus said God said all judgemt was given to the son
Jhn 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Jesus said He did not judge man
Jhn 8:15
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.


So I was not condemned as a man, but yet I am condemned,

I, We , were not condemned as men, that is how I know Romans 5 19 is misapplied because we were condemned NOT AS MAN, or not after Adam, or as mankind.We are condemned as spiritual sinful beings,

don't be critical to those you don't understand
I see ten lines of text, but I did not see where you answered the question. Is it ok to be critical of obfuscation?
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Deflection to the unimportant,..... yes it is proper because God hath not made His Word obscure, We have an obligation to Truth

I cant remember the name of the doctrine that has scripture is given to me known, Do you know the name?

Why would God give a message to us, then keep us from knowing it?
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Still no answer from Lodebar, "WHO CONDEMNED ME?" Take a guess, Sir. Some man or men? Satan or his demons? God?

You would think anyone could answer that in a New York minute.
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Still no answer from Lodebar, "WHO CONDEMNED ME?" Take a guess, Sir. Some man or men? Satan or his demons? God?

You would think anyone could answer that in a New York minute.
Please provide your answer, I answered We were not condemned as man.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Basing your 'Salvation' on a misinterpretation of a word like 'all'?

Isn't that 'vague'.

They once were lost and now they are Saved
(is the explanation of the simple portion of your Passage, in Red).

The Bible Defends what it Teaches just fine.

There is no 'debate'.
"... we lived not as a chosen people during our lifetime" are not words that are Stated in 1 Peter 2:9-10 and nothing like that is Taught there.

Your objection to 'Election' is, '1 Peter 2:9-10
9 "But you are a chosen race..."

That's pretty clean...(?)
Strong work.
What a ignorant defining of the word "all"
All
ALL, a. awl. [Gr. Shemitic from calah, to be ended or completed to perfect.]
1. Every one, or the whole number of particulars.

Read it and weep because your interpretation is ludicrous..
MB
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Still no answer to the question "Who condemned me?" Obfuscation on display.
God did, but you were not a man, but the sinful spiritual being we call our "soul". We are not judged as flesh and blood. We are condemned before being human and sent to Hell after we die. Per scripture, flesh and blood are not judged but we are already condemned.

Humanity is a means of salvation ( one death for many) not condemnation

capeche?
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thanks for clearly answering the question, God condemned us to Hades (just our spirit) and Gehenna (body and soul) because we are sinners and had not obtained forgiveness through faith in Christ.

Your assertion that "flesh" (our physical body) is not sent to Gehenna is mistaken in my opinion. I believe Jesus taught that God destroys both the body and soul in Gehenna.
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
We need to understand we are in the place of the dead now. Jesus said" Let the dead bury their dead",

As condemned sinners , we are subject to further temptation in the cares of this world th send us early to the grave and our souls in hell for not recognizing the Gospel. We are already on death row in "place of the Dead,"

We know flesh cannot inherit Heaven and we will be be sent to Hell, but not as a men but spiritual sinners, as we were condemned. Humanity is a second chance for redemption not a failure by God
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Let us consider:
1) At Christ's second coming our bodies will not be changed, we will not be redeemed in glorified bodies. (the first resurrection)

2) After the 1000 year reign, the lost will not be bodily resurrected and face judgement and be thrown into the lake of fire.

I do not think too many will go along with this view!
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
I think you speculate heavily

1Co 15:52

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

is this your #1? or #2 explanation?
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
God did, but you were not a man, but the sinful spiritual being we call our "soul". We are not judged as flesh and blood. We are condemned before being human and sent to Hell after we die. Per scripture, flesh and blood are not judged but we are already condemned.

Humanity is a means of salvation ( one death for many) not condemnation

capeche?

This is actual Gnosticism, not biblical Christianity.

The Archangel
 
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