The Great Apostasy

[ACF]

I am a new member here, but have been reading threads on this site from time to time for a number of years.

I have been a member of the Baptist church for about half a century.

I am interested in hearing other opinions on how the great falling away will occur.

The cause, the how, the when, and the why.

I will go first, at a very high level for now.

The way I understand it, the cause of apostasy will be from inside the church.

There will be false teachers, false doctrine, and misled believers.

In the end times, Christians of true faith will be persecuted, and killed, by those who will "believe" they are serving God.

This too will begin from inside the church.

I see these things being possible simply because there is a difference between "belief", and "faith", that many do no understand.

I will offer my opinion on any of this, but I will not engage in an argument with those that may disagree.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Already happening in many forms.

 

[kyredneck]

Hello ACF, welcome to the BB. This is a good topic for discussion.

Could you/would you provide at least one scripture reference for each of these assertions? Not doubting you at all, just curious what scripture you apply to this.

.... the cause of apostasy will be from inside the church.

There will be false teachers, false doctrine, and misled believers.

In the end times, Christians of true faith will be persecuted, and killed, by those who will "believe" they are serving God.

This too will begin from inside the church.

I see these things being possible simply because there is a difference between "belief", and "faith", that many do no understand.

 

[Van]

Amen, Kyredneck, too many discussions are not grounded in scripture, but rather in generalities.

I believe there are two types of "Apostacy" Type 1 occurs when professing Christians, who have not yet been born anew, follow ungodly paths, whether of their own invention or by being deceived by others.

The second type 2 Apostacy refers to born again believers who are sidetracked and build upon the foundation of Jesus with straw that gets burned up. They still get to heaven, but as one escaping from a fire.

When you provide your passages, you can also point out which type of apostacy is in view.

God Bless

Van

 

[freeatlast]

Hello ACF good to have you on board. I really believe that it is already in progress. I do not believe it has anything to do with the world, just the church. I say that because the world has always persecuted the church.
I think that as we see the church continue to fall away we will see less and less persecution on the organized church because it will be more and more closely related to the world.
I do believe there will be some persecution but it will be against those who refuse to compromise on the principles of the bible, but these will be very few people.
As to the church we are already seeing holiness taking a back seat. What we are seeing is mentioned in the bible and it will increase;
men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
I believe that these people who have this form of godliness (claim to be saved) will continue to grow and those who are really saved will become extremely few in number although the numbers of the organized church will stay relatively stable.
So to sum up I believe we will continue to see a full scale departing from holiness in the church just like we are seeing today.

 

[ACF]

Hi Van,

I completely agree that "too many discussions are not grounded in scripture".

I am not clear on what you mean about two types of Apostacy. To me, Apostasy is the same thing in both cases you mention.

Why didn't you provide some Scriptural references for your opinion on there being "two types of "apostacy"?

 

[ACF]

Hi KYREDNECK,

I am a red neck myself.

I apologize for speaking in generality, but I did so for the simple reason that I wanted other's “opinion”, more than I wanted to engage in a scriptural jousting match.

I do not otherwise have any problem providing some scriptural basis for my opinions, so I have quickly gathered a few verses which pertain to them.

There are many other verses that pertain to these things, but I am intentionaly being sparse with this for the reasons I stated above.

I assume most who will have an interest in responding to this thread, will have their own copy of a Bible.


... the cause of apostasy will be from inside the church.

2 Thessalonians 2 (read the entire chapter, but here are some verses which stand out)
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Timothy 4 (again read the entire chapter, but here are verses which stand out)
2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Matthew 7 (same as above)
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There will be false teachers, false doctrine, and misled believers.

(again read the whole chapters)

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.


In the end times, Christians of true faith will be persecuted, and killed, by those who will "believe" they are serving God.

This too will begin from inside the church.

John 16 (same as above, read the whole chapter)
2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.


I see these things being possible simply because there is a difference between "belief", and "faith", that many do no understand.

(Read all of James, it is a short book, but again verses that stand out)

James 2:18-19
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

[ACF]

It will be tomrrow before I can visit the site again, so please do not think a delayed response indicates anything other than my absence from the Internet.

 

[Van]

Hi ACF, I wanted you to "discover" in the scripture that you were referring to that what I said was true, or perhaps correct my view.

However, since you were reluctant to cite specifics, let me give it a shot. [Edit, I wrote this before you responded to Kyredneck.]

In 1 Timothy 4:1, Paul says, “But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” This is an example of the first type of apostasy where false teachers and false doctrine are in view, causing people to fall away from the sound doctrine of the “faith”.

Paul also teaches that apostasy will earmark the end of the age in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, again indicating that those affected will be of the unsaved “because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved” (2 Thess. 2:10)

In 2 Timothy 2:16-18, Paul identifies Philetus and Hymenaeus as people who have gone astray, teaching that the resurrection which believers look forward to has already taken place. And this false teaching also has upset the faith of some, which I think means not that someone saved has lost their salvation, but that someone who has heard the true gospel but has not yet believed from the heart was lead astray with a false gospel, hindering efforts to add to the number of believers.

In 1 Timothy 1:18-20, Paul commands Timothy to keep the faith, to not stray from the gospel, and to live such that he has a good conscience, pointing out that two others did not do that and made shipwreck of their faith. Again, it is unnecessary to assume loss of salvation, but rather simply the falling away of those that do not love God more than anything else, and hence were never chosen by God despite attaining some influence in the church. Demas (2 Timothy 4:10) fits this model of apostasy perfectly.

 

[MB]

I am one who believes that this apostacy has started and is progresively becoming worse by each passing day. I read this morning that some believe the false Prophet and the Anti Christ is already here. I believe ecumenism is an apostacy and it is happening right before our eyes. With contemplative prayer being practice in Christian churches. An eastern religious practice along with Yoga. Certainly American churches are under going tremendus change that certainly isn't for the good.

I also read that the so called final Pope called Petrus Romanus will soon be taking the throne I guess they do not expect Benedict's rule to be very long because of his age. Even Catholic priest fear the next Pope.

My Brothers reformed church has gone back in to roman catholicism along with my brother of course. He's conviced the reformation was a huge mistake and now swears that there is no Salvation apart from the Holy Roman Church.

It's strange times we live in. Knowledge has increase the apostacy and Israel back in there home land should let every know that His comming is very near. All I can hope for is come quickly Lord.
MB

 

[DaChaser1]

Amen, Kyredneck, too many discussions are not grounded in scripture, but rather in generalities.

I believe there are two types of "Apostacy" Type 1 occurs when professing Christians, who have not yet been born anew, follow ungodly paths, whether of their own invention or by being deceived by others.

The second type 2 Apostacy refers to born again believers who are sidetracked and build upon the foundation of Jesus with straw that gets burned up. They still get to heaven, but as one escaping from a fire.

When you provide your passages, you can also point out which type of apostacy is in view.

God Bless

Van

Apostate Christianity started to happen in early Church during time of the Apostles!

Form of it, denied nature of God, man salvation etc!

Think there will be a final full Apostacy in End times...

Apsotate Christians were never saved by God, for if they were of Christ, never would ahve departed the faith, per Apostle John!

 

[Mark_13]

(2 Th 2:3-4 NASB) Let no one in any way deceive you, for unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

This is not an apostasy occurring inside the Church, unless you think that's where the beast of Revelation is coming from. The passage above says he will exalt himself above anthing held sacred even presenting himself with all the power of God. The Beast and his System is an apostasy by all human kind against God in a very fundamental way. The term is not used by Paul anywhere else but here.

And btw, when it says he takes his seat in the temple of God it does not mean someone will walk into a newly built temple in Jerusalem and say, "Look at me everyone - I'm God!" The temple probably represents the human mind ("do you not know that you are the temple of God") and so the system of the beast probably entails mind reading and mind control and a worldwide totalitarian society based on technology (supercomputers satellites, etc able to watch everyone simultaneously, imo).

 

[beameup]

(2 Th 2:3-4 NASB) Let no one in any way deceive you, for unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god,
and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women [to birth Messiah] , nor regard any god:
for he shall magnify himself above all. But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not - Dan 11:36-38a

The Bride of Christ [all true believers] cannot be on earth during this time as all earth inhabitants will be deceived by the False Christ
except the "elect" genetic Israelites and those who are evangelized and saved and "endure until the end", ie: martyrdom.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth,
and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Rev 14:6

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi KYREDNECK,

I am a red neck myself.

I apologize for speaking in generality, but I did so for the simple reason that I wanted other's “opinion”, more than I wanted to engage in a scriptural jousting match.

I do not otherwise have any problem providing some scriptural basis for my opinions, so I have quickly gathered a few verses which pertain to them.

There are many other verses that pertain to these things, but I am intentionaly being sparse with this for the reasons I stated above.

I assume most who will have an interest in responding to this thread, will have their own copy of a Bible.


... the cause of apostasy will be from inside the church.

2 Thessalonians 2 (read the entire chapter, but here are some verses which stand out)
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Timothy 4 (again read the entire chapter, but here are verses which stand out)
2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Matthew 7 (same as above)
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There will be false teachers, false doctrine, and misled believers.

(again read the whole chapters)

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.


In the end times, Christians of true faith will be persecuted, and killed, by those who will "believe" they are serving God.

This too will begin from inside the church.

John 16 (same as above, read the whole chapter)
2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.


I see these things being possible simply because there is a difference between "belief", and "faith", that many do no understand.

(Read all of James, it is a short book, but again verses that stand out)

James 2:18-19
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I believe that the apostasy described here happened before 70 ad.

 

[kyredneck]

I believe that the apostasy described here happened before 70 ad.

Agree.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I believe that the apostasy described here happened before 70 ad.

I gues that one's view of the 'Great Tribulation' or 'Satan's Little Season' will depend on one's general eschatology. As an Amillennialist, it seems to me that many of the happenings mentioned on this thread have been happening all through the present age.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

This has gone on all through the ages from Elymas (Acts 13:8) to Alexander the coppersmith (2Tim 4:14-15) through all the Romanists, Unitarians, French Prophets, J.W.s, Mormons and assorted heretics about today.

John 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

I think Iconoclast or Kyredneck will have a hard time convincing me that this stuff has not been going on all through Church history, whether in the persecutions of Decius and Diocletion, the Inquisition, the Marian Martyrs, the 'killing times' in Scotland under Charles II and James right down to the Muslim persecutions of today. Sometimes things have got easier, sometimes harder, but there have always been persecutions somewhere in the world for God's people. The 'love of the greater number' has always grown cold as people turn away from the Gospel in heart, if not always in outward show.

But the Bible does indicate that right at the end, things will get substantially worse. In Rev 11, the two witnesses are able to carry on inspite of people wanting to harm them, but in verse 7, they are killed and Christian witness lies dead in the street for a short time. In Rev 13, the beast out of the sea is ruling and deceiving many all through the age. But in verse 6ff, suddenly things get much worse.

So there will be a 'Satan's little Season' at some point. Whether we're in it or not right now, I don't know. Things are pretty terrible in so many countries across the world, and they're not so great here in Britain, but our task is not to worry or speculate about that but to watch and be faithful, 'For you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming' (Matt 25:13).

Steve

 

[kyredneck]

I gues that one's view of the 'Great Tribulation' or 'Satan's Little Season' will depend on one's general eschatology. As an Amillennialist, it seems to me that many of the happenings mentioned on this thread have been happening all through the present age.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

This has gone on all through the ages from Elymas (Acts 13:8) to Alexander the coppersmith (2Tim 4:14-15) through all the Romanists, Unitarians, French Prophets, J.W.s, Mormons and assorted heretics about today.

John 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

I think Iconoclast or Kyredneck will have a hard time convincing me that this stuff has not been going on all through Church history, whether in the persecutions of Decius and Diocletion, the Inquisition, the Marian Martyrs, the 'killing times' in Scotland under Charles II and James right down to the Muslim persecutions of today. Sometimes things have got easier, sometimes harder, but there have always been persecutions somewhere in the world for God's people. The 'love of the greater number' has always grown cold as people turn away from the Gospel in heart, if not always in outward show.

But the Bible does indicate that right at the end, things will get substantially worse. In Rev 11, the two witnesses are able to carry on inspite of people wanting to harm them, but in verse 7, they are killed and Christian witness lies dead in the street for a short time. In Rev 13, the beast out of the sea is ruling and deceiving many all through the age. But in verse 6ff, suddenly things get much worse.

So there will be a 'Satan's little Season' at some point. Whether we're in it or not right now, I don't know. Things are pretty terrible in so many countries across the world, and they're not so great here in Britain, but our task is not to worry or speculate about that but to watch and be faithful, 'For you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming' (Matt 25:13).

Steve

MM, I generally agree with you. I believe that during each of the 'epochs' of the seven heads (Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, Roman, and Germanic (ten epochs within itself)) there were/are tribulation, persecution, war, famine, apostasy, etc.

When it comes to Revelation, I'm probably as much Historicist/Idealist than anything else, but Preterist for the sixth head (Rome), in which was the 'epoch' that the book was written.

I fail to see where 'THE GREAT' apostasy or tribulation is defined or nailed down though. I believe much of the wrath illustrated in Revelation is hyperbole and is to be directly attributed to 'the time of Jacob's trouble' (AD 66-70).

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello Martin

John 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

I think Iconoclast or Kyredneck will have a hard time convincing me that this stuff has not been going on all through Church history, whether in the persecutions of Decius and Diocletion, the Inquisition, the Marian Martyrs, the 'killing times' in Scotland under Charles II and James right down to the Muslim persecutions of today. Sometimes things have got easier, sometimes harder, but there have always been persecutions somewhere in the world for God's people. The 'love of the greater number' has always grown cold as people turn away from the Gospel in heart, if not always in outward show.

Martin......we do not go to the synagogue now...as they did in the first century....kredneck listed verses where Jesus plainly spoke of this generation...those who He was speaking to...that leads to a 70 ad conclusion.
Furthermore....the book of Hebrews with its 3 major warnings of Apostasy was also written right before the Apostasy took place.

Have there been other times of apostasy as you have posted? Yes for sure even as there is still apostasy in our day.There will always be an element of tares among the wheat.
People commonly pull out verses ...like perilous times shall come...in the last days.....then they bring it to our day! They want to insist that we are the "terminal generation".
What if we are still...THE EARLY CHURCH? What if God has purposed to save people for 19.5 million more years?
We are to live as if he could come at anytime . We are to plan as if he could come today. But we also need to know thatn the scripture indicates all the world will have a knowledge of Him;
psalm22 ;27All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations


psalm72:8He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Before replying, let me say that I hold my eschatalogical views very lightly. God is going to do what he's going to do and you and I aren't going to stop Him. I therefore don't fall out with folk over Last Things. The only exception I make to that is to the Hyper-preterists who deny that Christ is returning at all. I have no truck at all with that as you may have observed.

Hello Martin
Martin......we do not go to the synagogue now...as they did in the first century....kredneck listed verses where Jesus plainly spoke of this generation...those who He was speaking to...that leads to a 70 ad conclusion.

I don't believe that you can limit our Lord's words just to the people of His time, any more than I believe that you can limit them to the people of today. I am writing a blog article on this and I will link to it when it's finished. FWIW, James uses 'Synagogue' to describe a Christian church (James 2:2).

Furthermore....the book of Hebrews with its 3 major warnings of Apostasy was also written right before the Apostasy took place.

When do you believe that Hebrews was written? And what apostasy are you thinking of? My impression is that Hebrews was written only a very few years before AD 70.

Have there been other times of apostasy as you have posted? Yes for sure even as there is still apostasy in our day.There will always be an element of tares among the wheat.

My point was that nothing changed in AD 70, except for the people living in Palestine. The apostasy, the persecution, the wars went on just as before.

People commonly pull out verses ...like perilous times shall come...in the last days.....then they bring it to our day! They want to insist that we are the "terminal generation".
What if we are still...THE EARLY CHURCH? What if God has purposed to save people for 19.5 million more years?

I agree with you here. We do not know when Christ will return. We are to live as if he could come at anytime .

We are to plan as if he could come today. But we also need to know that the scripture indicates all the world will have a knowledge of Him;
psalm22 ;27All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations

psalm72:8He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

Amen! But the ends of the earth are turning to the Lord right now. And of course the Lord is reigning and has dominion over the world right now. While we do not know when the Lord will come, nothing prevents Him from coming tonight.

Steve

 

[asterisktom]

Before replying, let me say that I hold my eschatalogical views very lightly. God is going to do what he's going to do and you and I aren't going to stop Him. I therefore don't fall out with folk over Last Things. The only exception I make to that is to the Hyper-preterists who deny that Christ is returning at all. I have no truck at all with that as you may have observed.

Thanks for the chuckle, Steve.

For the record - again - there is a distinction between believing Christ is not returning at all and believing Christ already returned. Whether you believe that second part or not, please, quit putting words in Preterists' mouths.

One of the basic tenets of discussion courtesy, not to say the very credibility of the debater, is to be able to cogently state the opponents view.