The Gospel of Jesus Christ (Death, Burial & Resurrection)

[Yeshua1]

Bro HAMel said

"]I find it interesting how some folks try to limit our Lord. To box Him in. Consider the following:

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." (John 21:25)

...the world itself could not contain the books...??? Oh my..., how can this be? We have the Bible and it says that men are saved through the foolishness of preaching..., so that nails the lid down! According to that our Lord cannot save anyone He so desires unless they hear the message from a Preacher?

No thank you. My God is bigger than yours and I just can't find it in my to box Him in. To limit Him.

I mean, if there isn't enough room in the world to "contain all the books that should be written", perhaps..., just perhaps, a long shot if you will..., but just perhaps our Lord did not include all of His majesty within the Bible. Could He have left the door open for greater things for lesser people

In John 15:15, Christ tell his disciples"...ALL THINGS (concerning the new covenant) I have heard of my Father, I HAVE MADE KNOWN unto you (the church, the kingdom of God). The repeated command of the Father to the prophets was to declare unto Israel to "Hear the words of this covenant and do them." (Jer 11:6) Likewise, Christ, as THAT prophet, is declaring the new covenant, ordinances, sayings, words, commandments. He tells them in John 14, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Eze 11:20 says, "That they may walk in my statutes and keep mine ordinances and do them, and they shall be my people and I will be their God." How can His people keep his commandments (covenant) and do them if they have not been told? How can the church keep its commission (the charge, the will- Ezra 1:2, Mt 16:18) if it has not been told what it is? Therefore the all things (His ways) revealed/ made known to the church is complete in the scriptures and has no need for other additions or books in order to be understood by his people. All things means He has not left out ANYTHING concerning the pattern of the body of Christ, the church, described in the new covenant, How can we be conformed to and build according to his express image, if we do not know what it is? How can judgment and justice be done Gen 18:19) if ALL the words of the covenant (Exo 24:8, Jn 5:20) are not made know to His servants. Exodus 25:9 says, "According to ALL (things) that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, the pattern of ALL the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it." Since He shewed Moses ALL the pattern of the tabernacIe, it was necessary that Christ shew his disciples All the pattern of the true temple of God, the body of Christ, the church because a greater than Moses is come. I in no way disagree with your posting John 21:25. I do know if all thing that Christ did/spoke were written, they would still be after the same pattern/blueprint. The covenant was not just for those during the time of Christ but for His seedline/generation to follow (Gen 18:19), therefore it is necessary that the church today be given the same ALL THINGS/blueprint/covenant/teachings of the gospel/kingdom of God that we might know how to edify the body of Christ (Eph 4:16)

It is not limiting the Father in declaring those things in which He has intimately revealed himself/ His majesty/glory that HE IS/I AM to his people. How can his glory be declared if we do not know His mighty works? (Mt 16:18, I Cor 12:18, Isa 45:11) To Him be glory/majesty IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." Eph 3:21.

God Himself chosen to "limit" Himself to the preaching and teaching of the Cross of Christ!

 

[unprofitable]

Bro Yeshua,

I agree. The teaching of the covenant boundary lines are taught in the gospel, the teaching of the kingdom of God. The teaching of the cross in its entirety include the teaching of the kingdom of God,. Whenever you see the word gospel used, it is almost always used in association with the kingdom of God. Both Christ and John the Baptist came declaring the kingdom of God. The scriptures are full of references of who will have access to the kingdom of God both now and eternally. (Mt 7:23, 8:11) A kingdom has definite boundaries with a definite covenant, with ordinances, statues, and judgments. So does the kingdom of God. Christ never taught salvation apart from the kingdom of God.

 

[Dave G]

The fate of those who never had a chance to volitionally sin is not clearly answered in scripture. Lots of "theologians" have offered speculation which provides salvation for them, and others look at the text and see no path for those who die in "unbelief."

My speculation is that our just and loving God allows them to rest in piece, with no conscientiousness of the afterlife.

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." ( Psalms 51:5 )

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." ( Psalms 58:3 )

" for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" ( Romans 3:23 )

 

[Van]

Not sure what point you are making Dave, but yes, we are made sinners. But in the womb, scripture says is before we have done anything good or bad, Romans 9:11. My speculation addressed "the fate of those who never had a chance to volitionally sin."

 

[Dave G]

My Scripture quotes were intended to provoke thought into what God says about all of mankind...even babies.

 

[Van]

OK Dave, add Romans 9:11 and Romans 5:19 to the list.

 

[Dave G]

" But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 )

 

[unprofitable]

Yeshua 1,

The ALL i am talking about is not referring to the resurrection. I am talking about the kingdom of God, here and now. The ALL of which Christ spoke was the giving, bringing in, establishing of the new covenant, the righteous laws of the kingdom. It is concerning this kingdom that Christ made an oath that the gates of hell would not prevail against. (Mt16:18). Christ is leading his PEOPLE out from under the perverted understanding of the old covenant as a nation and kingdom, not in individuality apart from His body. Matthew 16:18 is the promise that he would gather His people TOGETHER, from under every nation under heaven, in the literal local covenant house. (Ps 50:5, 147:2, Isa 11:12). I Peter 2:9 says, "Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." Christ never saves anyone and leaves them outside of his body to wander around in the darkness. There is no election apart from the covenant. The choosing of election is the adoption/gathering of sons into the new covenant. The principle of I Peter 2:9 is the same as when it is said in Gen 17:19, concerning Isaac that "I will establish (choosing, election) MY COVENANT with him for an everlasting covenant, and his seed (people) after him. Gen. 17:12 says, "for in Isaac shall thy seed be called." To be " IN CHRIST" is to be made one with him in his covenant body. Ephesians 5:31 says, "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and be joined unto his wife and they two shall be one flesh. 5: 32) This is a great mystery, (of the kingdom Mt 13:11) but I speak concerning Christ and THE CHURCH. His body, His wife, one IN CHRIST. John 17 is His prayer for His church people that they may be one with/in Him and resulting in unity (one mind, one accord) and fellowship being restored IN the kingdom of God.

We are now faced with the dilemma of how to get babies into the covenant church body because I cannot find anywhere that the scriptures speak of them being in the covenant. Given the scriptures cited, how can unborn babies be gathered together in the body of Christ? We can't sprinkle them because, we, as Baptist administrators, are given the proper covenant ordinance of baptism. They cannot hear the words of the covenant and do them. They cannot confess their sins. They cannot repent. They cannot shew forth His praises. I am trying to give both you and Van scripture where you do not have to speculate.. From an emotional standpoint, I do not want anyone to go to hell.but what my heart may want must be in accordance with the volume of the book.

 

[Van]

Hi Unprofitable, I believe my speculation is consistent with all scripture. It certainly did not try to make those who die in unbelief part of the church.

 

[unprofitable]

No, I did not see you trying to make them a part of the church.

What I am trying to understand is if they are never physically brought to the birth and as you speculate (if I correctly understand what you are saying} they never become aware of their existence, for what reason do you think the Father created them? Isaiah 45:23 and Rom 14:11 say "EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue shall confess to God." This seems that there are NO exceptions. How do you square the two?

 

[Van]

I see I will have to work on my speculative solution to the issue. Great observation on your part. More prayer and study needed on my part. Off the top:

God causes or allows what so ever comes to pass, so the death of a person before salvation is allowed but not desired.

The "every" might only apply to those in the resurrection of the dead. Those who had not sinned, who had no record in the book used to judge, are not necessarily at that judgment.

Thin, yes, but I gave it a shot.

 

[Van]

Philippians 2:10-11 appears to present the best evidence my speculative solution is not viable. Everyone in the heavens, on the earth and under the earth seems to leave little wiggle room. But what if those resting in peace were not included as being "at the name of Jesus." In Isaiah 45:23 I see a loophole of sorts, the every includes believers (descendants of Israel) and those who "raged" against God, thus those who have done something bad.