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PK said:Part #4ELECTION
Definition: Election is a divine act of God, whereby God, for reasons known only to Himself, in the blessing of mankind, sets to one side all firsts, and chooses all seconds.
The pre-eminent thought in Election is rank and privilege,
Rippon : Those ideas of yours are novel, not biblical ones.What in the world does "chooses all seconds" mean anyway?The Lord chooses some of humanity by His sovereign will. That means He does not choose others.
While it is indeed a privilege to be among the elect of God, I don't understand your emphasis on rank.
Here is what part of the 17th article of the "Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England" back in 1562 said: Predestination to life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid)He hath constantly decreed by His counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation as vessels made to honour.
This teaching would label God as a respecter of persons, and that leads one to believe that the Holy Spirit only deals with certain people, that is those who are chosen or elected to be saved; and that the Spirit of God never deals with others.
Rippon :The Holy Spirit deals with people other than His elect ones. But only the elect are drawn by the Father to Jesus.Only some are given to Jesus.
This whole "God would be a respector of persons" business is so old and tired as an assult on election. Here is what A.W.Pink said about this in his book on Election: The very character, then, of those whom God chooses refutes this silly objection. The same is equally apparent in the New Testament. "Hath not God chosen the poor of this world" (James 2:5 ): blessed be His name, that it is so, for had He chosen the wealthy it had fared ill with many of us, had it not? God did not pick out magnates and millionaires, financiers and bankers, to be objects of His grace. Nor are those of royal blood or the peers of the realm, the wise, the gifted, the influential of this world, for few among them have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. No, it is the despised, the weak, the base, the non-entities of this world, whom God has chosen ( 1 Corinthians 1:26-29), and this, in order that "no flesh should glory in his presence." Pharisees passed by and publicans and harlots brought in! "Jacob have I loved": and what was there in him to love! -- and echo still asks "what?" Had God been a "respector of persons" He certainly had not chosen worthless me!
If God chose people for heaven or elected them to be saved, and others were chosen for hell or were elected to be lost, then Christ’s death was not for all men.
PK said:God had mercy upon Pharaoh and that mercy was extended to Pharaoh even while hardening his heart. God’s mercy is upon all. Do not limit it to a few.
Rippon:A remnant is a few. We ( the elect, the sheep) are called a little flock. Therefore God's mercy is not showered on the majority, but a minority. The Lord did not have mercy on Pharaoh. Verse 18 dealing with God's mercy to some and His hardening the rest comes right after his declaration to Pharaoh.Did you miss that?Now don't confuse the Lord's great patience with the objects of His wrath (v.22 )as being merciful.
2. Does Rom. 9:22-23 teach that God has elected some for salvation and some for condemnation?
Rippon :Yes, it does. Humanity is divided into two groups:the lost and the saved. These groups are also known as the reprobate and the elect, the goats and the sheep etc.
3. Acts 13:48. “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” Does this verse teach that God has ordained some folks to believe and some not to believe? Does this verse teach that some are ordained to be saved and some are ordained to be lost?
Dr. Gaebelein in his book on Acts, says, “The Gentiles who were disposed to eternal life believed.”
Rippon:And Dave Hunt has picked up on Dr.Gaebelein's error as well. Don't try to turn Scripture on its head.No one is disposed to believe.You deny the natural depravity of all people by agreeing with folks having the disposition to believe. God has appointed (ordained,marked out for eternal life,destined) certain ones to believe. The cause of their belief was the ordination. Belief was the effect, not the other way around.
4. In Rom. 9:13 we read, “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” God did not say this before they were born.
So God is just but not fair?Rippon said:Justice means you receive no mercy SP. ... I agree that God is indeed just...
It is precisely that verse that bolsters PK's case! Election of Jacob and not Esau to salvation is NOT in view here.Rippon said:Verse 11 stands in opposition to your idea: Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad -- in order that God's purpose in election might stand.(TNIV)
PK said:Nowhere in the Bible is Election connected with the salvation or damnation of a human soul.
Rippon: I find this an puzzling statement coming from a Bible teacher. What in the world do you rwith the following?! : 1 Corinthians 1:27,28;Ephesians 1:4;James 2:5;Romans 11:7;Romans 9:11;11:5,28;1 Thessalonians 1:4;2 Peter 1:10! These verses shout out that God chooses His people for salvation -- everlasting life.Read the Word. Ditch your philosophy.
The most important phase of Election pertains to service. Election has nothing to do with a man’s salvation, neither has it anything to do with his condemnation. The purpose of Election then, is that the first shall become subservient and serve the second.
Rippon: Once again, you are a puzzling person. Outside of Acts 9:15, I don't see anything in Scripture emphazing election as being primarily service-oriented -- election is the choosing of certain individuals to be His children -- inheriting eternal life through Jesus Christ.
PK said:Part #6
FOREKNOWLEDGE We read in Rom. 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Now we will turn to the Word of God to find a Scriptural illustration that deals with the matter of the Foreknowledge of God. Ps. 139:1-8. Here we have the testimony of David in these first eight verses concerning the Foreknowledge of God. In verse one David declares that God knows him. In verse two he declares that God knows every thought that is being formed, even before it is expressed in words. He declares in the third verse that God knows the whole conduct of his life and in the fifth verse he reminds himself that god knows him totally, completely, at all times, and in all places.
Rippon: Psalm 139 has nothing to do with the subject of foreknowledge.
Rom. 8:29-30. “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” “Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
You can add Acts 2:23: this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.( NASBU)
skypair said:So God is just but not fair?
I guess that does devolve from a scheme where God only lets certain ones hear the gospel and believe -- unless both those premises are wrong. :tear:
skypair
skypair said:That opening video of dale-c's was quite controversial and he "came off" like his Catholic equivalent, Scott Hahn who gets his audiences roaring with laughter over tenets that Protestant believers hold dearly.
skypair
The same spoken words and tone would have evoked self-serving laughter among Hahn's audiences. Perhaps Hahn "drips" his presentation with a bit more sarcasm but not that I could distinguish.Rippon said:I didn't see any jocularity in White's message. He was being sarcastic at times, poking holes in typical evangelical/Fundamentalists mindsets -- but I wasn't laughing in response to his message. It resonated with me. He was being very biblical and very clear.
In 2-3 responses on the issue, you are trying to squirm away from the notion that God is fair. Is He?But I don't get any connection you are trying to make here.
skypair said:The same spoken words and tone would have evoked self-serving laughter among Hahn's audiences. Perhaps Hahn "drips" his presentation with a bit more sarcasm but not that I could distinguish.
You are much more familiar with that Roman Catholic guy than I am. I doubt he bears much similarity with White.White is biblical.
In 2-3 responses on the issue, you are trying to squirm away from the notion that God is fair. Is He?
God is Just. He is Righteous. He is Holy. He is not fair in the sense that most Arminians/Semi-Pelagians understand fairness. God is not an equal-opportunity God.He does not include everyone as His elect. Some would say that is unfair. But that has nothing to do with the human idea of fairness. The Lord has the perfect right to do what He wants with His creatures. And since all His human creatures are sinful and guilty and deserving of eternal condemnation -- the Sovereign Lord will save ( have mercy upon) those whom He so desires. He therefore will leave the remaining ones to suffer eternally in Hell -- which they deserve.If you have any complaints about that you can bug- off. Close your mouth. Who do you think you are? (Kind of a paraphrase of Romans 9:20, but read verses 19-21).
Parents have the obligation to treat their children uniformly, but see God is not of the same order as people are. Since all His subjects are sinful rebels, He doesn't have to treat them all in the same manner.He is Just to those He ultimately sentences to Hell. He is merciful to those He has decreed long ago would get His grace. Because He is merciful to a few doesn't negate His Just character. The sins of the elect are not just brushed aside -- Christ bore them at Calvary.As a matter of fact His elect are justified by their Savior.
But getting back to fairness -- if you only observe a bit of life and human existence you'll note that the Lord doesn't distribute His bounty among all people in the same measure. And the same applies to His grace. It is given ( for it is a free gift) to a few -- most will not be given faith.What's more most have not even heard the Law/Gospel in the last 2,000 years.
So he thinks -- same as White! :laugh:Rippon said:You are much more familiar with that Roman Catholic guy than I am. I doubt he bears much similarity with White.White is biblical.
Interesting. C.S. Lewis says that "fairness" is the FIRST evidence that we have that there IS a God! Where do I get the idea that someone should be allowed to take anything from me?? CONSCIENCE tells us that this is 1) not right and 2) that there is a higher truth than greed and self. And why do we have a conscience? Because God gave us "God awareness" in our souls -- the "knowledge of good."God is Just. He is Righteous. He is Holy. He is not fair in the sense that most Arminians/Semi-Pelagians understand fairness.
He would if they would. "Whosoever," rip.God is not an equal-opportunity God. He does not include everyone as His elect.
Huh? Where did we learn "fairness" to begin with???Some would say that is unfair. But that has nothing to do with the human idea of fairness.
Yeah, and we have the perfect right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Where did we get this idea??The Lord has the perfect right to do what He wants with His creatures.
First, are you working for the Obama campaign on your time off??And since all His human creatures are sinful and guilty and deserving of eternal condemnation -- the Sovereign Lord will save ( have mercy upon) those whom He so desires. He therefore will leave the remaining ones to suffer eternally in Hell -- which they deserve. If you have any complaints about that you can bug-off. Close your mouth. Who do you think you are? (Kind of a paraphrase of Romans 9:20, but read verses 19-21).
But He does. You are arguing against one of the dispensations God gave us so that we might see Him, rip.Parents have the obligation to treat their children uniformly, but see God is not of the same order as people are. Since all His subjects are sinful rebels, He doesn't have to treat them all in the same manner.
Pardon me, rip, but the observation you make about "bounty" applies to ALL who apply His "law." And this is yet another witness of His salvation -- "behold the goodness of God leadeth men unto salvation." Rom 2:4 ANYONE who is willing to listen to God is capable of being saved. Or as Jesus said, "Whosoever."But getting back to fairness -- if you only observe a bit of life and human existence you'll note that the Lord doesn't distribute His bounty among all people in the same measure. And the same applies to His grace. It is given ( for it is a free gift) to a few -- most will not be given faith. What's more most have not even heard the Law/Gospel in the last 2,000 years.
:laugh: I resemble that (here in East Texas)!! That pastor has the "parable" down where people really live!! You need to have more posts that just 88! Work on it, nodak! :laugh:nodak said:I like the old preacher's illustration of systematic theology:
It's a hot and humid day in East Texas. We are at a little country store with a pop machine and peanuts inside. 100 hot and weary cotton pickers with no money mill around outside.
The true arminian thinks God walks up, buys 100 rc colas and 100 bags of peanuts and goes out and sits on the porch. If you come up and ask nicely, you get an rc and a bag of peanuts. Your name is not put on them, and if you set them down for even a minute you lose them. If you don't consume them with a fair amount of couth God will come snatch them away.
The free gracer believes God goes in and buys 100 pops and 100 bags of peanuts. He comes to you and offers you some. You don't have to accept it, but once you do it is yours forever. He will hang out with you, love on you, and even let you help go around and offer everyone some.
The calvinist thinks God shows up, buys a few rc's and a few bags of peanuts, goes out and picks out a few people, rassles them down and pours the pop down their throats and dumps in the peanuts whether they want'em or not. Then He sits back to watch and make sure they act like people who are grateful.
Free grace is the only one that matches up with the whole Bible in my book.
Your milage may vary.
Rippon said:No,one is predestined from before the foundation of the world. The predestined ones are one and the same group as the elect --also known as the sheep, church and a host of other names. One doesn't become predestinated in this life anymore than one becomes a sheep.In this life, in the realm of time, one repents and believes, one becomes regenerated, but that person does not become predestined.
Rippon said:The calvinist thinks God shows up, buys a few rc's and a few bags of peanuts, goes out and picks out a few people, rassles them down and pours the pop down their throats and dumps in the peanuts whether they want'em or not. Then He sits back to watch and make sure they act like people who are grateful.
RIP: That's blasphemy. Earlier in your post you said you disagreed with the way Calvinists define things like predestination. Well, wow! Just go ahead and state total fabrications and call it Calvinism! That way your particular definition will hold sway, won't it?
You can't name a single Calvinist on the BB ( or elsewhere, for that matter) who belives God violently forces someone into the kingdom. Be honest, it won't help you persuade someone to be a Free-willer, or Free-gracer as you like to say, but at least Calvinists won't dismiss you for dealing in pure bunkum.
PK said:"Riddle Me This?" If you're predestined from the beginning can you reject it?
Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
PK said:I would encourage you to go back and read the post very carefully again.
Rippon said:PK:Nowhere in the Bible is Election connected with the salvation or damnation of a human soul.
Rippon: I find this an puzzling statement coming from a Bible teacher. What in the world do you with the following?! : 1 Corinthians 1:27,28;Ephesians 1:4;James 2:5;Romans 11:7;Romans 9:11;11:5,28;1 Thessalonians 1:4;2 Peter 1:10! These verses shout-out that God chooses His people for salvation -- everlasting life.Read the Word. Ditch your philosophy.
PK:The most important phase of Election pertains to service. Election has nothing to do with a man’s salvation, neither has it anything to do with his condemnation. The purpose of Election then, is that the first shall become subservient and serve the second.
Rippon: Once again, you are a puzzling person. Outside of Acts 9:15, I don't see anything in Scripture emphazing election as being primarily service-oriented -- election is the choosing of certain individuals to be His children -- inheriting eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Are you now agreeing with me now, or will you stick with the stuff Mr. Q wrote?