The great deceiver

[Winman]

Carico, you do not understand the scriptures. The Lord will allow Satan to deceive people who do not want to know the truth.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

A very clear example of this is wicked king Ahab in 1 Kings 22. He wanted to go to war against Syria and asked king Jehoshaphat to join with him. King Jehoshaphat asked that they might inquire of the Lord through a prophet to see if the Lord would be with them.

1 Kings 22:4 And he said unto Jehoshaphat, Wilt thou go with me to battle to Ramothgilead? And Jehoshaphat said to the king of Israel, I am as thou art, my people as thy people, my horses as thy horses.
5 And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Inquire, I pray thee, at the word of the LORD to day.
6 Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall I go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king.

These 400 prophets that Ahab gathered together were false prophets who always told king Ahab what he wanted to hear. King Jehoshaphat must have suspected this, because he asked if another prophet might be found.

7 And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might inquire of him?

Now here is the important part. There was another prophet named Micaiah, a true and good prophet of God, but Ahab hated him. That is very important to see. Ahab did not like the true word of God.

8 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may inquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.

And because Ahab did not like the true word of God, God sent a lying spirit to deceive him.

20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

The amazing thing is that when Micaiah told Ahab the Lord had allowed his false prophets to lie to him and tell him what he wanted to hear, and that he would be defeated in battle, Ahab still went to the battle, was wounded and died.

34 And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.
35 And the battle increased that day: and the king was stayed up in his chariot against the Syrians, and died at even: and the blood ran out of the wound into the midst of the chariot.

So, God will allow evil men who do not want to hear the truth to be deceived.

 

[Carico]

The Lord will allow Satan to deceive people who do not want to know the truth.

Wrong again. Paul didn't ask for the truth and neither did Jeremiah, Peter, or any of the disciples that God chose. "You did not choose me, I chose you." God chose Israel to be his chosen. And he chose Israel before the creation of the world. Read Romans 9:6-9 and Galatians 3:29 to see who the real Israel is.

But non-Calvinists don't like a sovereign God. They want to be soverieign because they want MAN to make the choices of the universe. :laugh: I can see now more than ever why God bound all men over to disobedience because man sure does need humbling!

But God says, NO. I am sovereign. I determine who enters my kingdom. I harden whom I WANT to harden. Jesus also tells us that in MT. 11:25-27. Also read the parable of the worker in MT. 20 to see that the boss is the one who determines how he wants to run his business, not the employees.

So I have no more desire to listen to any more posts exalting man rather than exalting God. It's not only unbiblical, it's blasphemy. good day.

 

[Frogman]

There is an historic Baptist group that agrees with Cairco. That is absolute predestination of all things. I find agreement with him except in that God predestinated sin.

I think he has presented a proof text that he beliefs to teach that God causes sin, but he is forgetting that God can and will do nothing against His nature and attributes.

Sin, comes clearly from the created being not the eternal.

God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

The evil that Isaiah speaks of is anything that we receive as "bad". I am laid off, this is bad, and I may view it as evil, but it is not evil.

The Chastisement of God upon us may likewise be viewed by ourselves as evil, but it is not.

The selling of Joseph into slavery in Egypt was bad, but God is clear that HE meant it for Good, and man then is at fault for the evil or bad that comes from it.

The questioning of another's salvation needs to be checked Cairco, do not question another person's salvation.

You cannot and do not have authority to circumcise any in heart; until you or I have the ability to remove the stony heart and replace it with the fleshy heart, please do not question any who have acknowledged the Son for the Scripture clearly teaches us those "hath" the Father (this is in a past tense sense) so any who acknowledges the Son already HAS the Father.

Whether they agree with you, me or neither, we cannot tell their heart only the fruit they bear.

May God Bless,
bro. Dallas Eaton, II Moderator

 

[Winman]

So I have no more desire to listen to any more posts exalting man rather than exalting God. It's not only unbiblical, it's blasphemy. good day.

You display the same reaction as the Jews in Acts chapter 7 when Stephen preached to them.

Remember, the Jews crucified Jesus because they declared him a blasphemer.

Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Whether they agree with you, me or neither, we cannot tell their heart only the fruit they bear.

Sadly, the "fruit" we see from Bro Carico is not a spirit of Christlikeness toward those with whom we disagree.

He has been warned. I'm assuming he is a "young turk" (from the "mid-wet") with a lot more zeal than knowledge. And remember, I am fully reformed in the doctrines of grace and sovereignty of God, so would agree generally with his stance.

 

[donnA]

I just quoted what scriptures says. That's from God. And I also told you that God himself cannot commit sin nor entice people to sin. He lets Satan do that as he did with Job. So read the bible if you want to know who God is instead of making up a god of your imagination.

No, you did not JUST quote scripture, you interpeted and did so incorrectly.

 

[donnA]

I'm just quoting scripture. I'm sorry that God's words are disturbing to your spirit. But maybe they should be. "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

again, you are not JUST quoting scripture, you are interpeting it and incorrectly taking it out of context to get ti to mean what you want.

 

[Carico]

Sadly, the "fruit" we see from Bro Carico is not a spirit of Christlikeness toward those with whom we disagree.

He has been warned. I'm assuming he is a "young turk" (from the "mid-wet") with a lot more zeal than knowledge. And remember, I am fully reformed in the doctrines of grace and sovereignty of God, so would agree generally with his stance.

Okay. Then in the next posts I'll simply quote scripture so you can no longer blame me for what they say. If you don't like them, then you don't like what God has to say. And since most people have a "hippie guru" idea of who God is, I'll quote verses that dispel that image.

 

[Carico]

DT. 28:48, "He will put an iron yolk around your neck until he has destroyed you."

DT. 28:61, "The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in the Book of the law, until you are destroyed."

Dt. 28:65, "The Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary of longing, and a despairing heart."

Lamentations 3:38, "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"

Psalm 37:13, "But the Lord laughs at the wicked because he knows their day is coming."

 

[Carico]

again, you are not JUST quoting scripture, you are interpeting it and incorrectly taking it out of context to get ti to mean what you want.

Where did I interpret it? I was asked if God is in control of the hearts and minds of people and I showed the verses that says he is. Again, if you don't like them, you can't blame me for them. So again, I'll just quote them as I did before. Romans 9:18 says; "Therefore, God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden." Those are not my words.

 

[DHK]

DT. 28:48, "He will put an iron yolk around your neck until he has destroyed you."

DT. 28:61, "The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in the Book of the law, until you are destroyed."

Dt. 28:65, "The Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary of longing, and a despairing heart."

Lamentations 3:38, "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"

Psalm 37:13, "But the Lord laughs at the wicked because he knows their day is coming."

Every verse has its context. You do not refer to context. That is convenient isn't it?

A good example is:
Psalm 14:1..."There is no God."
Does the Bible also prove atheism? I too can use the Bible as you do.

 

[Frogman]

I tried to post a similar reply, but it didn't take. I agree, the essentials of Biblical interpretation is:

1. Context
2. Context
3. Context

There is a good way to remember this, first when looking at any particular passage:

1. What is the general context, book, chapter and other chapters in general, how does this fit in the overall picture
2. What is the meaning of the passage specifically, who is the audience, the purpose for writing, etc.
3. Then any extended applications may be built, but this last must not violate context.

bro. Dallas

 

[Winman]

DT. 28:48, "He will put an iron yolk around your neck until he has destroyed you."

DT. 28:61, "The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in the Book of the law, until you are destroyed."

Dt. 28:65, "The Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary of longing, and a despairing heart."

Lamentations 3:38, "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"

Psalm 37:13, "But the Lord laughs at the wicked because he knows their day is coming."

Carico, what you failed to show is that God gave reasons for both blessing and cursing the Israelites. Look at these verses.

Deut 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

You notice the Lord said "if"? That is because a man can choose to obey or disobey. God does not control men, he gives men free will to obey or not. If man chooses to obey, God promises to bless him. If man chooses to disobey, God promises to curse him.

Deut 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Your position is non-sensical. If God controls man's every move, it would be unnecessary for God to tell man anything. We would simply do what he wills us to do. And for God to curse a man for sin when it is God's will for him to sin (according to what you believe) would be unjust.

You need to quit pulling verses from context to try and prove your pre-conceived beliefs. Read the scriptures for what they say.

 

[Frogman]

Balance in All Things

Dear Winman,
You have spoken truth, but not fully. Man unregenerate does not possess a free will, but the regenerate man is made free by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise he/she is at enmity against God.

I agree with your post for the most part, but thought the balance should be stated. A person unregenerate is lost and dead in sins and unable to choose any good unto righteousness. A person with the Indwelling Presence of the Holy Spirit, having been quickened again unto life eternal does possess a will freed from that previous bondage.

May God Richly Bless,
bro. Dallas Eaton, II
A Hand to the Plough in Glasgow, KY.:wavey:

 

[Winman]

Dear Winman,
You have spoken truth, but not fully. Man unregenerate does not possess a free will, but the regenerate man is made free by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise he/she is at enmity against God.

I agree with your post for the most part, but thought the balance should be stated. A person unregenerate is lost and dead in sins and unable to choose any good unto righteousness. A person with the Indwelling Presence of the Holy Spirit, having been quickened again unto life eternal does possess a will freed from that previous bondage.

May God Richly Bless,
bro. Dallas Eaton, II
A Hand to the Plough in Glasgow, KY.:wavey:

If unregenerate man does not have free will, then it makes absolutely no sense for God to warn him of the curses. If God does not give unregenerate men the ability to choose between right and wrong, then God is the root and author of sin.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

This verse makes no sense if your position is true. If your position is true, the unregenerate cannot make this choice, he is incapable. And if your position is true that only the regenerate have free will, then this verse would be saying they could choose death. Therefore they would not have eternal life, they could lose their salvation.

But if all men have free will, then this verse makes perfect sense.

 

[Frogman]

Dear Brother,
Don't fall for the pulling a passage out of context. That passage is speaking to a REDEEMED PEOPLE WHO ARE UNDER THE PASSOVER BLOOD and NOW ARE BROUGHT out with a STRONG ARM from the BONDAGE of Egypt (sin).

Yeah, that passage makes perfect sense in the way I have discussed pre-regenerated man's will as opposed to post-regenerated man's will.

May God Bless,
bro. Dallas Eaton, II

 

[Frogman]

If unregenerate man does not have free will, then it makes absolutely no sense for God to warn him of the curses. If God does not give unregenerate men the ability to choose between right and wrong, then God is the root and author of sin.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

This verse makes no sense if your position is true. If your position is true, the unregenerate cannot make this choice, he is incapable. And if your position is true that only the regenerate have free will, then this verse would be saying they could choose death. Therefore they would not have eternal life, they could lose their salvation.

But if all men have free will, then this verse makes perfect sense.

Now, briefly, I want to deal with the concept of their ability to loose eternal life. Remember, Jesus? He said that He came that they might have life and have it more abundantly. What is this? There are several aspects of life and even of salvation dear brother. First there is physical life, then if we are quickened by the Holy Spirit, there is Spiritual life; but the physical life remains. The greater blessing upon those who Possess Spiritual LIFE is that they CHOOSE LIFE (this is by obedience) and that is seen true throughout Scripture, note Ps. 1 for Starters, Blessed is the man, (what makes him blessed?)

Now, NONE, not even those dead in sin who are in their right mind desire everlasting punishment, so none would choose that if they knew they were doing so, but there are some who do so choose that simply because their works are of the darkness and if they come to the light those works will be manifest; now, that aside, their lifestyles show them perpetually at enmity against God. There are others who are quickened and unable to come to the full profession of that faith for such a profession would force upon them a position in their society that you and I can not imagine.

But, NO conditional statement of choice of LIFE eternal is GIVEN to any person; nowhere in Scripture. All Conditional Statements found in Scripture are given to a particular type of person.

Please consider the context of what you have posted as it is definitely speaking to a redeemed people and not giving them an opportunity to choose spiritual death out of which they had been delivered, remember Hebrews 11 in your meditations, they are no longer mindful of that country from which they have been brought, but look for a city whose builder and maker is God.

Bro. Dallas Eaton, II
A Hand to the Plough in
Glasgow, KY.

 

[pinoybaptist]

If unregenerate man does not have free will, then it makes absolutely no sense for God to warn him of the curses. If God does not give unregenerate men the ability to choose between right and wrong, then God is the root and author of sin.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Everytime I read your posts, winman, I am reminded of the errors in pop religion.
First, Jesus did not come to warn mankind of hell.
He came to tell and reveal to His disciples and to His elect what He, their Savior and their Redeemer, and their God, was saving them from, and what awaits those whom the Father had left to their sins, in other words, those who have no Redeemer.
God and His Christ are not in the business of scaring anyone into salvation. He is, or was, in the business of saving His people (Matthew 1:21).
I speak in the past tense, because Jesus Christ successfully did what He was sent to do.
Redeem His people.


Second, Deuteronomy 30:19 was addressed to those who represent His true Israel, national or earthly Israel. The admonition is to them, not to mankind. If this admonition were to mankind, the Holy Spirit will plainly say so. Yet, Romans 15:4 plainly says "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope".

In other words, the Bible was not written for the benefit and learning of unregenerate mankind, but for the benefit and learning of regenerate believers
or those who come under gospel instruction.

And Paul reiterates this in 1 Corinthians 10:11 when, describing the hardheadedness and rebellious, disobedient spirits of some within national Israel, and the chastisement they received from Jehovah God, he says:

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Popular religion and pop preaching and pop teaching scares people into salvation, which is not and never is the intent of Scripture, and that is not to say salvation is an unfinished, undone, event.

I am sorry to see in many of your posts that you do not believe in Christ as a successful Savior and His work alone as the only work ever necessary for eternal salvation.

 

[Marcia]

I'm just quoting scripture. I'm sorry that God's words are disturbing to your spirit. But maybe they should be. "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

And yet much of the NT is warning believers not to be deceived and fall for false teachings.

And however man is deceived, he is still accountable to God.

Moreover, Romans 1 tells us that God makes truth evident to men and man "suppresses the truth."

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

 

[Winman]

Everytime I read your posts, winman, I am reminded of the errors in pop religion.
First, Jesus did not come to warn mankind of hell.

He didn't?

Matt 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

This is but a few of many verses Jesus spoke of Hell.