The gospel has nothing to do with God's covenant

[Iconoclast]

SN,

I do have one question for you if you would be so kind to answer it without any ulterior motive on my part. Do you believe the churches that Paul is writing to in the NT, some he founded, are local autononmous churches?

Yes. I hold that scripture teaches a very ,very strong...local church view.

Not quite trail of blood, not landmarkism, but as close as you can get without stepping over the line.

The only time their will be one universal assembly or gathered church is on the last day...when all saints from all time assemble.

 

[Iconoclast]

So you can explain how this verse is completely fulfilled today:

Isaiah 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

Be literal please.

I believe this description of the vindication of the Servant of The Lord speaks of Jesus ,the elect servant,being sent of the Father in fulfillment of the Covenant of Redemption.

Adam having sinned cast all into the realm of death ,Israel haven been elected of God to receive and preserve the word of the promise of the Covenant. They failed except for an elect remnant preserved by God.

The servant has been prepared by God to accomplish His mission:

The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

I understand this as The Servant brings the elect remnant and those elect gentiles into the New Covenant as one new man, Just like thge language of psalm 22....the people resist,the servant prays His case to the Father. the father vindicates the Son,and the gospel goes worldwide:
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.....


So in the same way...

Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee,

Jesus in His incarnation and cross work...brings in the acceptable time,,this is the same languge from Lk 4 quotes from Isa 61

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;


In Christ..the Covenant of grace is extended worldwide.
Paul writes of this in 2 cor 6.....It is not allegorial ,but biblical theolgy.

Now is the day of salvation.It is fulfilled and going worldwide as instructed in the great commission.

Others have seen it way before me;

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2
II. The blessings he has in store for all those to whom he is made salvation.
1. God will own and stand by him in his undertaking (Isaiah 49:8): In an acceptable time have I heard thee, that is, I will hear thee. Christ, in the days of his flesh, offered up strong cries, and was heard, Hebrews 5:7. He knew that the Father heard him always (John 11:42), heard him for himself (for, though the cup might not pass from him, yet he was enabled to drink it), heard him for all that are his, and therefore he interceded for them as one having authority. Father, I will, John 17:24. All our happiness results from the Son's interest in the Father and the prevalency of his intercession, that he always heard him and this makes the gospel time an acceptable time, welcome to us, because we are accepted of God, both reconciled and recommended to him, that God hears the Redeemer for us, Hebrews 7:25. Nor will he hear him only, but help him to go through with his undertaking. The Father was always with him at his right hand, and did not leave him when his disciples did. Violent attacks were made upon our Lord Jesus by the powers of darkness, when it was their hour, to drive him off from his undertakings, but God promises to preserve him and enable him to persevere in it on that one stone were seven eyes, Zechariah 3:9. God would preserve him, would preserve his interest, his kingdom among men, though fought against on all sides. Christ is preserved while Christianity is.
2. God will authorize him to apply to his church the benefits of the redemption he is to work out. God's preserving and helping him was to make the day of his gospel a day of salvation. And so the apostle understands it: Behold, now is the day of salvation, now the word of reconciliation by Christ is preached, 2*Corinthians 6:2.
(1.) He shall be guarantee of the treaty of peace between God and man: I will give thee for a covenant of the people. This we had before (Isaiah 42:6), and it is here repeated as faithful, and well worthy of all acceptation and observation. He is given for a covenant, that is, for a pledge of all the blessings of the covenant. It was in him that God was reconciling the world to himself and he that spared not his own Son will deny us nothing. He is given for a covenant, not only as he is the Mediator of the covenant, the blessed days-man who has laid his hand upon us both, but as he is all in all in the covenant. All the duty of the covenant is summed up in our being his and all the privilege and happiness of the covenant are summed up in his being ours.
Our LibraryCommentariesJohn Gill's Exposition of the BibleIsaiahIsaiah 49Isaiah 49:8
Isaiah 49:8




Isaiah 49:8
Thus saith the Lord
These are the words of God the Father to his Son continued; the Jews themselves interpret them of the Messiah {z}: in an acceptable time have I heard thee:
this was the time when Christ was here on earth, when he became incarnate, and suffered and died for his people: this was an acceptable time to God the Father; his very sufferings were acceptable; his sacrifice was of a sweet smelling savour; his righteousness was well pleasing to him; for by all this his perfections were glorified, his purposes were answered, his covenant and promises fulfilled, and his people saved: it was acceptable to men, the things that were now done and procured; as pardon of sin, peace and reconciliation, a justifying righteousness, and complete salvation; which is worthy the acceptation of all that are lost and undone, and see themselves so, and that nothing they can do will save them: or "in a time of good will" F1; such was the time of Christ's first coming; it was good will to men, ( Luke 2:14 ) . God showed his good will to men by the Person whom he sent to save them, his own, only, and beloved Son; and by sending him to save sinners, the chief of sinners, even enemies; and this time was fixed and settled by the good will and pleasure of God; and during this time the Lord heard Christ; he always heard him interceding for himself, and for his people; he heard him in the garden, and on the cross, and at all other times; see ( Hebrews 5:7 ) and in a day of salvation have I helped thee;
at the time when he wrought out the salvation of his people, then he helped him in it, and through it, as he promised him, and as Christ believed he would, ( Isaiah 42:1 ) ( Isaiah 50:7 Isaiah 50:9 ) . This is to be understood of him as man and Mediator, and to show the greatness of the work of salvation, and the concern of God in it; otherwise, as Christ is the mighty God, he needed no help, and his own arm brought salvation to him: and I will preserve thee;
as he did from his enemies in life, in his infancy, and when grown up, that his life might not be taken away before his time; from being overcome by his enemies in the garden, and on the cross; from the power of death and the grave, by raising him up from thence; he preserved him to his kingdom and glory, and now retains him in heaven until the time of the restitution of all things; and will preserve his seed, and his throne, his cause, and interest, to the end of time: and give thee for a covenant of the people;
Jews and Gentiles, all that are given to him, and whom he redeems by his blood, whom the Spirit sanctifies, and applies the blessings and promises of the covenant to; which is to be understood of the covenant of grace: Christ is said to be given for it unto them, he being a covenantee in it; the representative of these people in it; the surety of it for them; the Mediator and messenger of it to them; and the ratifier and confirmer of it; and as he is the great blessing of it, the sum and substance of it; and as all the blessings and promises of it are in him; and this may respect the constitution of the covenant from everlasting, and the manifestation of it in time; and this is a gift of God honourable to Christ, of free grace to his people, very comprehensive and unspeakable. Kimchi says this refers to the times of the Messiah: and the end of all this is to establish the earth;
not the land of Judea, but the whole earth; which, were it not for Christ, and his covenant and suretyship engagements for his people, and for the sake of them, and their salvation, would long ago have been dissolved and broke to pieces; but he bears up the pillars of it; and, when he has gathered in all his people, will destroy it: or the end in his being given for a covenant was to "raise up" the fallen inhabitants of the earth, for so the word


Matthew Henry

 

[DHK]

pt2

Our LibraryCommentariesJohn Gill's Exposition of the BibleIsaiahIsaiah 49Isaiah 49:8

John Gill is a hyper-Calvinist. Some of his own contemporaries looked down on his extremist views.

Isaiah 49:8
Matthew Henry

Matthew Henry was raised a Presbyterian, ordained by six Presbyterian ministers, and served as a Presbyterian all of his life.
What makes you think I am going to give his theology on covenants any credibility??
You must be joking?
Go read a book by Tim Lahaye. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK
Read John 1:11

He came to his own, but his own received him not.
They rejected Christ as their Messiah. They would have rejected the Kingdom had it been offered it to them.

The King came to Zion.....the triumphal entry,He offered the Kingdom

[quote\So ...if Jesus is the true Israel the true Covenant Son.....you would believe as I do, correct??? If we could find a verse that mentions the new covenant promise to be made to Israel and Judah,and gentiles at the same time....You would believe as i do correct![/quote]
Jesus Christ is God, the second person of the triune Godhead, the Creator of the universe, the Lord of lords, the King of kings, and much, much more. To downgrade him as an allegorical "true Israel," is shameful.

Isa 49 settles the question...Isa 54 is icing on the cake
54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.

2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

No it doesn't. You have a hard time with Scripture that points to future events don't you? It is a description of Christ, that is true. But it is a description of Christ in his relationship with Israel, which has nothing to do with you.

From my point of view, it is you who are having trouble with it.

You jump back and forth between verses and contexts and confuse yourself. God made a covenant with Israel--a covenant which has not yet been fulfilled. Look carefully:

Understanding that Jesus has now made The Christian Israel solves The issue, you deny it so you cannot see it.

Isaiah 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

--I have heard the in an acceptable time--that time is not yet. The nation of Israel still languishes today.

The physical nation of Israel is completely secular...christian Israel [the church] is spiritual and growing .
-

-In a day of salvation have I helped thee--How is that. Right now they are being attacked on every side. The goal of every Muslim land is to get rid of Israel and push them into the Sea. Is that the salvation you are speaking of?

you are fawning over national Israel,not me.They are ungodly.
Salvation is In Christ jew or gentile one new man.

--I will preserve thee. Are they being preserved? They are in constant war.
Have you heard of Hezbollah, Intifadah, Hamas, etc.

God preserves the Israel of God.

--I give to thee for a covenant of the people. This is yet to come.

This is now...right now

--To establish the earth. Has Israel established the earth. I don't see Israel ruling the earth. Do you?

Yes...Jesus rules right now from the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem..in the midst of His enemies:
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies

----To cause to inherit the desolate heritages. Have they done that? No.
All of this is future and will happen when Christ will come again.
So then, all Israel shall be saved. Romans 11:26.

These promises and this covenant is to Israel, not to you.

I am In Christ..the seed of Abraham.The covenant made with Him is mine in Him.

 

[Iconoclast]

John Gill is a hyper-Calvinist. Some of his own contemporaries looked down on his extremist views.

Matthew Henry was raised a Presbyterian, ordained by six Presbyterian ministers, and served as a Presbyterian all of his life.
What makes you think I am going to give his theology on covenants any credibility??
You must be joking?
Go read a book by Tim Lahaye. :smilewinkgrin:

Tim Lahaye:laugh::laugh: instead of Matthew Henry lol.

Gill was not a hyper.

DHK....do not look at the men...look at the scripture they offer.

 

[DHK]

I believe this description of the vindication of the Servant of The Lord speaks of Jesus ,the elect servant,being sent of the Father in fulfillment of the Covenant of Redemption.

The covenant applies only to Israel.
Even the redemption and the promises are basically to Israel. Read with meaning:

Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel,
--He is not speaking of Gentiles here. He is the redeemer of Israel.
This is not an allegory for Christians. Israel is Israel.

Adam having sinned cast all into the realm of death ,Israel haven been elected of God to receive and preserve the word of the promise of the Covenant. They failed except for an elect remnant preserved by God.

And it is to that remnant of Israel that the Lord is speaking to, not to Gentile Christians.

The servant has been prepared by God to accomplish His mission:

True.

I understand this as The Servant brings the elect remnant and those elect gentiles into the New Covenant as one new man,

There is not one word about bringing "elect Gentiles" into a "new covenant." You are just reading what you want into that passage. Try exegeting it again. This time put your bias aside.
The passage speaks about a conquering Israel who will rule over the Gentiles.

Isaiah 49:19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
--This is a victorious Israel who now has victory over her enemies--who are now far away. There is no covenant with these Gentiles.

Just like thge language of psalm 22....the people resist,the servant prays His case to the Father. the father vindicates the Son,and the gospel goes worldwide:
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.....

And has this happened. If so, when?

26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
--When has the nation of Israel, in recent generations, been called "the meek"? When have they eaten and been satisfied? When have they praised the Lord and have lived forever? Are you serious Icon?
And since when have all the ends of the world remembered and turned to the Lord? Has the Great Commission now been annulled?
Have all turned to Christ? When did I miss this great revival. Is Islam now decimated? Weren't there just twenty some hostages killed in Algeria by Muslim militants in Algeria? Haven't the French been bombing Al-Qaeda militants in Mali recently. Many died there too. But you say: "All the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee." You are dreaming Icon.

This has never happened in history.
These verses are prophetic of the Millenennial Kingdom, when Christ will come and rule with a rod of iron.

So in the same way...

Jesus in His incarnation and cross work...brings in the acceptable time,,this is the same languge from Lk 4 quotes from Isa 61

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

You now jump to Isaiah 61??
A different context; a different time! Can't you do better than to jump from one context to another. Be consistent!
Chapter 61 is not chapter 49. You are one confused individual.

 

[Herald]

Tim Lahaye:laugh::laugh: instead of Matthew Henry lol.

Gill was not a hyper.

DHK....do not look at the men...look at the scripture they offer.

Brother Icon,

Gill is accused of being a hyper-Calvinist because of his supralapsarian view. There is no credible evidence to suggest he was a hyper-Calvinist. Making Gill out to be a hyper-Calvinist is like throwing out the accusation of "racist" at someone who is not a racist. Once the charge is made it is hard to dispel the stigma.

There is also no commonly accepted definition of what a hyper-Calvinist is. The charge is often made against those who hold to supralapsarianism. According to Donald McKim's "Dictionary of Theological Terms", supralapsarianism is:

A technical term used in Calvinist theology for the view that the election and reprobation of individual persons occurs in the decrees of God as logically prior to the decrees for creation and the fall.

 

[DHK]

Tim Lahaye:laugh::laugh: instead of Matthew Henry lol.

Gill was not a hyper.

DHK....do not look at the men...look at the scripture they offer.

Think Icon.
For you to refer me to Presbyterians and others who hold similar theologies to learn of covenants is the same as me to refer you to Ellen G. White's book "The Great Controversy" to learn about the Sabbath, where she says:

The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God.

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gc38.html

I don't agree with Sabbath-keeping, but if someone did, why would I read one of their books? I am not interested in reading their theology. Are you?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

There is not one word about bringing "elect Gentiles" into a "new covenant." You are just reading what you want into that passage. Try exegeting it again. This time put your bias aside.
The passage speaks about a conquering Israel who will rule over the Gentiles.

DHK....I have offered several verses about the gentiles being grafted in to the promises......The promises are covenant promises.... in eph 2...gentiles were at one time non covenant people....but now they are the Covenant people along side the elect remnant from the jewish people...
here it is in Romans-

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Hint.....those who were not my people[non covenant gentiles]
are going to be called[my people] this is covenant language.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

I have never seen anyone confuse Matthew Henry with the writing of Ellen G White.

And as Mt.Henry is not speaking about infant sprinkling in this PASSAGE what do you think of what verses he offered? Look at the teaching offered ,not the person.

 

[DHK]

DHK,
DHK....I have offered several verses about the gentiles being grafted in to the promises......The promises are covenant promises.... in eph 2...gentiles were at one time non covenant people....but now they are the Covenant people along side the elect remnant from the jewish people...

You simply read into the Scriptures what you want to read. You ignore context in order context. You even admitted to Saturn your strong belief in the local church and then go on to ignore the context of the local church. I find that unbelievable. Paul was writing to the believers at Ephesus. In chapter two he specifically addresses them:

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--This is specifically addressed to them. This was their condition, especially after the introductory chapter, and the following verses. He is speaking about the conditions in this church. Every church is different. This church didn't have the problems with spiritual gifts that the Corinthian Church had, nor a member that had been committing incest. He didn't have to address problems like that here.
But what he did have to address was a problem of unity among both Jews and Gentiles, and explains that both are one in Christ. This was a mystery to the Jews in the OT, which up until the time of Paul's writing was not made clear to them. It has nothing to do with a covenant. God had made covenants with Israel. The Gentiles were outside of those covenants. But now, after the Jews and Gentiles have come to Christ, been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they are both one in Christ. This is not a covenant; rather a relationship with Christ.

here it is in Romans-

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Hint.....those who were not my people[non covenant gentiles]
are going to be called[my people] this is covenant language.

There is no such thing as "covenant language" in the Bible. It is simply language that Presbyterian theologians read into the Bible, but is not there. Read and study the Bible not the Presbyterian theologians.
I don't know anything about "covenant language," I know about "Bible language." That is the language I speak.

What you don't want to admit is that the Lord is speaking to Israel.
He first speaks to Israel and refers to their past. He refers to their present, and he refers to their future. Whereas you allegorize the Scripture to believe that Israel in the future somehow means Christianity, it doesn't. The subject doesn't change. It is still Israel. It is Israel in the future. And the Lord will fulfill and complete his promise with Israel in the future. God will not fail Israel.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

I have never seen anyone confuse Matthew Henry with the writing of Ellen G White.

And as Mt.Henry is not speaking about infant sprinkling in this PASSAGE what do you think of what verses he offered? Look at the teaching offered ,not the person.

I didn't. I was giving you an example that was not well explained.
Let me put it this way.

I spend a lot of time in the Other Christian Denom. Forum.
We used to have some SDA's present there.
They were quite adamant that one should keep the Sabbath, and is quite a serious sin if one does not--as the quote I gave you suggests.
The one poster I debated with always posted Scripture. Not once did he use Ellen G. White's materials. I commended him for that.

Once there was a poster who did post from the "Great Controversy." He did so much that he eventually was banned. You are not going to convince anyone on this board to keep the Sabbath by quoting from SDA sources. Do you see the point I was making?

Neither are you going to convince me of the covenantal position by quoting from Presbyterians. It is just as ridiculous.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

So....Bottom line is you do not want to be teachable,but just hold what you do.
Has it ever dawned on you that perhaps the Presbyterians you rail against might have studied the bible also?
Are you saying you can not learn from a Christian who is Presbyterian?
Do you believe they are christians?

There is no such thing as "covenant language" in the Bible. It is simply language that Presbyterian theologians read into the Bible, but is not there. Read and study the Bible not the Presbyterian theologians.
I don't know anything about "covenant language," I know about "Bible language." That is the language I speak.

So you are saying that what I offered is not biblical language for the people in covenant relation to God?

Scripture describes the covenant as a loving relationship of close communion between God and us. Scripture teaches this clearly, so that there is no excuse for the errors, the confusion, and the ignorance concerning the covenant on the part of many Christians and churches. First, in virtually every passage where the covenant is on the foreground, especially, where there is a new, progressive development of the covenant, the same words occur. They are the words, “I will be your God, and you will be my people.” By these words, God reveals to us what the covenant is, the nature of the covenant. They are found in Genesis 17:7 , where God establishes the covenant with Abraham; in the preface to the ten commandments, by which God established the covenant with Israel as a nation, in Exodus 20:2 ; in Jeremiah 31:33 , where God promised the new covenant with Israel and Judah; and in Revelation 21:3, where John saw the new creation and the glorified church in the day of Christ.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Lets take a look.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

the heathen were non covenant people, but were grafted into these covenant promises...that is what Hosea is talking about.

4 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


What did God make with Abraham and His seed?...was it a Covenant??? is that biblical language?

 

[DHK]

DHK,

So....Bottom line is you do not want to be teachable,but just hold what you do.
Has it ever dawned on you that perhaps the Presbyterians you rail against might have studied the bible also?
Are you saying you can not learn from a Christian who is Presbyterian?
Do you believe they are christians?

You apparently don't understand my illustration. But never mind. If I wanted to become a Presbyterian then I would take the time to study Presbyterianism, but I don't. That doesn't make me unteachable. That makes me Biblically correct in that I know what I believe and why I believe it. I believe I have the truth, and that I don't have to read and study someone else's error to make sure that I have the truth. Now, does that make sense to you?

So you are saying that what I offered is not biblical language for the people in covenant relation to God?

No it isn't. It isn't, because what I offer you in rebuttal you don't even try to answer. If this were any kind of debate at all you would answer my posts instead of simply posting reams of other material. I have answered your objections concerning Isaiah 49 and Eph.2, but then you ignore it. I guess you are defeated in your debate. You just go on to other passages like the J.W.'s I encounter. Stay with the topic.
For example, why can't you give an intelligent answer to the end of chapter 49:

Isaiah 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Compare it to:
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

When Christ comes again, he comes for the nation of Israel. He defeats the enemies of Israel. Their bodies are left for the fowl of the air. And then he establishes His Kingdom, which Isaiah 49 is speaking about. There may be some of those verses that are only partially fulfilled at the time of Christ, but their main fulfillment is in the Millennial Kingdom. One can go verse by verse throughout the entire chapter and see how promise after promise is directed to the nation of Israel (not the Gentiles), and to the time period of the Millennial Kingdom. Now if I believe that I am right, why should I read those whom I believe are wrong?

You say I am not teachable; I can say the same about you.

Scripture describes the covenant as a loving relationship of close communion between God and us. Scripture teaches this clearly, so that there is no excuse for the errors, the confusion, and the ignorance concerning the covenant on the part of many Christians and churches.

Perhaps the confusion is on your part.
I am in a loving relationship with my Savior. A covenant is made between two parties which implies works. The relationship I am in is all of grace, received by faith. There are no works involved, and therefore no covenant. Think of covenant at Mount Sinai. It was of works.

First, in virtually every passage where the covenant is on the foreground, especially, where there is a new, progressive development of the covenant, the same words occur. They are the words, “I will be your God, and you will be my people.” By these words, God reveals to us what the covenant is, the nature of the covenant. They are found in Genesis 17:7 , where God establishes the covenant with Abraham; in the preface to the ten commandments, by which God established the covenant with Israel as a nation, in Exodus 20:2 ; in Jeremiah 31:33 , where God promised the new covenant with Israel and Judah;

Most of them sealed with works. Christianity is not like that.

]Lets take a look.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

the heathen were non covenant people, but were grafted into these covenant promises...that is what Hosea is talking about.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What did God make with Abraham and His seed?...was it a Covenant??? is that biblical language?

NO, it was not a covenant. We are not Abraham's physical seed. We are his spiritual seed, and not by a covenant, but by faith. Abraham was justified by faith, and so are we. That has nothing to do with covenants; in fact it goes against your theology.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

You apparently don't understand my illustration. But never mind. If I wanted to become a Presbyterian then I would take the time to study Presbyterianism, but I don't. That doesn't make me unteachable. That makes me Biblically correct in that I know what I believe and why I believe it. I believe I have the truth, and that I don't have to read and study someone else's error to make sure that I have the truth. Now, does that make sense to you?

DHK......I understood your example. No one wants you to become Presbyterian.Just to see truth here.

No it isn't. It isn't, because what I offer you in rebuttal you don't even try to answer. If this were any kind of debate at all you would answer my posts instead of simply posting reams of other material

I answered you quite well actually.A few paragraphs to look over is not too much to ask is it?

I have answered your objections concerning Isaiah 49 and Eph.2, but then you ignore it. I guess you are defeated in your debate.

Your responses ignored the scripture I posted and were non responses.

Phillipians was written addressing unity problems.Ephesians to reveal God's eternal purpose.eph3:9-11.

You completely ignore the Covenant language of Hosea Paul quotes as well as Peter..
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.

9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

You just go on to other passages like the J.W.'s I encounter. Stay with the topic

.

DHK///Your Dispensational leanings Does not let you see What others see .You want biblical language, i offer it....and now You say i bounce like a JW?

I did not sign up to do a verse by verse commentary for every book,everytime i offer a section of a book.

When Christ comes again, he comes for the nation of Israel. He defeats the enemies of Israel. Their bodies are left for the fowl of the air. And then he establishes His Kingdom, which Isaiah 49 is speaking about. There may be some of those verses that are only partially fulfilled at the time of Christ, but their main fulfillment is in the Millennial Kingdom

.

That is the Dispensational teaching....Paul quotes the passage.....you say partial ...I would say fully.

One can go verse by verse throughout the entire chapter and see how promise after promise is directed to the nation of Israel (not the Gentiles), and to the time period of the Millennial Kingdom. Now if I believe that I am right, why should I read those whom I believe are wrong?

Because a careful study of Isa 40-66 shows it includes the gentiles to the covenant promises...Paul quotes from Isa.17 times in romans 9-15...:thumbs:

You say I am not teachable; I can say the same about you.

Perhaps the confusion is on your part.
I am in a loving relationship with my Savior. A covenant is made between two parties which implies works. The relationship I am in is all of grace, received by faith. There are no works involved, and therefore no covenant. Think of covenant at Mount Sinai. It was of works.

Most of them sealed with works. Christianity is not like that.

God's covenant was made within the Godhead,and given to all those In Christ...before the world was:

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

NO, it was not a covenant. We are not Abraham's physical seed. We are his spiritual seed, and not by a covenant, but by faith. Abraham was justified by faith, and so are we. That has nothing to do with covenants; in fact it goes against your theology.

Evidently you did not read when I posted to you about Pauls use of tecnon

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise,


4 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.



I will stand by my posts.You might not want to look , but maybe others will read and see what I see.

 

[saturneptune]

I understood your example. No one wants you to become Presbyterian.Just to see truth here.

As another poster pointed out to me, some of my observations about the Presbyterian church in posts to you are probably predjudiced by memories of growing up. Because I saw elders elected on social status instead of spiritual maturity, that does not mean all elders are. Also, the Presbyterians and Baptists share a lot of common beliefs. Some of your positions stated are based on covenant theology and doctrines of grace, not Presbyterianism. It may seem similar because those two doctrines are what most Presbyterian churches are built on.

So for me to have said you are promoting the Presbyterian church is not fair, and I owe you an apology. There is no solid mainstream belief within the Baptist faith on these two issues, as there is in Presbyterian and Methodist. (totally opposite on election). Baptists are still working out election and covenant theology, and it may never be settled.

I think one must remember that Presbyterians are not fond of the RCC, but may be slightly closer than Baptists. I have been to Methodist, Lutheran, Episcable, and Presbyterian services. The first three have many RCC leftovers, like calling last Sunday the second Sunday of Epiphany. I had to look it up to even see what that meant. The Presbyterians do that less so.

Again, I had no right to call you a Presbyterian for showing a Biblical case for covenant theology.

 

[Iconoclast]

saturneptune;



As we speak there are several men that I know that work at showing a Baptist Covenant theology.....several recent books are in print....using some of the Particular Baptist writings and some plain biblical scholarship

http://www.monergismbooks.com/Coven...ic-Perspective-on-Gods-Covenants-p-20205.html

The book shows how we can agree in many places and yet also why we differ.

As another poster pointed out to me, some of my observations about the Presbyterian church in posts to you are probably predjudiced by memories of growing up. Because I saw elders elected on social status instead of spiritual maturity, that does not mean all elders are.

I have no doubt you sadly observed this years ago.Anytime any church departs from the scriptural instruction and substitutes the flesh it cannot go well for that church.....the blessing of God departs.

Also, the Presbyterians and Baptists share a lot of common beliefs. Some of your positions stated are based on covenant theology and doctrines of grace, not Presbyterianism. It may seem similar because those two doctrines are what most Presbyterian churches are built on.

Because of their theology and the roots of the reformers,and puritans focused on these truths ,much of the truth that is in print comes from those sources. We can agree on much and yet remain separate as a baptists.

So for me to have said you are promoting the Presbyterian church is not fair, and I owe you an apology

:wavey: Once I post things that you find objectionable,then everything I post you look at with a jaundiced eye.It happens more often than it should and we should be able to move on.From your responses I think you are reading to much into my intent.
My posts have a hard edge to them and others react or over react.
Some are in agreement. If we all agreed on everything there would be less
reason to post.

Some of your positions stated are based on covenant theology and doctrines of grace, not Presbyterianism. It may seem similar because those two doctrines are what most Presbyterian churches are built on.

I will seek out truth wherever i find it.Years ago at a family bible conference I was able to hear Sinclair Ferguson preach 3 messages on the beatitudes that were outstanding. I will listen to the clerk at the grocery store if he has truth from scripture:thumbs:

On sermonaudio...I listen to all the men.I want to know why godly men differ.I want to know and understand their best position on the continuity of the covenant from Ot to NT. I want to know and be able to repeat accurately their position,and then show why as a reformed baptist I differ.

The same with Endtimes or DoG, or any area of theology.
In my recent discussion with DHK...he does not want to consider what Mattew Henry offers in His Commentary?

He is free to not read it, but I do not think that is the correct way to approach truth.

 

[DHK]

Your responses ignored the scripture I posted and were non responses.

There is the problem right there in a nutshell. It is your arrogance and condemnatory response as given above. You won't debate. You call it a nonresponse. Why didn't I respond to Hosea? Because you wouldn't go on to give an answer to the objections I raised concerning the other two passages in Isaiah 49 and Eph.2. To you they are "non-responses" so just flood the board with other Scripture. That is not debate, Icon. It is arrogance. If you are going to debate then stay with the Scripture being debated instead of flitting to some other Scripture without answering the poster's response. Really, what you do is just plain rude.

 

[Jerome]

Thank You Jerome,
That is a great truth that I need to be reminded of often.

In the heat of debate I certainly can lose sight of the long term goal if I focus too much on the short term adversary rather than on pleasing him who has called by His electing love.
. . . . .
There is much hardness out in the world,and here on BB.When I am out in the world I am more on guard for it. As I get older I have a severe dislike for professed Christians who cannot seem to let their yes be yes, and their no be no.
If someone has TRUTH.....they do not need to post or say something that they ...think you were saying.Instead of letting you say exactly what you said. If a statement is in doubt,ask....what did you mean when you said this.Is that to much to ask on a Christian board?

Huh?

The verse was offered because it contains 'mayor'.

Remember amidst all that jabbering about 'ekklesia' you were saying you couldn't see 'mayor' being used for a church officer?

That's all. Relax.