The Gospel According to Jesus

[JamesL]

allot of people do not understand LS because they do not want to carefully read a good book on the topic and very crucial to look up every passage or as many passages as possible which verify LS.

But John,
I have the book, and I raised some very valid concerns about the nature of faith about 40 posts ago, none of which have been addressed. You stated that you agree with the view that faith = believing facts, then when those facts are coupled with commitment it equals *saving faith*

Maybe it's time to address the nature of faith from scripture?

Do you rely upon James 2:19 for your fundamental understanding of faith?

 

[DHK]

Lets not derail this thread but I will state that allot of people do not understand LS because they do not want to carefully read a good book on the topic and very crucial to look up every passage or as many passages as possible which verify LS. I have been reading and using my Bible in one hand to look up verses. Mac is not the only defender of LS as it shows in Washer, Platt, John Frame, Robert Gentry, and also Ernest Reisinger and he published a book in 1982 that I just finished which defends LS.

If we can't come to a common definition of what LS is, why continue? It is hardly derailing the thread. We are simply talking past each other for each one defines LS differently as I just demonstrated.

Look up in "theopedia" what LS is. Whatever Theopedia is, it is very biased against anything that is not Reformed in nature. It has many inaccuracies in it, and I could never agree with what I read, and therefore never posted anything from it. It was one of the most biased sources I read.

Even our definitions of "faith" are different, aren't they?

 

[HungryInherit]

"But even demons believe!"
Riiight. I hear this from EVERY LS advocate. God did not send his son to die for demons. Why would salvation even be an option for non human beings? I grow so tired of reading that.

Hodges has already ripped Mac apart in his great book titled Absolutely Free!. As my grandpa would say, he made Mac go to the woods and cut a switch. I would send a copy to John but just like this thread, he would never read it when an open mind and open heart.

 

[DHK]

Paul Washer and Lordship Salvation:
https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/s...MQR2dGlkAw--?p=paul+washer+lordship+salvation

A reasoned reply is here:
http://expreacherman.com/2011/03/24/paul-washer-lordship-salvation-and-repentance/

http://expreacherman.com/2012/08/08...alvation-obliterating-assurance-of-salvation/

 

[JamesL]

"But even demons believe!"
Riiight. I hear this from EVERY LS advocate. God did not send his son to die for demons. Why would salvation even be an option for non human beings? I grow so tired of reading that.

In fairness, scripture does say that the demons believe, and I think the best response is a reasoned view of that entire passage instead of simply expressing disdain for the out-of-context use if it.

Not sure I will have time tonight, but I'll try to post one

 

[Thousand Hills]

A reasoned reply is here:
http://expreacherman.com/2011/03/24/paul-washer-lordship-salvation-and-repentance/

http://expreacherman.com/2012/08/08...alvation-obliterating-assurance-of-salvation/

ooh, another website where everyone else is virtually a heretic (of course I do agree with the WOF'ers), but they seem to throw a lot of names out there, even non cals. Even though he basically says that LS=Calvinism. Oh, and don't tell Evan this but he's got Ray Comfort listed as well.

http://expreacherman.com/wiki-heresies/

 

[DHK]

"But even demons believe!"
Riiight. I hear this from EVERY LS advocate. God did not send his son to die for demons. Why would salvation even be an option for non human beings? I grow so tired of reading that.

Faith is faith--trust, belief, confidence.
The most important part of faith is the object of faith. Faith always has an object.
There is a difference between knowledge and faith. In reference to the verse in James. The demons have knowledge about God. They believe he exists. But the object of their faith is in their leader, Satan, whom they sincerely believe will still overcome God. Satan and his legions are still deceived that in the end they will overcome. Thus the demons have Satan as the object of their faith.

 

[DHK]

ooh, another website where everyone else is virtually a heretic (of course I do agree with the WOF'ers), but they seem to throw a lot of names out there, even non cals. Even though he basically says that LS=Calvinism. Oh, and don't tell Evan this but he's got Ray Comfort listed as well.

http://expreacherman.com/wiki-heresies/

I just did a quick search. There were dozens of links. That one sounded well-reasoned and thought out. There are many more. Anyone can do a search.

 

[evangelist6589]

But John,
I have the book, and I raised some very valid concerns about the nature of faith about 40 posts ago, none of which have been addressed. You stated that you agree with the view that faith = believing facts, then when those facts are coupled with commitment it equals *saving faith*

Maybe it's time to address the nature of faith from scripture?

Do you rely upon James 2:19 for your fundamental understanding of faith?

Why do you ignore the rest of the book and think that a simple forward can answer all your questions?

 

[evangelist6589]

"But even demons believe!"
Riiight. I hear this from EVERY LS advocate. God did not send his son to die for demons. Why would salvation even be an option for non human beings? I grow so tired of reading that.

Hodges has already ripped Mac apart in his great book titled Absolutely Free!. As my grandpa would say, he made Mac go to the woods and cut a switch. I would send a copy to John but just like this thread, he would never read it when an open mind and open heart.

A New Age author sent me a personal email today and asking that I read her book. I replied and said I would read her book if she read Invasion of other gods which is a good rebuttal on the New Age movement. I have yet to hear a reply. So I will say to you. If you will honestly read Faith Works, Gospel According to jesus and such with an open mind, then I will read your book.

 

[evangelist6589]

In fairness, scripture does say that the demons believe, and I think the best response is a reasoned view of that entire passage instead of simply expressing disdain for the out-of-context use if it.

Not sure I will have time tonight, but I'll try to post one

The devils do indeed have a faith and I was reading what Reisinger said of that in my reading today and he affirmed it that the devils do indeed have faith, but its not saving faith.

 

[evangelist6589]

ooh, another website where everyone else is virtually a heretic (of course I do agree with the WOF'ers), but they seem to throw a lot of names out there, even non cals. Even though he basically says that LS=Calvinism. Oh, and don't tell Evan this but he's got Ray Comfort listed as well.

http://expreacherman.com/wiki-heresies/

Ray's version of LS is not the same as Mac's. Ray may have an arminian version of LS. Ray is a great teacher, but probably not a calvinist.

 

[evangelist6589]

Okay boy's time for me to take a break and watch some old Black and White. I just love the old classics! Yeah from the 1930's - 1960's rocks! I will post a reply soon James, but I just can't be thinking about theology all the time as its not healthy. Need balance.... Perhaps others here should get some black and white movies/TV shows and watch them.

 

[JamesL]

Why do you ignore the rest of the book and think that a forward can answer al your questions?

I don't ignore the rest of the book. You wanted to discuss the book, and it starts with two Forewords. Well, I guess we could have started with the Table of Contents.

But really, if the basic premise of the book cannot be hashed out, there's no need to even try to get into details.

It's like arguing about how a furnace works, when we can't even nail down whether it operates on gas or electricity

 

[evangelist6589]

Quotes

So Great a Salvation Quotes

Neither dedication nor willingness to be dedicated to Christ is an issue in salvation (74)

Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality. A whole category of "carnal christians"-born again people who continuously live like the unsaved--exists in the church (31, 59-60)

Disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith (48)

Absolutely Free Quotes

Submission is not in any sense a condition for eternal life (172)

Calling on the Lord means appealing to Him, not submitting to Him (193-195)

Nothing guarantees that a true christian will love God (130-131) Salvation does not necessarily even place the sinner in a right relationship of harmonious fellowship with God (145-160)

Genuine believers might even cease to name the name of Christ or confess christianity (111)

Balancing the Christian Life Quotes

Reading pages 178-179 he is talking about Peter in Acts 10:14 and Barnabas in Acts 15:39

Acts 10:14 (ESV) But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.

Acts 15:39 (NIV)
They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus,

Ryrie's conclusion is that both these men rejected the Lordship of Christ as it would appear according to Ryrie one must be perfectly submitted in all areas of his life in order to b saved, but Ryrie does not understand LS very well as this is false.

Both John MacArthur and Paul Washer have clearly stated that a submitted Christian will fall into sin but he will continue to repent.

"Those with true faith will fail--and in some cases, frequently--but a genuine believer will, as a pattern of life, confess his sin and come to the father for forgiveness (1 John 1:9)" The Gospel According to Jesus 1988 version (192)

Christians do sin and do disobey.

Phil 3:12-15 (NKJV)
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

James 3:2 (NKJV)
For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

NIV & ESV make this more clear by saying that we stumble in many ways which is very true of those holding to LS. But I think a key problem to those that do not understand LS is that they think that a Christian must be completely surrendered in all areas of life to be saved and by their logic LS is works based salvation. But this is false. LS is not works based salvation it is submission to Christ as Lord which is expected of anyone that claims Him as Lord. People that reject LS will believe that all that is required of salvation is saying a prayer and then they do not need to change, but if God has granted faith and repentance to the elect than He will also enable the elect to live in obedience and submit to His lordship. But there are many these days that do not submit to the Lordship of Christ so are they saved? I do not know as perhaps sometime later in their lives they will submit as only God knows whom the elect are. Ray Comfort thinks that if he cannot see fruit at that one time then they are false converts, but his version of LS differs from Mac's as Mac says that only God knows whom His elect are and are not.

James I do not claim to have this all figured out as this apparently is a very academic discussion that people whom are far more educated and smarter than me have failed to comprehend. But I do lean and believe that LS is the most biblical position. Does this mean Ryrie is a false convert? Absolutely not as he has written some very good theology books and loves Jesus as his savior.

 

[Yeshua1]

Faith is faith--trust, belief, confidence.
The most important part of faith is the object of faith. Faith always has an object.
There is a difference between knowledge and faith. In reference to the verse in James. The demons have knowledge aboutng faith will them lewd into us become more like christ! God. They believe he exists. But the object of their faith is in their leader, Satan, whom they sincerely believe will still overcome God. Satan and his legions are still deceived that in the end they will overcome. Thus the demons have Satan as the object of their faith.

Jesus told us what it meant to be one of His disciples, wqhich did mean to obey and follow Him, but the epistles clearly also teac h us before THAT happens, must get right with God first, and that is by faith alone!

really think thos eholding to L teachings confuse the initial requirement to get saved, which is grace alone/faith alone, and real savation will THEM lead us into becoming disciples of Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

So Great a Salvation Quotes

Neither dedication nor willingness to be dedicated to Christ is an issue in salvation (74)

Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality. A whole category of "carnal christians"-born again people who continuously live like the unsaved--exists in the church (31, 59-60)

Disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith (48)

Absolutely Free Quotes

Submission is not in any sense a condition for eternal life (172)

Calling on the Lord means appealing to Him, not submitting to Him (193-195)

Nothing guarantees that a true christian will love God (130-131) Salvation does not necessarily even place the sinner in a right relationship of harmonious fellowship with God (145-160)

Genuine believers might even cease to name the name of Christ or confess christianity (111)

Balancing the Christian Life Quotes

Reading pages 178-179 he is talking about Peter in Acts 10:14 and Barnabas in Acts 15:39

Acts 10:14 (ESV) But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.

Acts 15:39 (NIV)
They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus,

Ryrie's conclusion is that both these men rejected the Lordship of Christ as it would appear according to Ryrie one must be perfectly submitted in all areas of his life in order to b saved, but Ryrie does not understand LS very well as this is false.

Both John MacArthur and Paul Washer have clearly stated that a submitted Christian will fall into sin but he will continue to repent.

"Those with true faith will fail--and in some cases, frequently--but a genuine believer will, as a pattern of life, confess his sin and come to the father for forgiveness (1 John 1:9)" The Gospel According to Jesus 1988 version (192)

Christians do sin and do disobey.

Phil 3:12-15 (NKJV)
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

James 3:2 (NKJV)
For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

NIV & ESV make this more clear by saying that we stumble in many ways which is very true of those holding to LS. But I think a key problem to those that do not understand LS is that they think that a Christian must be completely surrendered in all areas of life to be saved and by their logic LS is works based salvation. But this is false. LS is not works based salvation it is submission to Christ as Lord which is expected of anyone that claims Him as Lord. People that reject LS will believe that all that is required of salvation is saying a prayer and then they do not need to change, but if God has granted faith and repentance to the elect than He will also enable the elect to live in obedience and submit to His lordship. But there are many these days that do not submit to the Lordship of Christ so are they saved? I do not know as perhaps sometime later in their lives they will submit as only God knows whom the elect are. Ray Comfort thinks that if he cannot see fruit at that one time then they are false converts, but his version of LS differs from Mac's as Mac says that only God knows whom His elect are and are not.

James I do not claim to have this all figured out as this apparently is a very academic discussion that people whom are far more educated and smarter than me have failed to comprehend. But I do lean and believe that LS is the most biblical position. Does this mean Ryrie is a false convert? Absolutely not as he has written some very good theology books and loves Jesus as his savior.

How does LS regard carnal christians then, never were really saved?