The gospel has nothing to do with God's covenant

[saturneptune]

saturneptune


So....that is why you do not like yourself

Perfect example, it is time for you to go

 

[Iconoclast]

Perfect example, it is time for you to go

Then you would have nothing to post about:wavey::wavey:

 

[Yeshua1]

Jeremiah Spoke of The new covenant That God would make With believers in Israel.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

At This time salvation was only found in Israel.The fact that God had purposed that Gentiles would be grafted into the root Covenant promises on equal footing with believing Jews was not fully revealed until the NT.

God had promised it in the OT but they did not understand it until the Nt time. We believing gentiles are in the New Covenant....right now.:thumbsup:

NO christian would disagree that we are saved ubder the new covenant relationship with God today, do they?

 

[DHK]

Jeremiah Spoke of The new covenant That God would make With believers in Israel.

Then leave at that. Don't you take God at His Word; don't you believe him?
He said, as you admit, that he would make a new covenant with Israel.
And he will--with Israel.
To be more accurate it will be the fulfillment of an old covenant.
Nevertheless it still will be with Israel, not with you, a Gentile.

 

[Iconoclast]

Then leave at that. Don't you take God at His Word; don't you believe him?
He said, as you admit, that he would make a new covenant with Israel.
And he will--with Israel.
To be more accurate it will be the fulfillment of an old covenant.
Nevertheless it still will be with Israel, not with you, a Gentile.

DHK,

This is why I abandoned Dispensationalism. I do believe God and His word.

In the time of Jer.31 he did promise a new covenant.

Jesus at the last Supper said...This is the new Covenant in my blood.

Israel had rejected Him.

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.


I do not deny this DHK....I believe it....Do you?

Then Paul tells us, blindness in part has happened to Israel...I believe that

then he says....

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.


I believe this DHK.....look at verse 17....to those that were far off[gentiles]
and to those who were nigh[Israel}

What you and other dispensationals do...is explain it away saying israel is put on hold[parenthiesis]...the "church" is a mystery people,[church age] when God is finished with the church then he will go back to Israel.

The rest of the Church accepts the teaching that Jesus brings together the saved in the world,jn3:16....jew or gentile....into one new man.

The Gentiles are grafted into Israel.Jesus is the True Israel and us in Him.

I believe the scripture DHK as do all the brothers.We just see the system of Dispensationalism as needing to be ...LEFT BEHIND.:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

NO christian would disagree that we are saved ubder the new covenant relationship with God today, do they?

Here is why people leave dispensational theology.I had a deacon in a church tell me the new covenant is not for christians today.

DHK says this-

Then leave at that. Don't you take God at His Word; don't you believe him?
He said, as you admit, that he would make a new covenant with Israel.
And he will--with Israel.
To be more accurate it will be the fulfillment of an old covenant.
Nevertheless it still will be with Israel, not with you, a Gentile.


This has always been the classic dispensational position.
Jm says it is all about how you understand Israel.....everyone agrees on this.

Here is the other view:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=106121512460

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=928082237453
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=10130382614THE ISRAEL OF GOD - IT'S PEOPLE
A. The Seed of the Woman
Genesis 3:15
B. The Seed of Abraham under the old covenant
Gen 12:1-3
C. The Seed of Abraham under the New Covenant
1. The seed of Abraham is primarily Jesus Christ
(Gal 3:16)
2. The seed of Abraham is, then, also, those who
are joined to Christ by faith (Gal 3:7, 29)
3. The seed of Abraham includes believing Jews and
believing Gentiles on an equal footing.
-Rom 9:3-5, 3:1-2; 11:1-5
-Gal 3:26-29, 7-9
-Rom 4:13-16
-Eph 2:11-16, 19-20, 3:6
4. The Seed of Abraham are circumcised in heart
-Col 2:11
-Phil 3:3
-Rom 2:28-29
5. the spiritual seed of Abraham are also called...
I Peter 2:2-10
6. The spiritual seed of Abraham are also called
the "Israel of God" - Gal 6:15-16
7. The Israel of God inherit an eternal home land
(i.e. the heavenly Jerusalem)
-Phil 3:20
-Heb 12:22-23
-Gal 4:26
-Heb 11:8-10
-2 Peter 3:13
-Rev 21:1-2



http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=7120617344

 

[DHK]

DHK,

This is why I abandoned Dispensationalism. I do believe God and His word.

In the time of Jer.31 he did promise a new covenant.

Jesus at the last Supper said...This is the new Covenant in my blood.

Israel had rejected Him.

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Now you have taken a parable and introduced new doctrine. That is not hermeneutically sound. No I don't believe this.
Tell me, do you believe that Israel still exists today?

I do not deny this DHK....I believe it....Do you?

Parables exist to illustrate doctrine already established. The doctrine you purport here isn't established. No, I don't believe it.

Then Paul tells us, blindness in part has happened to Israel...I believe that

This contradicts your previous teaching. Israel is still here. The kingdom has not been totally taken away. They are blinded for a season. When the blindness is taken away the kingdom will be restored to them.

Remember when Paul was saved. He was blinded at the same time. That doesn't mean he was not saved. When his eyesight was restored he could see clearly spiritually.

then he says....

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

I believe this DHK.....look at verse 17....to those that were far off[gentiles]
and to those who were nigh[Israel}

What you and other dispensationals do...is explain it away saying israel is put on hold[parenthiesis]...the "church" is a mystery people,[church age] when God is finished with the church then he will go back to Israel.

You are ignoring context. He is writing to the local church at Ephesus. To the Gentile members of the church at Ephesus and to the Jewish members at Ephesus, all of whom were believers, they were now one in Christ. Their backgrounds didn't matter anymore. This was a local church. The application to us is the same. Whether Gentile or Jew we are one in Christ. I don't even consider dispensationalism here. Nor do I consider covenants. I consider truth. We are one in Christ regardless of background. It doesn't matter what your background is, if you are saved you are one in Christ. Before hand the Jews were prejudiced against the Gentiles. Now they had to receive the Gentiles as brothers and sisters in Christ. Now there was unity. The key here is unity--unity in Christ.

The rest of the Church accepts the teaching that Jesus brings together the saved in the world,jn3:16....jew or gentile....into one new man.

The Gentiles are grafted into Israel.Jesus is the True Israel and us in Him.

I believe the scripture DHK as do all the brothers.We just see the system of Dispensationalism as needing to be ...LEFT BEHIND.:thumbs:

This has nothing to do with dispensationalism. You are ignoring the truth of the Word of God. Nowhere does it say Jesus is the True Israel.
That is just plain allegorism--your Origenism again.
Israel has been set aside; blinded if you will. But Israel still exists.
There is only one way to be saved for both Jew and Gentile, and that is through faith in the substitutionary atonement of Christ. Don't you believe that? Salvation is all of God. It is Christ that saves. It doesn't matter if one is a Jew or a Gentile. He must trust Christ as Savior. There are many Jews today that are being saved because they do just that: trust Christ as Savior. Salvation is the same for everyone.

Even when you quoted Jeremiah 31, the passage starts out:
"And I will make my covenant with Israel..."
Why would you deny Scripture?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

Thank you for your response and i am glad we can agree on many core teachings ,even here in the middle of our believing to different views of the same truth. I know what you believe,having already believed it myself at one time. You are accurately presenting that view,as REVMAC did in here at one time:thumbsup:
So understand I am not suggesting that you are making up a theology as a novelty...but are offering what you understand as the truth.

Now ....while I make no claim to be the end all and complete explanation of these things ,I will put before you how I and others seek to view and understand the exact same verses

Now you have taken a parable and introduced new doctrine. That is not hermeneutically sound. No I don't believe this.
Tell me, do you believe that Israel still exists today?

Physical Israel still exists and there are still some Jews who will be saved.

Yet the scripture is clear on Israel..after the flesh:

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Paul makes a distinction between children of the flesh[sperma}

<1,,4690,sperma>
akin to speiro, "to sow" (Eng., "sperm," "spermatic," etc.), has the following usages, (a) agricultural and botanical, e.g., Matt. 13:24,27,32 (for the AV of vv. 19-23, see sow, as in the RV); 1 Cor. 15:38; 2 Cor. 9:10; (b) physiological, Heb. 11:11; (c) metaphorical and by metonymy and for "offspring, posterity," (1) of natural offspring e.g., Matt. 22:24,25, RV, "seed" (AV, "issue"); John 7:42; 8:33,37; Acts 3:25; Rom. 1:3; 4:13,16,18; 9:7 (twice),8,29; 11:1; 2 Cor. 11:22; Heb. 2:16; 11:18; Rev. 12:17; Gal. 3:16,19,29; in the 16th ver., "He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ," quoted from the Sept. of Gen. 13:15; 17:7,8, there is especial stress on the word "seed," as referring to an individual (here, Christ) in fulfillment of the promises to Abraham, a unique use of the singular. While the plural form "seeds," neither in Hebrew nor in Greek, would have been natural any more than in English (it is not so used in Scripture of human offspring; its plural occurrence is in 1 Sam. 8:15, of crops), yet if the Divine intention had been to refer to Abraham's natural descendants, another word could have been chosen in the plural, such as "children;" all such words were, however, set aside, "seed" being selected as one that could be used in the singular, with the purpose of showing that the "seed" was Messiah. Some of the rabbis had even regarded "seed," e.g., in Gen. 4:25; Isa. 53:10, as referring to the Coming One. Descendants were given to Abraham by other than natural means, so that through him Messiah might come, and the point of the Apostle's argument is that since the fulfillment of the promises of God is secured alone by Christ, they only who are "in Christ" can receive them; (2) of spiritual offspring, Rom. 4:16,18; 9:8; here "the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed" points, firstly, to Isaac's birth as being not according to the ordinary course of nature but by Divine promise, and, secondly, by analogy, to the fact that all believers are children of God by spiritual birth; Gal. 3:29.







and children of the promise[teknon]

,teknon
"a child" is used in both the natural and the figurative senses. In contrast to huios, "son" (see below), it gives prominence to the fact of birth, . Figuratively, teknon is used of "children" of (a) God, John 1:12; (b) light, Eph. 5:8; (c) obedience, 1 Pet. 1:14; (d) a promise, Rom. 9:8; Gal. 4:28; (e) the Devil, 1 John 3:10; (f) wrath, Eph. 2:3; (g) cursing, 2 Pet. 2:14; (h) spiritual relationship, 2 Tim. 2:1;

Parables exist to illustrate doctrine already established. The doctrine you purport here isn't established. No, I don't believe it.

I agree that parables usually teach only one thing.Winman abuses the parables all the time. What is here in mT 21 is very clear on what is taking place; from isa 5......to mt 21


5 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:

6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.



33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.


Are you going to say that The lord Jesus Christ was...allegorizing DHK?
especially when the parable itself explains it clearly????

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2
Time to re-evaluate what you have been taught:thumbsup:

This contradicts your previous teaching. Israel is still here. The kingdom has not been totally taken away. They are blinded for a season. When the blindness is taken away the kingdom will be restored to them.

Physical Israel[sperma] by itself no longer enters the kingdom ,[ it never did anyway]unless they come in by new birth to Christian Israel.

This has nothing to do with dispensationalism. You are ignoring the truth of the Word of God. Nowhere does it say Jesus is the True Israel.

So ...if Jesus is the true Israel the true Covenant Son.....you would believe as I do, correct??? If we could find a verse that mentions the new covenant promise to be made to Israel and Judah,and gentiles at the same time....You would believe as i do correct!


here it is DHK....The Servant of The Lord does just this thing...do you believe it?





49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

It mentions God's whole plan and it is a Covenant salvation that you denied.

God tells us who Israel is....who is His Covenant Son-

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.


For anyone not looking through dispensational spectacles it is clear Jesus is the new Exodus, The true Israel, True tabernacle....

Open some of your 2000 books and learn about it:thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

DHK,

Thank you for your response and i am glad we can agree on many core teachings ,even here in the middle of our believing to different views of the same truth. I know what you believe,having already believed it myself at one time. You are accurately presenting that view,as REVMAC did in here at one time:thumbsup:
So understand I am not suggesting that you are making up a theology as a novelty...but are offering what you understand as the truth.

Now ....while I make no claim to be the end all and complete explanation of these things ,I will put before you how I and others seek to view and understand the exact same verses

Physical Israel still exists and there are still some Jews who will be saved.

Yet the scripture is clear on Israel..after the flesh:

3 For I could wish
Paul makes a distinction between children of the flesh[sperma}

Before you were saved where you "after the flesh"?
Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles. Were the Gentiles "after the flesh"?
Is not every Jew that is not saved "after the flesh"?

Today, in this "Church Age," there is only one way to be saved. It is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. There is no other way of salvation. That applies to the Jews and the Gentiles alike. Unless a person is saved he is "after the flesh," and not of the Spirit." One must be born again to be "of the Spirit," or else he is "of the flesh."
There is no need to differentiate between the Jew and the Gentile here. Paul was showing that even though he was an Apostle sent to the Gentiles, his great burden for his kinsmen, the Jews, remained. He expresses that burden both in chapters 9 and 10.

"a child" is used in both the natural and the figurative senses. In contrast to huios, "son" (see below), it gives prominence to the fact of birth, . Figuratively, teknon is used of "children" of (a) God, John 1:12; (b) light, Eph. 5:8; (c) obedience, 1 Pet. 1:14; (d) a promise, Rom. 9:8; Gal. 4:28; (e) the Devil, 1 John 3:10; (f) wrath, Eph. 2:3; (g) cursing, 2 Pet. 2:14; (h) spiritual relationship, 2 Tim. 2:1;

Unless you interpret the Bible Origen's way, the context always gives the interpretation of the word. Otherwise you are able to attach any meaning you want to the verse in question. Context is king.

I agree that parables usually teach only one thing.Winman abuses the parables all the time. What is here in mT 21 is very clear on what is taking place; from isa 5......to mt 21

5 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:

6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

And so???

33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Are you going to say that The lord Jesus Christ was...allegorizing DHK?
especially when the parable itself explains it clearly????

Are you explaining it away? The parable simply speaks of how:
he sent sent servants three times to the husbandmen, those who took care of the land that the Lord entrusted to them. Three times they beat them, stoned them, and killed them. Thus did Israel to the prophets. Lastly the Lord sent His Son. But they took His Son and killed him--Christ. It is a picture of what happened at the cross isn't it? Christ died for us, including the Jews, inspite of how they treated the prophets. They didn't deserve Him.
The stone that the builders rejected the same became the head of the corner. Christ became the chief cornerstone, the foundation of all who believe, whether Jew or Gentile.
The nation is a nation of Jews and Gentiles--united together by Christ.
Someday a remnant of Jews will be saved (Romans 11:26), but not now.

 

[DHK]

pt2
Physical Israel[sperma] by itself no longer enters the kingdom ,[ it never did anyway]unless they come in by new birth to Christian Israel.

Read John 1:11
He came to his own, but his own received him not.
They rejected Christ as their Messiah. They would have rejected the Kingdom had it been offered it to them.
[quote\So ...if Jesus is the true Israel the true Covenant Son.....you would believe as I do, correct??? If we could find a verse that mentions the new covenant promise to be made to Israel and Judah,and gentiles at the same time....You would believe as i do correct![/quote]
Jesus Christ is God, the second person of the triune Godhead, the Creator of the universe, the Lord of lords, the King of kings, and much, much more. To downgrade him as an allegorical "true Israel," is shameful.

here it is DHK....The Servant of The Lord does just this thing...do you believe it?

49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

It mentions God's whole plan and it is a Covenant salvation that you denied.

No it doesn't. You have a hard time with Scripture that points to future events don't you? It is a description of Christ, that is true. But it is a description of Christ in his relationship with Israel, which has nothing to do with you.

God tells us who Israel is....who is His Covenant Son-

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

For anyone not looking through dispensational spectacles it is clear Jesus is the new Exodus, The true Israel, True tabernacle....

Open some of your 2000 books and learn about it:thumbsup:

You jump back and forth between verses and contexts and confuse yourself. God made a covenant with Israel--a covenant which has not yet been fulfilled. Look carefully:

Isaiah 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
--I have heard the in an acceptable time--that time is not yet. The nation of Israel still languishes today.
--In a day of salvation have I helped thee--How is that. Right now they are being attacked on every side. The goal of every Muslim land is to get rid of Israel and push them into the Sea. Is that the salvation you are speaking of?
--I will preserve thee. Are they being preserved? They are in constant war.
Have you heard of Hezbollah, Intifadah, Hamas, etc.
--I give to thee for a covenant of the people. This is yet to come.
--To establish the earth. Has Israel established the earth. I don't see Israel ruling the earth. Do you?
----To cause to inherit the desolate heritages. Have they done that? No.
All of this is future and will happen when Christ will come again.
So then, all Israel shall be saved. Romans 11:26.

These promises and this covenant is to Israel, not to you.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

Isaiah 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
--I have heard the in an acceptable time--that time is not yet. The nation of Israel still languishes today.
--In a day of salvation have I helped thee--How is that.

If you do not believe me...believe Paul as he wrote this scripture as being true to the corinthian gentile christians....

6 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Not only does Paul quote this here, but most of Romans 9-15 come out of Isa.40-66.....for us now.


Read John 1:11
He came to his own, but his own received him not.
They rejected Christ as their Messiah. They would have rejected the Kingdom had it been offered it to them.
[quote\So ...if Jesus is the true Israel the true Covenant Son.....you would believe as I do, correct??? If we could find a verse that mentions the new covenant promise to be made to Israel and Judah,and gentiles at the same time....You would believe as i do correct![/quote]
Jesus Christ is God, the second person of the triune Godhead, the Creator of the universe, the Lord of lords, the King of kings, and much, much more. To downgrade him as an allegorical "true Israel," is shameful.

No....what is shameful is you not understanding His part as the Last Adam, restoring fallen man, to be the true image bearer that God has purposed him to Be.

Jesus is the fulfillement of all Ot. types.To fragment and separate what God has joined together is what is shameful.

Jesus is the true manna...is this allegorical ...like Origen in your understanding?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

I know you will keep to your own notes and commentary....but others will see.

--I give to thee for a covenant of the people. This is yet to come.
--To establish the earth. Has Israel established the earth. I don't see Israel ruling the earth. Do you?
----To cause to inherit the desolate heritages. Have they done that? No

Yes all of the elect are being drawn into the New Covenant by the Spirit now as the gospel goes world wide.Jesus is reigning in Christian Israel out of the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.....the only Holy Place.....right now...in the midst of His enemies.

 

[Herald]

Brother Icon, I admire your grit and determination. One thing you New Yorkers have is elephant hide when it comes to dealing with criticism. I know because we New Jerseyans are similarly equipped.

Covenant Theology is very difficult for dispensationalists to grasp. Dispensationalism is, what I term, a mathematical theology. Nothing is left to chance. Their elaborate charts have everything pinned down except for exact dates and times (and there are plenty of dispensationalists who have tried to pronounce exactness in those areas!). The idea that God has always had one called out people from Adam to Christ, and continuing (Acts 2:39), is a concept dispensationalists believe intellectually, but their filter (the separation of Israel and the Church) causes them difficulty in accepting it. I know I had difficulty accepting it for nearly two and half decades. John Gerstner's work, "Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth" is a skillfully written polemic that exposes the errors of dispensationalism in light of scripture. Perhaps a daring dispensationalist, even if it is only for apologetic reasons, will get out of his comfort zone, and order a copy.

Keep up the good work of flying the flag!

 

[Iconoclast]

Brother Icon, I admire your grit and determination. One thing you New Yorkers have is elephant hide when it comes to dealing with criticism. I know because we New Jerseyans are similarly equipped.

Covenant Theology is very difficult for dispensationalists to grasp. Dispensationalism is, what I term, a mathematical theology. Nothing is left to chance. Their elaborate charts have everything pinned down except for exact dates and times (and there are plenty of dispensationalists who have tried to pronounce exactness in those areas!). The idea that God has always had one called out people from Adam to Christ, and continuing (Acts 2:39), is a concept dispensationalists believe intellectually, but their filter (the separation of Israel and the Church) causes them difficulty in accepting it. I know I had difficulty accepting it for nearly two and half decades. John Gerstner's work, "Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth" is a skillfully written polemic that exposes the errors of dispensationalism in light of scripture. Perhaps a daring dispensationalist, even if it is only for apologetic reasons, will get out of his comfort zone, and order a copy.

Keep up the good work of flying the flag!

Hello My Brother,
:laugh: It took me two to three years to work through Dwight Pentecosts, things to come, and walvoords works, some chafer and ryrie,

I still have some of my charts and tribulation maps. I audited a couple of classes at Baptist bible college ....they taught if you were not premill you were apostate.

I fought against these ideas in a similar fashion to what DHK...and months ago REVMAC....would offer so That helps me take some of the heat.

The thing is.....all truth belongs to God.Not me, not you, not DHK and his commentaries. I respect DHK standing his ground and coming at me to a certain extent. If I were in His shoes...I would see myself as a threat in that the teaching seems to be wide open ...he speaks of me jumping around.
I do not always express myself as well as others, so I try and offer good links that others can benefit by.

I do not like for example when he will say I am following in Origens foot steps....not so much in what he implies about me personally....but it distracts people from the verses I offered....

I am layed over in Eugene Oregon till monday morning.walked down to a mall and caught the lunch buffet at hometown buffet.

Pastor Nichols book on Reformed Baptist Covenant theology came to lunch with me,and I was reading about this very topic,and all the good verses he listed. I enjoy the gifted men God has who do alot of the heavy lifting and open up the teaching for consideration.

God used many people along the way to force me to re-study my position,and it is still very much a work in progress.

providentially spoke to a recently widowed woman[a christian] and tried to offer scriptural comfort from Jn 17...
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Robert Trail preached a series of sermons on this verse and one of the most powerful things He said was that believers must leave those they love here, in order to be with Jesus where He is there....in order for this prayer to be answered...it was simple yet so profound....

She was a godly widow, and still being used of the Lord...it was a great providence...Also spoke with two non churched persons who wrote down the sermonaudio web -site...:thumbs:

I am a bit rough sometimes when they come after the truth,and me in here. I have had several people tell me that the exchanges are sometime helpful ,when they see truth posted against several of these novelties.
It drives me to study even more to be faithful to the truth.Sometimes the more reaction that comes shows the closer to the nerve of truth we are getting.
I am glad that others like You, Archangel, JBH, Aaron,OR,Dr.Bob ,Kyred,Preachingjesus,and so many others are able to post in a more graceful way, and reach others who I will not be used to reach:thumbs::wavey:

 

[DHK]

DHK,


If you do not believe me...believe Paul as he wrote this scripture as being true to the corinthian gentile christians....

6 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Not only does Paul quote this here, but most of Romans 9-15 come out of Isa.40-66.....for us now.

There are many Scriptures, like Joel 2:28ff, that have double fulfillments. In Acts 2 Peter said: "This is that which is spoken of by the prophet Joel" indicating what they were seeing and hearing was a fulfillment of prophesy right there and then. However if you read the entire passage you realize that not everything was fulfilled. There were no signs in the sky, the heavens, etc. They won't be fulfilled until Christ comes again at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom.
One prophecy--two parts or two fulfillments. The same is true here in Isaiah.

Thus Paul quotes this Scripture in partial fulfillment. But it will not be totally fulfilled until the MK comes. The context is clear on that. I already delineated that. Why didn't you respond to that?

No....what is shameful is you not understanding His part as the Last Adam, restoring fallen man, to be the true image bearer that God has purposed him to Be.

I understand that. The NT does not refer to Christ as the "True Israel," but it does refer to him as the "second Adam." Don't read into Scripture that which is not there. Isaiah was speaking figuratively in the first place. Who was Israel? Jacob had the name of Israel.

Jesus is the fulfillement of all Ot. types.To fragment and separate what God has joined together is what is shameful.

So did John the Baptist--a voice calling in the wilderness.
There may be more than one type. But we don't learn doctrine by types, parables, figures of speech. They only illustrate that which already has been taught.

Jesus is the true manna.

..is this allegorical ...like Origen in your understanding?

No. It is a metaphor. Jesus said: "I am that bread from heaven." He said "I am the manna." He identified himself as the manna, the bread from heaven. That is not allegory, but a metaphor. It is the same as when he said "I am the door." That also is a metaphor. They speak about salvation. There is no other way to heaven but through the door of Jesus, but by receiving the bread of Jesus.

Yes all of the elect are being drawn into the New Covenant by the Spirit now as the gospel goes world wide.Jesus is reigning in Christian Israel out of the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.....the only Holy Place.....right now...in the midst of His enemies.

You are not being honest with Scripture Icon. Verse three does not speak of "all of the elect," but only of the nation of Israel, and only in the future time called the Millennial Kingdom. It does not refer to us. There is no covenant in those verses that speaks to the Gentile Christian. He is speaking to the Jews, and it even declares it to be so.

--I give to thee for a covenant of the people. This is yet to come.
--To establish the earth. Has Israel established the earth. I don't see Israel ruling the earth. Do you?
----To cause to inherit the desolate heritages. Have they done that? No

The covenant was made with the People of Israel. It even states that in the passage. Why are you reading into this passage that which is not there?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

The covenant was made with the People of Israel. It even states that in the passage. Why are you reading into this passage that which is not there?

I agree with you on this DHK. It was Made with The people Of Israel.

In The NT.Paul Explains this in reference to Gentiles:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ,

being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,


and strangers from the covenants of promise,

having no hope,

and without God in the world:

The Covenants were made with Israel,gentiles were excluded, BUT NOW...in Christ they are with the elect remnant now included.

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off
are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

They are grafted into The promises of the Covenant...See IT?


19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

The verse from Hosea Is Covenant language..they were not God's people, but now in Christ They are God's people.

 

[Iconoclast]

There are many Scriptures, like Joel 2:28ff, that have double fulfillments. I

Thus Paul quotes this Scripture in partial fulfillment. But it will not be totally fulfilled until the MK comes. The context is clear on that. I already delineated that. Why didn't you respond to that?

This Idea of "double fulfillment" is not necessary if We understand The language used to indicate that The kingdom is here now...not fulfilled yet, but started.

The language of Joel like The Language Of Isa .Is not as you describe it....

13 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.

3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.

4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

Sounds like Mt 24, does'nt it? it is the language of judgement.

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

This language in vs.!3 is similar to Hebrews12


When Babylon was destroyed These descriptive phrases were not literal but figuratively fulfilled when the day of the Lord happened to Babylon


Again When Edom was judged...did the heaven roll up as a scroll? This language is used in Revelation also....
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[DHK]

DHK,
I agree with you on this DHK. It was Made with The people Of Israel.

That's a start.

In The NT.Paul Explains this in reference to Gentiles:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope,
and without God in the world:

The Covenants were made with Israel,gentiles were excluded, BUT NOW...in Christ they are with the elect remnant now included.

You totally disregard context here. I have explained this to you already.
Before the cross God made covenants with Israel. Before the cross all Gentiles or other nations were outside those covenants. But remember Paul is writing specifically to the Ephesian church members.

Granted Paul is referencing Gentiles, but the application is to all. It doesn't matter whether the person is Jew or Gentile does it. They are all without hope and without God in this world. Salvation is through Christ, not through Israel.
Christ is not Israel. The emphasis in this passage in Ephesians is the unity of the believers in the local church. The Jewish and Gentile believers are one in Christ. Their backgrounds no longer matter. The Jewish believers especially needed to put away their bias and recognize this. Salvation had now come to Gentile believers.
The covenants may have come through the Israelites, but now Gentile believers were not without hope, and not without God, and now not without salvation. The Jews could not be biased any longer. They had to be accepting of the Gentile believers. They were one in Christ.

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off
are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

They are grafted into The promises of the Covenant...See IT?

NO! Both Jew and Gentile had to come to God through the blood of Christ. There is no other way. Are you suggesting that a Jew could come "nigh" through some other way but "by the blood of Christ"??? Both Jews and Gentiles had to come to Christ the same way.
Some of these Gentiles, pagans, were a very far way off. But they still came through the blood of Christ. Just because a Jew was part of the nation of Israel doesn't mean he was saved.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

The verse from Hosea Is Covenant language..they were not God's people, but now in Christ They are God's people.

The house of God, the children of God, the family of God, etc.
There is no covenant to the Gentiles here. It is a local church that Paul is writing to. They are as a family if anything. Paul, in 1Cor.12 describes them as a "body."
There is no covenant, rather a relationship. I have a relationship with Christ my Savior. The covenants were with Israel.

 

[DHK]

This Idea of "double fulfillment" is not necessary if We understand The language used to indicate that The kingdom is here now...not fulfilled yet, but started.

So you can explain how this verse is completely fulfilled today:

Isaiah 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

Be literal please.

 

[saturneptune]

Hello My Brother,
:laugh: It took me two to three years to work through Dwight Pentecosts, things to come, and walvoords works, some chafer and ryrie,

I still have some of my charts and tribulation maps. I audited a couple of classes at Baptist bible college ....they taught if you were not premill you were apostate.

I fought against these ideas in a similar fashion to what DHK...and months ago REVMAC....would offer so That helps me take some of the heat.

The thing is.....all truth belongs to God.Not me, not you, not DHK and his commentaries. I respect DHK standing his ground and coming at me to a certain extent. If I were in His shoes...I would see myself as a threat in that the teaching seems to be wide open ...he speaks of me jumping around.
I do not always express myself as well as others, so I try and offer good links that others can benefit by.

I do not like for example when he will say I am following in Origens foot steps....not so much in what he implies about me personally....but it distracts people from the verses I offered....

I am layed over in Eugene Oregon till monday morning.walked down to a mall and caught the lunch buffet at hometown buffet.

Pastor Nichols book on Reformed Baptist Covenant theology came to lunch with me,and I was reading about this very topic,and all the good verses he listed. I enjoy the gifted men God has who do alot of the heavy lifting and open up the teaching for consideration.

God used many people along the way to force me to re-study my position,and it is still very much a work in progress.

providentially spoke to a recently widowed woman[a christian] and tried to offer scriptural comfort from Jn 17...
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Robert Trail preached a series of sermons on this verse and one of the most powerful things He said was that believers must leave those they love here, in order to be with Jesus where He is there....in order for this prayer to be answered...it was simple yet so profound....

She was a godly widow, and still being used of the Lord...it was a great providence...Also spoke with two non churched persons who wrote down the sermonaudio web -site...:thumbs:

I am a bit rough sometimes when they come after the truth,and me in here. I have had several people tell me that the exchanges are sometime helpful ,when they see truth posted against several of these novelties.
It drives me to study even more to be faithful to the truth.Sometimes the more reaction that comes shows the closer to the nerve of truth we are getting.
I am glad that others like You, Archangel, JBH, Aaron,OR,Dr.Bob ,Kyred,Preachingjesus,and so many others are able to post in a more graceful way, and reach others who I will not be used to reach:thumbs::wavey:

I noticed my name was not on the list, and fairly so. What I do not understand is how I can be for covenant theology, Doctrines of Grace and Sovereignty, and yet, the most critical posts I get are from you. I expected that post from preachinginjesus, as what I said was not the best choice of words, but even more than that, he does not completely agree with these doctrines.

It seems though we agree on these two areas, you get angered when any other doctrine is brought up, such as gossip, creeds, elder government, etc. I do not understand why disagreement on such minor issues produces the comments like "I am in error" or "I believe in false doctrine" almost every post. I will admit, it is hard for me to let a comment like that pass, and one feeds the other. Looking back on some the exchanges, I am ashamed of both.

I do have one question for you if you would be so kind to answer it without any ulterior motive on my part. Do you believe the churches that Paul is writing to in the NT, some he founded, are local autononmous churches?