. The deity of Christ is taught by Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 if properly translated according to the Granville Sharpe grammatical rule. Other verses also support the deity of Christ. Thus only one is allowed by Greek grammar, if properly understood. To claim I do not understand is to claim Dr. Dan Wallace does not understand, and that fiction is the claim of SBG
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The Great God and Saviour of us Jesus Christ
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
you are obsessed much with Wallace!!! Henry Alford was a scholar that makes Wallace like a boy when it comes to Greek grammar, and he is one of many who is on the other side of the argument! Titus 2 - Greek Testament Critical Exegetical Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
As I have said more than once, to those who can understand Greek grammar, that Titus 2:13 CAN refer from the grammar to, either as the KJV, or the NKJV, or the third reading I have given in the OP. This is FACT, and not swayed by theology!
Cannot be done as the Kjv did though and be true to the intended text!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
what cannot be done?
He did not convince them. But he voted with them. For the others it was a matter of textual criticism. Perhaps it was theological for vance, but I doubt he convinced anyone. They counted on his vote no doubt.
You want to rewrite Greek grammar to eliminate the Granville Shape rule, whereas I advocate proper grammatical translation.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Once again SBG posts a material false statement. I presented the view of Dr. Dan Wallace, who knows Greek. The claim I "pretend to know Greek" when I posted that I know next to nothing of Greek is poor behavior on your part.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Now after posting insulting slander about me, SBG links to his slander of Dr. Dan Wallace. Here is the fact, the KJV erred through ignorance of its translators when translating Titus 2:13, and SBG is attempting to deny this fact. Full Stop
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Van, you never cease to amaze me. You have your one guy, Dan Wallace whom you hold to for your support. He is WRONG on this as he is in other things that he says. If you knew Greek grammar yourself, we would probably not be having these conversations! The KJV and those Versions that read like it, refers to Two Persons, God the Father, Who is the Great God, and Jesus Christ, the Saviour. Are you suggesting that Wallace is a better Greek scholar than those who translated the KJV? These men were MUCH better scholars that Wallace is! So, it is NOT only me, but many others. Did you read the link I included earlier on the note by William Mounce?
Note SBG now uses the "my daddy is bigger than your daddy" argument.
Here is the fact, the KJV erred through ignorance of its translators when translating Titus 2:13, and SBG is attempting to deny this fact. Full Stop
And did you see the "one guy" marginalization effort. No mention of the NKJV translation team, the NASB translation team, the NIV translation team, and so forth so on.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Note SBG now uses the "my daddy is bigger than your daddy" argument.
Here is the fact, the KJV erred through ignorance of its translators when translating Titus 2:13, and SBG is attempting to deny this fact. Full Stop
And did you see the "one guy" marginalization effort. No mention of the NKJV translation team, the NASB translation team, the NIV translation team, and so forth so on.
Dr James Moulton
"We cannot discuss here the problem of Tit 213 , for we must, as grammarians, leave the matter open" (A Grammar of New Testament Greek, vol.I, Prolegomena, p.84)
So, HOW can Wallace say that according to the Greek grammar, it must mean "one Person"?
My last reply to you on this, as it is talking to a dodo!
Here is the issue:
KJV = the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
NKJV = our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
And these are some of the translations that also employ the rule:
1) CSB, HCSB
2) CEB
3) CEV
4) DARBY
5) DLNT
6) ERV
7) EHV
8) ESV
9) LEB
10) NASB, NASB95
11) MOUNCE = our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
12) NET
13) NIV
14) RSV
15) WEB
16) YLT
KJV = the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
NKJV = our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
And these are some of the translations that also employ the rule:
1) CSB, HCSB
2) CEB
3) CEV
4) DARBY
5) DLNT
6) ERV
7) EHV
8) ESV
9) LEB
10) NASB, NASB95
11) MOUNCE = our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
12) NET
13) NIV
14) RSV
15) WEB
16) YLT
Should not translate it as they choose to do!
Beza's rule
Joseph Benson observed that Theodore Beza maintained “that one person only is spoken of, namely, Jesus Christ” (New Testament, II, p. 472). Granville Sharp noted that Beza “insists, however, that these two titles do not refer to two distinct persons, because the article is omitted before the second” (Remarks, p. 22).
In the 1599 edition of the Geneva Bible, this note is given for Titus 2:13: “Christ is here most plainly called that mighty God.“ Francis Turretin (1623-1687) as translated by George Giger wrote: “He is called ‘the great God’ (Tit. 2:13)--certainly not the Father, but the Son because only one article is prefixed to the words God and Saviour (which would not be the case if they were two persons)“ (Institutes, I, p. 284). In his 1657 English translation of the 1637 Dutch Annotations at this verse, Theodore Haak noted: “That is, of Jesus Christ, our great God and Saviour; for both these titles are here ascribed to Jesus Christ.” Concerning Titus 2:13 in the Westminster Annotations printed in 1645, this is stated: “To the confutation and confusion of all that deny the Deity of Christ, the Apostle here calleth him not only God, but the great God.” In a sermon printed in 1722, Edmund Calamy stated: “There being no article prefixed to Saviour, it follows, that the Great God, and the Saviour spoken of, must be the very same, even Jesus Christ, who is mentioned” (Thirteen Sermons, pp. 37-38).
Joseph Benson observed that Theodore Beza maintained “that one person only is spoken of, namely, Jesus Christ” (New Testament, II, p. 472). Granville Sharp noted that Beza “insists, however, that these two titles do not refer to two distinct persons, because the article is omitted before the second” (Remarks, p. 22).
In the 1599 edition of the Geneva Bible, this note is given for Titus 2:13: “Christ is here most plainly called that mighty God.“ Francis Turretin (1623-1687) as translated by George Giger wrote: “He is called ‘the great God’ (Tit. 2:13)--certainly not the Father, but the Son because only one article is prefixed to the words God and Saviour (which would not be the case if they were two persons)“ (Institutes, I, p. 284). In his 1657 English translation of the 1637 Dutch Annotations at this verse, Theodore Haak noted: “That is, of Jesus Christ, our great God and Saviour; for both these titles are here ascribed to Jesus Christ.” Concerning Titus 2:13 in the Westminster Annotations printed in 1645, this is stated: “To the confutation and confusion of all that deny the Deity of Christ, the Apostle here calleth him not only God, but the great God.” In a sermon printed in 1722, Edmund Calamy stated: “There being no article prefixed to Saviour, it follows, that the Great God, and the Saviour spoken of, must be the very same, even Jesus Christ, who is mentioned” (Thirteen Sermons, pp. 37-38).
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
I fully agree that Jesus Christ in Titus 2:13 is called "the Great God and Saviour", and not the Father as "the Great God", and Jesus as "the Saviour". However, the Greek grammar, does allow for both readings, the use or non use of the Greek article is not conclusive, as there are examples as I have shown, where this is not the case. In Matthew 17:1, we read, “τον πετρον και ιακωβον και ιωαννην”, where the Greek article is used once, though three distinct persons are meant, Peter, James and John. In Sharps "rule", these three are one and the same person! In Mark 9:2, it is clear: “τον πετρον και τον ιακωβον και τον ιωαννην”, = “Peter and James and John”, where it is clear, with the article used, that the “three” are “distinct” persons. Also, in Koine Greek, we have a couple of clear examples from Polycarp Martydom 22 (about 155 AD), “δόζα τώ θεώ καί πατρί καί άγίω πνεύματι…ω ή δόξα σύν τώ πατρί καϊ άγίω πνεύματι εις ούς αιώνας τών αιώνων, αμήν” = “Glory to God and Father and Holy Spirit… To him be the glory with the Father and Holy Spirit forever and ever. Amen". It matters not that this is not in the Bible, as the same grammatical rules apply! Again, in Sharps "rule", the Father and Holy Spirit would be one and the same Person!
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