The Gospel Saves, if...

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
You define believing in vain as not believing in the wrong thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said this.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, Paul only says that the vain believer forgets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the life of me, I can't find "forget" in 1 Cor 15:1-2. You will have to show this one to me.

The point I made is that vain belief is an empty belief, a belief that has not commitment behind it. The devils have a vain belief. And some "believers" have a vain belief that will not save them becuase it does not involve unreserved trust in and commitment to the person and work of Christ.

 

[Eladar]

"if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you"

If you don't keep it in memory, then you've forgotten it.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The point I made is that vain belief is an empty belief, a belief that has not commitment behind it. The devils have a vain belief. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The devil's belief is not a vain belief. The devil's belief is in himself, not in acknowledging Jesus as Lord. The demons knew that Jesus was the Son of God, but would not submit to Jesus as lord.

The vain believers accept Jesus Christ as Lord. Accepting Jesus Christ as lord is believing the word of God.

Paul is talking about 'keeping in mind' what was taught. If what was taught could save, it had to be that Jesus Christ is Lord, otherwise it wouldn't save even if it were 'kept in mind'.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
"if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I repeat, this is not in the text. The text uses the word κατεχω; it means to hold fast, keep, take, possess, etc. "Keep in memory" was an interpretation that does not quite do justice to the point. The point is that faith must be held; it cannot be abandoned. It is very similar to Hebrews 3:14: For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end. The same word is used here in "hold fast."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The devil's belief is not a vain belief. The devil's belief is in himself, not in acknowledging Jesus as Lord. The demons knew that Jesus was the Son of God, but would not submit to Jesus as lord.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is exactly what I have said a vain belief is. It is a failure to accept the truth about Christ as Lord by submitting to him in unreserved trust.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The vain believers accept Jesus Christ as Lord. Accepting Jesus Christ as lord is believing the word of God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where do you get this from? Please use some Scripture to support your view.

 

[TomVols]

One more shot at this Tuor:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1 Cor. 15:1-2 (ESV)
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, [2] and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a much more accurate rendering of the text. This answers your questions for you. I doubt it matters to you, though.

Verse 2 is very plain. They are being saved (Grk perfect) if they hold fast to the word preached to them. The only reason they would not be holding fast and being saved is if they believed in vain. I.e., their faith was not legit. I don't know how that can be missed.

 

[Eladar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Verse 2 is very plain. They are being saved (Grk perfect) if they hold fast to the word preached to them. The only reason they would not be holding fast and being saved is if they believed in vain. I.e., their faith was not legit. I don't know how that can be missed.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Or as Jesus says, they fall away due to persecution.

What I don't get is why you guys think the ones who believe in vain had to believe something different than the ones who do not believe in vain. The scripture gives no evidence of a difference in belief. As a matter of fact, the scripture appears to be saying that what is believed by both groups is exactly the same thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Keep in memory" was an interpretation that does not quite do justice to the point. The point is that faith must be held; it cannot be abandoned. It is very similar to Hebrews 3:14: For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've been thinking about "Keep in memory" and it could also mean 'put into practice'. Jesus says that what He taught must be put into practice. I could be another warning to put into practice what is taught, otherwise you believe in vain.


In any case, there is still the 'if' issue. I don't see how anyone can read this scripture and walk away believing that if one believes the Gospel and 'gets saved' at one point in one's life, it couldn't be in vain.

Why must the vain believer believe in something different?

Could this something different belief possibly save?

One other point:

The more correct translation says "and by which you are being saved". Notice Paul didn't say that you are saved. Their salvation therefore is a work in progress.

 

[TomVols]

Tuor wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Notice Paul didn't say that you are saved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1 Cor 15:1 is pretty clear:

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you standemphasis mine

They had received the gospel. How can they not be saved if they received the gospel? They were also standing in the gospel. They were believers. Verse 2 is also plain - they were saved, unless their belief (or mere assent) was in vain (futile, useless). This is not talking about a true, genuine convert. What part of this is so hard to understand? Why won't you let Scriptural teaching alone and stop twisting it?

 

[TomVols]

By the way, we're going in circles and have been for somet time. Unless there's new dialogue germane to the topic, let's wind this down. This is going nowhere.

 

[Eladar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1 Cor. 15:1-2 (ESV) Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, [2] and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He is talking to the same group all the time. He does not change groups.

&gt;&gt;Now I remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you.&lt;&lt;

The audience is those who Paul calls brothers.

&gt;&gt;which you received, in which you stand, [2] and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain. &lt;&lt;

These brothers received the gospel and are being saved(not are already saved), and this group of brothers will only be saved if they hold fast to the word that Paul preached to them. Paul then goes on to qualify the aspect of salvation by saying "unless you believed in vain". He is still talking to the brothers he was talking to in verse 1.

Paul is saying that within the group of brothers, that are being saved, that there may be some who will not be saved because they will not hold fast(or they get disqualified from the race).

 

[TomVols]

You are raising red herrings and ignoring plain Biblical evidence. I give up.

 

[Eladar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TomVols:
You are raising red herrings and ignoring plain Biblical evidence. I give up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, I am stating what this scripture plainly says. I know it goes against the 'once saved, always saved' interpretation of scripture, but shouldn't interpretations fit all scripture?

As you can see in other threads, what is plainly said in this scripture is also plainly said in others.

 

[Nelson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>by Larry: I am not convinced that a true believer will always know that he is a true believer. A true believer can doubt, and probably will at some point in his life. That is why Scripture gives us tests of true faith. I do think that as a general rule of life, a true believer can have confidence. On the other side, I think many who are not true believers are completely convinced that they are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Emphasis mine.

A logical observation only. If such is the case, there is the possibility that Larry himself (merely as an example), on the assumption that he is "completely convinced" that he is a true believer, in reality, may not be.

I am not stating that in reality he is not a true believer. I am only asserting that the possibility he is not a true believer is affirmed by his own statements.

Such a 50-50 proposition, as it seems, does not confirm the assurance of salvation as interpreted by the Calvinistic/Reformed position.

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nelson:
A logical observation only. If such is the case, there is the possibility that Larry himself (merely as an example), on the assumption that he is "completely convinced" that he is a true believer, in reality, may not be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An observation with which I would agree. I am not infallibly convinced. I do have assurance because I experience the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. I am currently preaching through 1 John which is written about "knowing that we know him." This past week was 3:19-20, that by "this" we can know that know him and set our hearts at rest in whatever they might condemn us. There is a way to know, but it is not infallible. As Paul says, Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith; for you have been saved, if you pass the test.

Fortunately for me, salvation is not dependent on me, the depth of my faith, or my ability to "hang on." I remember being an Arminian and laying awake at night wondering if my faith was strong enough, if I said the right thing in my prayers, wondering if the wires got crossed between me and God. Now, I go to sleep at night amazed that God would love me and save me in spite of myself.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Such a 50-50 proposition, as it seems, does not confirm the assurance of salvation as interpreted by the Calvinistic/Reformed position.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is entirely consistent.

 

[Nelson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>by Nelson: ...on the assumption that he is "completely convinced" that he is a true believer, in reality, may not be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>by Larry: An observation with which I would agree. I am not infallibly convinced. I do have assurance because...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Please note, if one is not "infallibly convinced," neither is one's "assurance" infallible.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Fortunately for me, salvation is not dependent on me...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The points made here are irrelevant now that Larry has admitted he is not sure he is of the elect.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now, I go to sleep at night amazed that God would love me and save me in spite of myself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can only conclude that Larry goes to bed amazed that God would love and - maybe (since he is not infallibly convinced) - save him in spite of his doubts that he is of the elect.

I would assume that in the Last Day, should one, in the same position as Larry, discover he is not included with the elect, all such amazement will cease.

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Nelson ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Nelson,

Your mind works in strange ways.

You have both a keen sense of the obvious while at the same time an inability to connect the obvious together. What I have said is not as hard to understand as you have made it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Please note, if one is not "infallibly convinced," neither is one's "assurance" infallible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very true. I have never argued that assurance is infallible. Nor has anyone who grasps what Scripture teaches.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The points made here are irrelevant now that Larry has admitted he is not sure he is of the elect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This seems to have no real basis in the conversation. The points are certainly not irrelevant. Perhaps you should read Scripture to see what it says about assurance. We can make it sure (2 Peter 1:11-12), meaning personal assurance. We have it as long as we hold fast (Heb 3:12-14). It comes, in large measure, from our actions in obedience (1 John 1-5). It can be examined (2 Cor 13) and found wanting (2 Cor 13). The Holy Spirit uses Scripture to witness with my spirit that I am the child of God and heirs with Christ.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I can only conclude that Larry goes to bed amazed that God would love and - maybe (since he is not infallibly convinced) - save him in spite of his doubts that he is of the elect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t have doubts that I am of the elect. But I am not infallible. Should I depart from doctrine and right living, I would be giving evidence that I am not of the elect.

BTW, all are in the same position as me. None of us are infallible in our understanding or our conviction about certain things.

 

[Eladar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I don’t have doubts that I am of the elect. But I am not infallible. Should I depart from doctrine and right living, I would be giving evidence that I am not of the elect.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Therefore you are saying that only time will tell. If you hold the course until you die, then you were correct in believing you are apart of the elect. If you don't then you were wrong.

This is what I've been saying all along.

***By the way, there are those who believe they are doing God's will, but really aren't. They worship God in vain, for although they worship Him with their lips, their hearts are far from Him***

 

[Nelson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>by Larry: I don’t have doubts that I am of the elect. But I am not infallible. Should I depart from doctrine and right living, I would be giving evidence that I am not of the elect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It is not hard to put the obvious together.

For example, Larry asserts on the first sentence that he has no doubts that he is of the elect.

However, on the second sentence he admits to fallibility, that is, that though he has no doubts he is of the elect,in reality, he may not be an elect. Or he may simply meant that there is some doubt regarding the fact that he has no doubts, which equals basically the same thing.

On the third sentence he states that there is the possibility that he may depart from the "doctrine and right living" and, consequently, give evidence of what he is not in doubt about but, which may possibly be reality, that is, that he is not of the elect after all.

And my mind works in strange ways?

 

[Eladar]

Larry,

How can you declare yourself saved, if only time will tell?

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nelson:
It is not hard to put the obvious together.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why do you find it difficult? I am not sure how to make it any clearer so I will let my previous comments stand. You are the one having a hard time with this.

You seem to have a hard time with the noetic effects of sin and its ramifications for this doctrine. You further seem to have a hard time understanding the Biblical passages. I listed some of them above which clearly mitigate against an infallible assurance. It does not mitigate against assurance. If you do not admit the possibility that you could fall from right doctrine, then you are missing the clear biblical admonitions to hold on. It clearly states that a person who does not hold onto right doctrine is not saved (Col 1:22-24; Heb 3:12-14; 1 John 2:19-27; 1 John 4:1ff). It also clearly states that a person who does not continue in right behavior is not saved (1 John 1:1-10, 2:1-17; 2:28-3:24; 4:10ff; a large portion of chapter 5; Heb 12:6ff.; Gal 5:16ff; etc.). In other words, Scripture never gives unqualified assurance. That does not affect the surety of our salvation. I can "not be sure" of any number fo things that are actually true. I can "be sure" of any number of things that are not true.

Again, I am not sure what the difficulty is here. You are not addressing any biblical passages or the truths that come from them, so I am not sure why we are having this discussion.

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
How can you declare yourself saved, if only time will tell?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because at the present time I am experiencing the fruit of salvation as described in the Scriptures. I experience the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the power for right living (most of the time

). I experience the witness of the Spirit with my spirit. I can see the fruits of the Spirit manifesting themselves in my life. I have a desire to love and please God.

 

[tyndale1946]

I Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Tom Vols said he wanted a different slant on this scripture and say the post was going around in a circle.

You all look scripture and apply it to one who believed in vain and was lost. I don't see that in the scripture at all.
First of all Paul preached the Gospel to those brethren, they received it, and took it to heart and stood in those truths declared.

They are saved not in an eternal sense because he is not talking about non-elect children of God but those that belong to him. The only thing they are saved from is being pulled back into the false doctrines that were prevelant in the early church.

They were still Gods children their eternal salvation was never in jeopardy. In jeopardy was their being pulled back into that law worship that Paul was delivered from... Brother Glen

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]