The Gospel that Calvinism cannot believe.

[JonC]

Hey Jon

I never really looked at it that deeply. Isn't His death on the cross, considered both satisfying God's justice and punishment? I'm not sure that I'm getting the importance of the distinction.

Would you say this is an accurate statement.

Your statement describes the belief in penal substitutionary atonement, but with a specific nuance that God was not punishing Jesus instead of humanity, but rather that Jesus took the penalty for sin upon Himself as a substitute. This perspective, supported by verses like 2 Corinthians 5:21 and 1 Peter 2:24, emphasizes that Jesus' suffering was a necessary act to satisfy God's justice and make reconciliation with God possible.

I'm still not seeing the difference between satisfying Gods justice and punishment. The penalty for sin is death, right? That's punishment, right?

Under Calvinism Christ's death is considered as satisfying God's justice but the punishment is also considered to be God's punishment for our sins He suffered instead of us.

Calvin reformed the Roman Catholic theory (Aquinas' theory) which viewed Jesus as suffering a punishment that God as judge accepted as a satisfaction for our sins as our sins fail to merit righteousness.

It was actually this theory (that Jesus suffered God's punishment for our sins instead of us suffering that punishment) that made me realize that Calvinism was unbiblical even though I believed it most of my life.

There are no passages that state that what Jesus suffered was God's punishment and the only passages that deal with Jesus as a type of substitute do so as representative substitution (like Adam represents all natural man, Jesus is another Adam....that type of thing).


Where the Bible presents Jesus' suffering and death as unjust, evil, suffering under the wicked, the powers of darkness BUT by the predetermined plan of God Calvinism views Christ's suffering and death as God's righteous judgment against our sin as an act of God.


To see what I mean, go through the Bible and write down how Scripture says we are forgiven.
Write down what the Bible says about Jesus' death.
Then highlight where the Bible states Jesus suffered God's punishment against our sin instead of us.

Then let's talk about the verses you highlighted.

 

[KenH]

Emphasis on "in Him, and "in Christ". If we are already in Christ from the foundations of the world, then we were never "in Adam" and never needed to be saved.

Every mere human being that has come and will come into being is "in Adam", a natural creation or a natural birth. Only God's elect, those He chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety, experience the new creation or the new birth "in Christ".

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible.

 

[JonC]

You write like salvation is similar to trying to find the winning horse to bet on in the Kentucky Derby.

I take no chances with my salvation, as my salvation is not resting on you, or Bill Parker, or any other man, but in the God-man, Christ Jesus. I know Whom I have believed.

2 Timothy 1:12 I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

And what have I committed unto Christ? My whole salvation.

No, I have never been to a horse race so that is just simething you infer. I could not write that way even if I wanted to simoly because it is foreign to me.

I know that you see no chance with your salvation. I would not expect that of you (otherwise you woukd do simething about it).

What I am saying is we be ome ar risk of "being carried away" by these philosophies when we cling too tightly to them. Many will call out to Jesus as their Lord only to hear "I never knew you", so it is important to trust God and His Word rather than the philosophies of man.

As far as your salvation goes, I could mot say you were saved or lost even if you decided to hold God's Word as true doctrine. All I can do is point out that you have drifted from God's Word and repeat warnings He gave us. You work out your own salvation, either with fear and trembling clinging to God's Word or by following human philosophy.

I guess a lot deoends on what ibe believes the faith we must "hold onto until the end" to be saved is. If it is Calvinism then I woukd say you are secure as long as you hold to it. But if it is God's Word then you may want to consider returning to Him.

That said, I do get your point. Under Calvinism, many Calvinists believe you are saved regardless of where you end up placing your faith as long as you are elected to salvation, so a little carelessness abd straying from God's Word is of little significance as the "road" is fairly broad.

 

[JonC]

Jon

Would the idea of Jesus being the one who was elect from the foundations of the world, and we are elect when we are "in him", that being after we come to faith, put any weight for or against your understanding that is quoted above?

Yes, absolutely. He (Jesus) is the Elect, elected from the foundation of the world. We are elect in Him (by virtue of Christ Himself....chosen in Him).

 

[Silverhair]

Every mere human being that has come and will come into being is "in Adam", a natural creation or a natural birth. Only God's elect, those He chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety, experience the new creation or the new birth "in Christ".

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible.

So what you are saying is God is either incompetent or His lying to us when he said
1Ti 2:3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But the actual situation is that you have misunderstood the word of God when you think some were pre-chosen before the foundation of the world.

You have followed a man-made philosophy and missed what God actually desires for His creation.

 

[KenH]

So what you are saying is God is either incompetent or His lying to us when he said
1Ti 2:3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God cannot lie. You are capable of lying. I am capable of lying. God is NOT capable of lying.

"Who will have all men to be saved,.... The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable...it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Tim 2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on 1 Timothy 2:4