The Great Apostasy

[convicted1]

Willis,
i am very dogmatic about the five points.On endtimes I am okay with whatever Jesus does. I know he is Lord and Christ now....I know he is ruling in the midst of His enemies now...from Heaven as per my previous post.

As long as brothers know and understand he is returning bodily and physically and we will see Him face to face i am okay with whatever timeline God wants to use...as I know all true believers are ..AMEN:wavey:

I have in the last 6-7 years tried to read the best men ,and sermons on each view:thumbs: in the mean time..while end times are very important and exciting...we are given a primary task to worship and serve the Lord in Holiness. We are to beg God in prayer to help us mortify sin...so we can be effective witnesses to the lost and dying all around us....
Brother ...each person that God brings in our path is a sinner who needs the salvation of God. I view each opportunity to speak about the precious blood,as a life line to one who might be one of the multitude that Jesus came to save.....[yes willis...one of the elect:wavey:...because I do not know who is and who isn't}
So i will explain that God translates sinners who he saves out of the kingdom of satan.....into the Kingdom of God...two seeds. two Adam's....to destinies....life eternal/second death....
knowing all the endtime views helps...but when talking to an unsaved I keep it more general [white throne judgement]and address the sin and death question...then provide the Life that God gives as the God given remedy.....2cor 5:17:thumbs:

Thank you for your cordial response. The reason why I asked was because I thought you were amill, but you seem to be closer inline with the historic premills, if I understand that doctrine correctly.


Though I am amill, wherever my Lord, Master, Saviour, God, is going to reign for eternity, I'll be there!! By His Grace, Love, Mercy, shed blood, Living water, He has made me ready to answer when He calls my name! Glory to the Lamb of God!! Hallelujah!!! These are shouting words!!!

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you for your cordial response. The reason why I asked was because I thought you were amill, but you seem to be closer inline with the historic premills, if I understand that doctrine correctly.


Though I am amill, wherever my Lord, Master, Saviour, God, is going to reign for eternity, I'll be there!! By His Grace, Love, Mercy, shed blood, Living water, He has made me ready to answer when He calls my name! Glory to the Lamb of God!! Hallelujah!!! These are shouting words!!!

:applause: Willis..I thought when i moved away from dispy..I thought I was amill also:laugh: But then i found out some of the teaching that I was reading was post-mill which i used to think was just wrong....I am taking another look. Ladd and spurgeon were historic premills....
at this point i am an endtime MUTT:laugh:

Though I am amill, wherever my Lord, Master, Saviour, God, is going to reign for eternity, I'll be there!! By His Grace, Love, Mercy, shed blood, Living water, He has made me ready to answer when He calls my name! Glory to the Lamb of God!! Hallelujah!!! These are shouting words!!!

Exactly Willis!!!!

 

[convicted1]

:applause: Willis..I thought when i moved away from dispy..I thought I was amill also:laugh: But then i found out some of the teaching that I was reading was post-mill which i used to think was just wrong....I am taking another look. Ladd and spurgeon were historic premills....
at this point i am an endtime MUTT:laugh:

Exactly Willis!!!!

The reason why I am amill is because I see this world being destroyed. When Jesus comes to seperate the Wheat/tares, the Wheat go with Christ, and the tares are cast into the lake of fire. IOW, there will be heaven and the lake, and nothing else.

 

[kyredneck]

... i am an endtime MUTT:laugh:

Join the crowd. I'm a conglomeration of several views.

 

[convicted1]

Iconoclast posted this:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast
... i am an endtime MUTT:laugh:

Join the crowd. I'm a conglomeration of several views.

Now hear this!


Brothers KYR and Iconoclast are the BB's version of "MUTT and Jeff"!!

J/K Brothers........


:love2: :love2:

 

[beameup]

So, then your position is that we are now in the Kingdom

Yes.

I have had considerable contact with the Catholic third world, having just returned from 6 years abroad. I have many personal experiences and observations.

Essentially, their position is that we are in God's Kingdom, but the "seat of power" (so to speak) has shifted from David's Throne in Jerusalem
to the Apostle Peters "throne" in Rome. The Catholic church views itself as that mustard seed that will grow and spread and fill the whole world.
The Lord's Supper is shared world-wide daily to Jews and Gentiles alike who are partakers.

This theological stance of supremacy over the earth is justifiable and probably accounts for the fact that the Holy Catholic Church is growing significantly
world-wide and that many former protestants are returning to Rome. I can understand how many are attracted to the "clarity" and "stability" of the Catholic Church.

Of course, all of this completely ignores the fact that fundamentalist Islam is growing even faster and bodes of massive historical movements of ancient history.

I have heard some say the the God Allah is the same as the God YHWH, but I do not see any trend toward "accommodation" by the Islamic World toward the God of Christianity.

 

[DaChaser1]

Im in your camp here.....these things have been happening for centuries.

types/foreshadowing/partial fulfillments =that all point towards a full fullfilment in the end of the end days!

 

[DaChaser1]

Thank you for your cordial response. The reason why I asked was because I thought you were amill, but you seem to be closer inline with the historic premills, if I understand that doctrine correctly.


Though I am amill, wherever my Lord, Master, Saviour, God, is going to reign for eternity, I'll be there!! By His Grace, Love, Mercy, shed blood, Living water, He has made me ready to answer when He calls my name! Glory to the Lamb of God!! Hallelujah!!! These are shouting words!!!

historic pre Mil emphasised that Jesus will be returning in end of theis era, to set up a physical/earthy kingdom upon the earth!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

ACF...
Some have put forth the date of 64ad

one reason is that John is told to measure the temple;
Revelation 11

I don't think this is any reason to subscribe to an early date for Revelation.
The whole of Ezekiel's temple was measured (Ezek 40ff) and that temple was not in existence at that time, nor indeed at any time since.

As long as brothers know and understand he is returning bodily and physically and we will see Him face to face I am okay with whatever timeline God wants to use.

Amen! :thumbs:

Steve

 

[asterisktom]

I don't think this is any reason to subscribe to an early date for Revelation.
The whole of Ezekiel's temple was measured (Ezek 40ff) and that temple was not in existence at that time, nor indeed at any time since.

This temple will never be in existence. Or are we to believe that there will once again be circumcision (Ezek. 44:7, 9) and sacrifices for sin?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This temple will never be in existence. Or are we to believe that there will once again be circumcision (Ezek. 44:7, 9) and sacrifices for sin?

I do not believe that we shall ever see Ezekiel's temple in existence. You have missed my point. I was saying that neither the Ezekiel's not John's temple needed to have a physical existence in order to be measured.

Steve

 

[DaChaser1]

I do not believe that we shall ever see Ezekiel's temple in existence. You have missed my point. I was saying that neither the Ezekiel's not John's temple needed to have a physical existence in order to be measured.

Steve

Depends if you spiritualise the passage, or take it in the plain and literal meaning intended for the text!

 

[DaChaser1]

:applause: Willis..I thought when i moved away from dispy..I thought I was amill also:laugh: But then i found out some of the teaching that I was reading was post-mill which i used to think was just wrong....I am taking another look. Ladd and spurgeon were historic premills....
at this point i am an endtime MUTT:laugh:

Exactly Willis!!!!

what keeps me from NOT being a Dispy is the truth so evident in the Bible that jesus is NOT yet ruling over this earth as spoken of in the scriptures, as he must rule/reign upon the earth, and muststill bring fulness of the Kingdom unto earth in order to have this world no longer under the world system of satan!

 

[Iconoclast]

what keeps me from NOT being a Dispy is the truth so evident in the Bible that jesus is NOT yet ruling over this earth as spoken of in the scriptures, as he must rule/reign upon the earth, and muststill bring fulness of the Kingdom unto earth in order to have this world no longer under the world system of satan!

that jesus is NOT yet ruling over this earth

He rules over His enemies right now. 1 cor 15

What verse or verses say that His rule is from earth....and not from heaven???

muststill bring fulness of the Kingdom unto earth in order to have this world no longer under the world system of satan

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.


JF...earlier on this thread I asked ACF to consider and respond to these verses.....I now ask you the same thing ...about Joel 2, Joel 3, Hebrews 12 wnat do you make of this????

for example; consider this ACF;

Quote:
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29For our God is a consuming fire.

ACF......think of it this way....the second generation of christians is being saved.They have never seen Jesus as the Apostles ,and the 500 eyewitnesses did. they are going to be persecuted unto death .
What could ,or what does God do to comfort them???
he gives John a supernatural vision, a glimpse into heaven to be able to tell them and us exactly ....
Where is Jesus now? What is he doing? Is he still in control?
Is he coming back?

I now see revelation and Hebrews given to answer this question !2

You see he clearly tells them...he has spoken on earth Hebrews 1:1-3...but now refuse not Him who speaks from Heaven...[through the Apostolic word}3
Since studying Hebrews and revelation this way....and understanding at least this much...I currently as time permits...comb through the OT prophets looking to see what is being fulfilled in our day.

ACF.....let me know if you find this an interesting and plausible understanding,and if you can build on it for me i would be greatful.

i am a bit rusty but I can still teach the premill teaching, and I do not shut the radio off if John Macarthur comes On...he is excellent....


In light of this...let me offer an example of what I mean...this passage in Joel sounds like the activity in revelation 14-18 the sickle, a harvest, and then the Lord roars out of Zion and Jerusalem like the Hebrews passage speaks of. Joel two is quoted in acts 2:16-21....then comes Joel 3....

Peter says this is THAT.....he does not say...this is like that..He says this is THAT....no double fulfillment necessary....Do you see what I am saying?

Even if you have not looked at it this way before....re-read Hebrews 10-12,revelation 6-19...together....with this idea in mind.....let me know;
here is a link for an early date possibility;
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...ID=12180421449

 

[asterisktom]

I do not believe that we shall ever see Ezekiel's temple in existence. You have missed my point. I was saying that neither the Ezekiel's not John's temple needed to have a physical existence in order to be measured.

Steve

Well, I am glad that I was wrong about you on this point, and that I was the one mistaken. We both believe that Ezekiel Temple will never be, nor never was, built. Good.

But your application of this to not valid. The passage in Revelation that says for John to measure the Temple clearly assumes that there is a Temple. Added to this is John's Gospel (which futurists likewise date well after the destruction of Jerusalem) which has a reference (John 5, I think) to a pool as if it was still standing, using present tense.

I stand by my contention. It fits best with both the texts and history.

 

[Darrell C]

This temple will never be in existence. Or are we to believe that there will once again be circumcision (Ezek. 44:7, 9) and sacrifices for sin?

You mean circumcision does not happen anymore? Even among Gentiles?

Why would we assume it ridiculous to think of National Israel (Restored) could not again sacrifice in memorial, even as we partake of Communion in memorial?

Does scripture teach that Jews are to forsake their heritage?

Consider:


Acts 21

King James Version (KJV)


20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.



Acts 18:18

King James Version (KJV)


18And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.




And one more for consideration:




Acts 16

King James Version (KJV)


Acts 16

1Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:

2Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.

3Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.



Now, if Paul could circumcise, and offer sacrifice in the first century...why would it be thought strange that this could happen in the Millennial Kingdom?

God bless.

 

[asterisktom]

You mean circumcision does not happen anymore? Even among Gentiles?

Why would we assume it ridiculous to think of National Israel (Restored) could not again sacrifice in memorial, even as we partake of Communion in memorial?

Does scripture teach that Jews are to forsake their heritage?

The heritage of The Jews is Christ. Their forsaking Christ - those that did - leaves them without the Foundation for all other blessings.

The fact that circumcision happens is beside the point as well as beside the scope of the texts under consideration.

"Ridiculous" is not a word I used, nor would use. "Tragic" is more like it.

In Scripture there is no national Israel, nor memorial rites, to come. On the contrary we have explicit statements (John 4 and elsewhere) that places and rites no longer are important. God is Spirit. We worship in Spirit and in truth. The circumcision of believers (Paul wrote this to both Jews an gentiles) is of the heart. According to Gal. circumcision is not only of no use, but is contrary to the spirit of grace of this age to come,the Gospel age.

Sorry, this is all I have time for right now. Hopefully I can answer more from your post later.

take care.

 

[Darrell C]

The heritage of The Jews is Christ. Their forsaking Christ - those that did - leaves them without the Foundation for all other blessings.

The fact that circumcision happens is beside the point as well as beside the scope of the texts under consideration.

"Ridiculous" is not a word I used, nor would use. "Tragic" is more like it.

In Scripture there is no national Israel, nor memorial rites, to come. On the contrary we have explicit statements (John 4 and elsewhere) that places and rites no longer are important. God is Spirit. We worship in Spirit and in truth. The circumcision of believers (Paul wrote this to both Jews an gentiles) is of the heart. According to Gal. circumcision is not only of no use, but is contrary to the spirit of grace of this age to come,the Gospel age.

Sorry, this is all I have time for right now. Hopefully I can answer more from your post later.

take care.

Look forward to it.

God bless.

 

[DaChaser1]

The heritage of The Jews is Christ. Their forsaking Christ - those that did - leaves them without the Foundation for all other blessings.

The fact that circumcision happens is beside the point as well as beside the scope of the texts under consideration.

"Ridiculous" is not a word I used, nor would use. "Tragic" is more like it.

In Scripture there is no national Israel, nor memorial rites, to come. On the contrary we have explicit statements (John 4 and elsewhere) that places and rites no longer are important. God is Spirit. We worship in Spirit and in truth. The circumcision of believers (Paul wrote this to both Jews an gentiles) is of the heart. According to Gal. circumcision is not only of no use, but is contrary to the spirit of grace of this age to come,the Gospel age.

Sorry, this is all I have time for right now. Hopefully I can answer more from your post later.

take care.

God kept a faithful remnant unto Himself in NT times, Jews that were"Of isreal"

God swore eternal Covenant between them and Himself....

 

[DaChaser1]

He rules over His enemies right now. 1 cor 15

What verse or verses say that His rule is from earth....and not from heaven???



15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.


JF...earlier on this thread I asked ACF to consider and respond to these verses.....I now ask you the same thing ...about Joel 2, Joel 3, Hebrews 12 wnat do you make of this????

So you would see Ezekiel 37/isaiah 66/Malachi 4 already fulfilled?