The Great Tribulation

[Ray Berrian]

Chet,

I received your message. It is a happy day when God shows a person something new even though it has been received vicariously. It's great that we can be a part of that long train of saints who have already arrived home.

Ray

 

[LP]

We have all missed the Great Tribulation. It has already occurred and we are now past it. It's alright. None of us were even born when it happened.

Consider the following.

One of the most basic principles for an accurate understanding of the Bible's message is that Scripture interprets Scripture.

The Bible is God's holy, infallible, inerrant Word. It is our highest authority. This means that we cannot seek for an authoritative interpretation of Scripture's meaning anywhere outside of the Bible itself. It also means that we must not interpret the Bible as if it dropped out of the sky in the twentieth century. The New Testament was written in the first century, and so we must try to understand it in terms of its first-century readers.

For example, when John called Jesus "the Lamb of God," neither he nor his hearers had in mind anything remotely similar to what the average, modern man-on-the-street might think of if he heard someone called a "lamb." John did not mean Jesus was sweet, cuddly, nice, or cute. In fact, John wasn't referring to Jesus' personality at all. He meant that Jesus was the sinless Sacrifice for the world. How do we know this? Because the Bible tells us so.

This is the method we must use in solving every problem of interpretation in the Bible—including the prophetic passages. That is to say, when we read a chapter in Ezekiel, our first reaction must not be to scan the pages of the New York Times in a frantic search for clues to its meaning. The newspaper does not interpret Scripture, in any primary sense. The newspaper should not decide for us when certain prophetic events are to be fulfilled. Scripture interprets Scripture.

This Generation

In Matthew 24 (and Mark 13 and Luke 21) Jesus spoke to His disciples about a "great tribulation" which would come upon Jerusalem. It has become fashionable over the past 100 years or so to teach that He was speaking about the end of the "Church Age" and the time of His Second Coming. But is this what He meant? We should note carefully that Jesus Himself
gave the (approximate) date of the coming Tribulation, leaving no room for doubt after any careful examination of the Biblical text. He said:

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place (Matt. 24:34).

This means that everything Jesus spoke of in this passage, at least up to verse 34, took place before the generation then living passed away.

"Wait a minute," you say. "Everything? The witnessing to all nations, the Tribulation, the coming of Christ on the clouds, the stars falling…everything?"

Yes—and, incidentally, this point is a very good test of your commitment to the principle we began with in this chapter. Scripture interprets Scripture, I said; and you nodded your head and yawned, thinking: "Sure, I know all that. Get to the point. Where do the atomic blasts and Killer Bees come in?"

The Lord Jesus declared that "this generation"—people then living—would not pass away before the things He prophesied took place. The question is, do you believe Him?

Some have sought to get around the force of this text by saying that the word generation here really means race, and that Jesus was simply saying that the Jewish race would not die out until all these things took place.

Is that true? I challenge you: Get out your concordance and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation (in Greek, genea) and see if it ever means "race" in any other context. Here are all the references for the Gospels: Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 16:8; 17:25; 21:32.

Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race over thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to contemporaries. (In fact, those who say it means
"race" tend to acknowledge this fact, but explain that the word suddenly changes its meaning when Jesus uses it in Matthew 24! We can smile at such a transparent error, but we should also remember that this is very serious. We are dealing with the Word of the living God.)

The conclusion, therefore—before we even begin to investigate the passage as a whole—is that the events prophesied in Matthew 24 took place within the lifetime of the generation which was then living. It was this generation which Jesus called "wicked and perverse" (Matt. 12:39, 45; 16:4; 17:17); it was this "terminal generation" which crucified the Lord; and it was this generation, Jesus said, upon which would come the punishment for "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Matt. 23:35).

All These Things

"Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!" (Matt. 23:36-38).

Jesus' statement in Matthew 23 sets the stage for His teaching in Matthew 24. Jesus clearly told of an imminent judgment on Israel for rejecting the Word of God, and for the final apostasy of rejecting God's Son. The disciples were so upset by His prophecy of doom upon the present generation and the "desolation" of the Jewish "house" (the Temple) that, when they were
alone with Him, they could not help but ask for an explanation.

"And Jesus came out of the Temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the Temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, 'Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down.' And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?'" (Matt. 24:1-3).

Again, we must take careful note that Jesus was not speaking of something that would happen thousands of years later, to some future temple. He was prophesying about "all these things," saying that "not one stone here shall be left upon another." This becomes even clearer if we consult the parallel passages:

"And as He was going out of the Temple, one of His disciples said to Him, 'Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!' And Jesus said to him, 'Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another which will not be torn down'" (Mark 13:1-2).

"And while some were talking about the Temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said, 'As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down" (Luke 21:5-6).

The only possible interpretation of Jesus' words which He Himself allows, therefore, is that He was speaking of the destruction of the Temple which then stood in Jerusalem, the very buildings which the disciples beheld at that moment in history. The Temple of which Jesus spoke was destroyed in the fall of Jerusalem to the Roman armies in A.D. 70. This is the only possible interpretation of Jesus' prophecy in this chapter. The Great Tribulation ended with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70.

(Quote is from Paradise Restored by David Chilton).

 

[HankD]

<<And while some were talking about the Temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said, 'As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down" Luke 21:5-6. >>

<<The only possible interpretation of Jesus' words which He Himself allows, therefore, is that He was speaking of the destruction of the Temple which then stood in Jerusalem, the very buildings which the disciples beheld at that moment in history. The Temple of which Jesus spoke was destroyed in the fall of Jerusalem to the Roman armies in A.D. 70. This is the only possible interpretation of Jesus' prophecy in this chapter. The Great Tribulation ended with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70.>>

Then you may have a problem since the Wailing Wall is claimed to be the Western Wall of Solomon's Temple. Now since the Wailing Wall still stands the prophecy "there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down" has not yet been fulfilled.

http://www.olivebranch.com/isreal/jesurwall.htm



HankD

 

[LP]

The operative word there is claimed to be. "Is" does not flow from "claimed." "Might be" is the best that one can say. Irrespective, that is irrelvent: the temple in question and over which Jesus was speaking was Herod's temple, not Solomon's, since it was not then standing at the time and had already been destroyed.

That is why we need to go not to the claimes of men but the infallible word of God. And if a truth is in Scripture that is important, it will be backed up in other ways. This is the case with the abover interpretation of the Great Tribulation. What follows will deal with "the last days." Do we live in the last days? Hardly. The last days was the period between Christ's birth and the destruction of Jerusalem. We are not in. They are past. Consider the following.

According to Jesus’ words in Matthew 24, one of the increasing characteristics of the age preceding the overthrow of Israel was to be apostasy within the Christian Church. This was mentioned earlier, but a more concentrated study at this point will shed much light on a number of related issues in the New Testament – issues which have often been misunderstood.

We generally think of the apostolic period as a time of tremendously explosive evangelism and church growth, a "golden age" when astounding miracles took place every day. This common image is substantially correct, but it is flawed by one glaring omission. We tend to neglect the fact that the early Church was the scene of the most dramatic outbreak of heresy in world
history.

The Great Apostasy

The Church began to be infiltrated by heresy fairly early in its development. Acts 15 records the meeting of the first Church Council, which was convened in order to render an authoritative ruling on the issue of justification by faith (some teachers had been advocating the false doctrine that one must keep the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament in order to be justified). The problem did not die down, however; years later, Paul had to deal with it again, in his letter to the churches of Galatia. As Paul told them, this doctrinal aberration was no minor matter, but affected their very salvation: it was a "different gospel," an utter distortion of the truth, and amounted to a repudiation of Jesus Christ Himself. Using some of the most severe terminology of his career, Paul pronounced damnation upon the "false brethren" who taught the heresy (see Gal. 1:6-9; 2:5, 11-21; 3:1-3; 5:1-12).

Paul also foresaw that heresy would infect the churches of Asia Minor. Calling together the elders of Ephesus, he exhorted them to "be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock," because "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them" (Acts 20:28-30). Just as Paul predicted, false doctrine became an issue of enormous proportions in these churches. By the time the Book of Revelation was written, some of them had become almost completely ruined through the progress of heretical teachings and the resulting apostasy (Rev. 2:2, 6, 14-16, 20-24; 3:1-4, 15-18).

But the problem of heresy was not limited to any geographical or cultural area. It was widespread, and became an increasing subject of apostolic counsel and pastoral oversight as the age progressed. Some heretics taught that the final Resurrection had already taken place (2nd Tim. 2:18), while others claimed that resurrection was impossible (1st Cor. 15:12); some taught strange doctrines of asceticism and angel-worship (Col. 2:8, 18-23; 1 Tim. 4:1-3), while others advocated all kinds of immorality and rebellion in the name of "liberty" (2 Pet. 2:1-3, 10-22; Jude 4, 8, 10-13, 16). Again and again the apostles found themselves issuing stern warnings against tolerating false teachers and "false apostles" (Rom. 16:17-18; 2nd Cor. 11:3-4, 12-15; Phil. 3:18-19; 1st Tim. 1:3-7; 2nd Tim. 4:2-5), for these had been the cause of massive departures from the faith, and the extent of apostasy was increasing as the era progressed (1st Tim. 1:19-20; 6:20-21; 2nd Tim. 2:16-18; 3:1-9, 13; 4:10, 14-16).... The Christian church of the first generation was not only characterized by faith and miracles; it was also characterized by increasing lawlessness, rebellion, and heresy from within the Christian community itself – just as Jesus had foretold in Matthew 24.

The Antichrist

The Christians had a specific term for this apostasy. They called it antichrist. Many popular writers have speculated about this term, usually failing to regard its usage in Scripture. In the first place, consider a fact which will undoubtedly shock some people: the word "antichrist" never occurs in the Book of Revelation. Not once. Yet the term is routinely used by Christian
teachers as a synonym for "the Beast" of Revelation 13. Obviously, there is no question that the Beast is an enemy of Christ, and is thus "anti" Christ in that sense; my point, however, is that the term antichrist is used in a very specific sense, and is essentially unrelated to the figure known as "the Beast" and "666."

A further error teaches that "the Antichrist" is a specific individual; connected to this is the notion that "he" is someone who will make his appearance toward the end of the world. Both of these ideas, like the first, are contradicted by the New Testament.

In fact, the only occurrences of the term antichrist are in the following verses from the letters of the Apostle John:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it may be shown that they all are not of us . . . . Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. . . . These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. (1 John 2:18-19, 22-23, 26).

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error (1st John 4:1-6).

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, that we might not lose what we have accomplished, but that we may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds (2nd John 7-11).

The texts quoted above comprise all the Bible passages that mention the word antichrist, and from them we can draw several important conclusions:

First, the Christians had already been warned about the coming of antichrist (1st John 2:18; 4:3).

Second, there was not just one, but "many antichrists" (1st John 2:18). The term antichrist, therefore, cannot be simply a designation of one individual.

Third, antichrist was already working as John wrote: "even now many antichrists have arisen" (1st John 2:18); "I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you" (1st John 2:26); "you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world" (1st John 4:3); "many deceivers have gone out into the world. . . . This is the deceiver and the antichrist" (2nd John 7). Obviously, if the antichrist was already present in the first century, he was not some figure who would arise at the end of the world.

Fourth, antichrist was a system of unbelief, particularly the heresy of denying the person and work of Jesus Christ. Although the antichrists apparently claimed to belong to the Father, they taught that Jesus was not the Christ (1st John 2:22); in union with the false prophets (1st John 4:1), they denied the Incarnation (1st John 4:3; 2nd John 7, 9); and they rejected apostolic doctrine (1st John 4:6).

Fifth, the antichrists had been members of the Christian Church, but had apostatized (1st John 2:19). Now these apostates were attempting to deceive other Christians, in order to sway the Church as a whole away from Jesus Christ (1st John 2:26; 4:1; 2nd John 7, 10).

Putting all this together, we can see that antichrist is a description of both the system of apostasy and individual apostates. In other words, antichrist was the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy that a time of great apostasy would come, when "many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many" (Matt. 24:10-11). As John said, the Christians had been warned of the coming of antichrist; and, sure enough, "many antichrists" had arisen. For a time, they had believed the gospel; later they had forsaken the faith, and then went about trying to deceive others, either starting new cults or, more likely, seeking to draw Christians into Judaism – the false religion which claimed to worship the Father while denying the Son. When the doctrine of antichrist is understood, it fits in perfectly with what the rest of the New Testament tells us about the age of the "terminal generation."

. . . .

Returning to John’s statements about the spirit of antichrist, we should note that he stresses one further, very significant point: as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24, the coming of antichrist is a sign of "the End": "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour" (1st John 2:18). The connection people often make between the antichrist and "the last days" is correct enough; but what is often missed is the fact that the expression the last days, and similar terms, are used in the Bible to refer, not to the end of the physical world, but
to the last days of the nation of Israel, the "last days" which ended with the destruction of the Temple in A .D. 70. This, too, will come to many as a surprise; but we must accept the clear teaching of Scripture. The New Testament authors unquestionably used "end-times" language when speaking of the period they were living in, before the fall of Jerusalem. As we
have seen, the Apostle John said two things on this point: first, that antichrist had already come; and, second, that the presence of the antichrist was proof that he and his readers were living in "the last hour."

In one of his earlier letters, Paul had had to correct a mistaken impression regarding the coming judgment on Israel. False teachers had been frightening the believers by saying that the day of judgment was already upon them. Paul reminded the Christians of what he had explained before:

Let no one deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first . . . (2nd Thess. 2:3).

By the end of the age, however, as John was writing his letters, the Great Apostasy –the spirit of antichrist, of which the Lord had foretold – was a reality.

Jude, who wrote one of the very last New Testament books, leaves us in no doubt about this issue. Issuing strong condemnations of the heretics who had invaded the church and were at- tempting to draw Christians away from the orthodox faith (Jude 1-16), he reminds his readers that they had been warned of this very thing:

But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, "In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts." These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (Jude 17-19).

Jude clearly regards the warnings about the "mockers" as referring to the heretics of his own day — meaning that his own day was the period of "the last time." Like John, he knew that the rapid multiplying of these false brethren was a sign of the End. Antichrist had arrived, and it was now the Last Hour.</font>[/QUOTE]Quotes excerpted from Paradise Restored by David Chilton.

[ March 01, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

[LP]

MORE:

The Last Days

....The period spoken of in the Bible as "the last days" (or "last times" or "last hour") is the period between Christ's birth and the destruction of Jerusalem. The early church was living at the end of the old age and the beginning of the new. This whole period must be considered as the time of Christ's First Advent. In both the Old and New Testament, the promised destruction of Jerusalem is considered to be an aspect of the work of Christ, intimately
connected to His work of redemption. His life, death, resurrection, ascension, outpouring of the Spirit, and judgment on Jerusalem are all parts of His one work of bringing in His Kingdom and creating His new Temple (see, for example, how Daniel 9:24-27 connects the atonement with the destruction of the Temple).

Let's consider how the Bible itself uses these expressions about the end of the age. In 1st Timothy 4:1-3, Paul warned:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Was Paul talking about "latter times" which would happen thousands of years later? Why should he warn Timothy of events which Timothy, and Timothy's great-great-grandchildren, and fifty or more generations of descendants, would never live to see? In fact, Paul tells Timothy, "If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ" (1st Tim. 4:6). The members of Timothy's congregation needed to know about what would take place in the "latter days," because they would be personally affected by those events. In particular, they needed the assurance that the coming apostasy was part
of the overall pattern of events leading up to the end of the old order and the full establishing of Christ's Kingdom. As we can see from passages such as Colossians 2:18-23, the "doctrines of demons" Paul warned of were current during the first century. The "latter times" were already taking place. This is quite clear in Paul's later statement to Timothy:

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come; for men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as James and Jambres resisted Moses, so also do these resist the truth; men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith (2nd Tim. 3:1-8).

The very things Paul said would happen in "the last days" were happening as he wrote, and he was simply warning Timothy about what to expect as the age wore on to its climax. Antichrist was beginning to rear its head.

Other New Testament writers shared this perspective with Paul. The letter to the Hebrews begins by saying that God "has in these last days spoken to us in His Son" (Heb. 1:2); the writer goes on to show that "now once at the end of the ages He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 9:26). Peter wrote that Christ "was foreknown before the
foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for you who through Him are believers in God" (1st Pet. 1:20-21). Apostolic testimony is unmistakably clear: when Christ came, the "last days" arrived with Him. He came to bring in the new age of the Kingdom of God. The old age was winding down, and would be thoroughly abolished when God destroyed
the Temple.
</font>[/QUOTE]Quotes taken from Paradise Restored by David Chilton.

[ March 01, 2002, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

[Daniel David]

LP, preterism has its place in the same pit as all other false doctrine. What you are talking about is a prostitution of the Scripture to fit into a preconceived idea.

First, the phrase "this generation" does not always refer to the Jews in the days of Christ. Once that preterist pillar is removed, the whole theory falls down, hard.

Second, the tribulation is still future. Mt 24 and Lk 21 refer to future events.

Third, the angel told the disciples that Jesus would return in like manner. How did Jesus ascend? Personally, bodily, visibly. How will Jesus return? Personally, bodily, visibly. How does preterism say that Jesus came back? Invisibly, "in the clouds", non-bodily. Logically then preterism would have to say that Jesus ascended the same way. So we have an invisible, "in the clouds", non-bodily ascension. What does that do to the resurrection? It makes it synonymous to the heresy of the Jehovah's Witlesses. Good association.

Finally, preterism is just an excuse for Christians today to try to focus on cultural change instead of the changing of individuals.

I realize some of this might sound harsh, I am just tired of dealing with this theory. It is just plain heretical.

 

[LP]

LP, preterism has its place in the same pit as all other false doctrine. What you are talking about is a prostitution of the Scripture to fit into a preconceived idea.

Funny, that is exactly what I think of Dispenastionally based eshatology. That 100 year old or so thing.

First, the phrase "this generation" does not always refer to the Jews in the days of Christ. Once that preterist pillar is removed, the whole theory falls down, hard.

Site Scriptural basis. The above Scriptural basis cites EVERY use of the term in the gospels, with each one meaning the sum total of those living at the time.

Second, the tribulation is still future. Mt 24 and Lk 21 refer to future events.

Again, you argument has convinced me. What argument? How about taking the details of the above on this issue and countering it on its points.

Third, the angel told the disciples that Jesus would return in like manner. How did Jesus ascend? Personally, bodily, visibly. How will Jesus return? Personally, bodily, visibly. How does preterism say that Jesus came back? Invisibly, "in the clouds", non-bodily. Logically then preterism would have to say that Jesus ascended the same way. So we have an invisible, "in the clouds", non-bodily ascension. What does that do to the resurrection? It makes it synonymous to the heresy of the Jehovah's Witlesses. Good association.

You display only your ignorance of the position, at least as I hold it. Deal with this on its points http://www.freebooks.com/docs/html/dcpr/Chapter11.htm and not in sweeping genralizations.

Finally, preterism is just an excuse for Christians today to try to focus on cultural change instead of the changing of individuals.

Hardly. BOTH are dealt with in Scripture.

I realize some of this might sound harsh, I am just tired of dealing with this theory. It is just plain heretical.

Counter it's points. I think dispensational pre-millenialism is error ("Heretical" is too far since that is foremost an issue of Chistology).

[ March 01, 2002, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

[HankD]

&lt;&lt;the temple in question and over which Jesus was speaking was Herod's temple, not
Solomon's, since it was not then standing at the time and had already been destroyed.&gt;&gt;

Thank you for that observation LP , I suppose now some will say that the wailing wall is really part of Herod's Temple.

Anyway, as I said before I can't quite accept either position : preterist or pre-mill/pre-trib.
Each has difficulties.

Preterism doesn't answer to the global world-wide cataclysmic aspects of the Second Coming, on the other hand, I can't find sufficient scriptural support for a secret "rapture" of believers with airplanes falling out of the sky etc...

But thats me and I certainly won't impugn the faith of a believer with either view.

I guess I'm what one person has defined as a pan-millenialist: It will all pan out in the end.

HankD

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
LP, preterism has its place in the same pit as all other false doctrine. What you are talking about is a prostitution of the Scripture to fit into a preconceived idea.

There should be a distinction made between partial-preterism (orthodox and historical) and full-preterism (heterodox). The former believes much of NT prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, but the Second coming, general ressurection and final judgment are still future; the latter believes Christ already came in AD 70.

See A Brief Theological Analysis of Hyper-Preterism and Hymenæus Resurrected

 

[LP]

Originally posted by HankD:
Anyway, as I said before I can't quite accept either position : preterist or pre-mill/pre-trib.
Each has difficulties.

Preterism doesn't answer to the global world-wide cataclysmic aspects of the Second Coming, on the other hand, I can't find sufficient scriptural support for a secret "rapture" of believers with airplanes falling out of the sky etc...

But thats me and I certainly won't impugn the faith of a believer with either view.

I guess I'm what one person has defined as a pan-millenialist: It will all pan out in the end.

HankD

Amen, HankD. I have the utmost of respect for this position.

Especially the "I certainly won't impugn the faith of a believer with either view."

Each side may belieive the other is in error, but to call eachother hereitcs over these eschatologies is, I think, way out of line.

I am very glad there are true brethren on both sides. I do try very much to act like it. I don't have any problem with loving and working together for the Faith of Christ with either side)s).

We may debate about eschatology, but in the end, if we don't remember there are true brethren on both sides of this, it is then that we truly lose.

 

[LP]

Originally posted by Chris Temple:
There should be a distinction made between partial-preterism (orthodox and historical) and full-preterism (heterodox). The former believes much of NT prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, but the Second coming, general ressurection and final judgment are still future; the latter believes Christ already came in AD 70.

Good point, CT. Note that partial pre-terists can believe that Christ came in judgement in 70 A.D., but that He will of course come finally and definitively in the end. I am convinced of this form of partial-preterism (orthodox and historical).

[ March 01, 2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

[Ransom]

PreachtheWord said:

LP, preterism has its place in the same pit as all other false doctrine. What you are talking about is a prostitution of the Scripture to fit into a preconceived idea.

Nonsense. Everyone is a preterist to the extent that they believe some prophecy has already been fulfilled. Do you find prophetic significance in the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948? Congratulations, you're a preterist.

First, the phrase "this generation" does not always refer to the Jews in the days of Christ.

Then what is the definition of "generation" when Jesus uses it in Matt. 24:34? Remember that the Dispensationalist hermeneutic is "consistently literal," and therefore you shouldn't have to "spiritualize" this passage in any way.

Second, the tribulation is still future. Mt 24 and Lk 21 refer to future events.

Future to Jesus and the disciples at that time, certainly. But unless you hold to a non-literal "generation," it can hardly be said to be future to us, unless you believe there are still 2000-year-old Jews walking the earth.

 

[Ray Berrian]

HankD,

My understanding of temples is that there were three of these structures successively built on Mt. Moriah. First, Solomon's Temple, secondly, Zerubbabel's Temple, and Herod's Temple that was in existence while our Lord was on the earth.

There will be a Great Tribulation Temple--II Thessalonians 2:4 and the Messianic Temple that will be on earth when Jesus sits in Jerusalem during His theocracy--Zechariah 14:16 and Ezekiel chapters 40-45:2 & 4.

When the antichrist sits in the Great Tribulation Temple he will have defiled it. God Himself will bless the Messianic or Millinium Temple by His sitting on the 'throne of His father, David,' during the 1,000 reign of Christ on the earth. We will be a part of this era of continuing everlasting life. I take it that you believe you receive eternal life, when you receive Christ savingly, into your heart.

Ray

 

[LP]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
There will be a Great Tribulation Temple--II Thessalonians 2:4 and the Messianic Temple that will be on earth when Jesus sits in Jerusalem during His theocracy--Zechariah 14:16 and Ezekiel chapters 40-45:2 & 4.

The "Great Tribulation Temple"? It never ceases to amaze me how "inventive" with the Word of God that dispensationalists must become to maintain their eschatological position. It would be funny if it were not.

Rather,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />And as He was going out of the Temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!" And Jesus said to him, "Do you [disciples] see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another which will not be torn down" (Mark 13:1-2).

And while some were talking about the Temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said, "As for these things which you [disciples] are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down" (Luke 21:5-6).

The only possible interpretation of Jesus' words which He Himself allows, therefore, is that He was speaking of the destruction of the Temple which then stood in Jerusalem, the very buildings which the disciples beheld at that moment in history. The Temple of which Jesus spoke was destroyed in the fall of Jerusalem to the Roman armies in A.D. 70. This is the only possible interpretation of Jesus' prophecy in this chapter. The Great Tribulation ended with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70.

Even in the (unlikely) event that another temple should be built sometime in the future, Jesus' words in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 have nothing to say about it. He was talking solely about the Temple of that generation. There is no Scriptural basis for asserting that any other temple is meant. Jesus confirmed His disciples' fears: Jerusalem's beautiful Temple would be destroyed within that generation; her house would be left desolate.</font>[/QUOTE]Quotes excerpted from Paradise Restoed by David Chilton

[ March 01, 2002, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

What is the point in saying that Herod's Temple was destroyed? I agree with these facts that Titus destroyed many, many of the Israelites in that city in 70 A.D.

This still does not get you out of the dilemma that the antichrist will sit in the Great Tribulation Temple. The Apostle Paul documents this future event in II Thess. 2:4. Don't do a hit and run with your statements. Deal with the Biblical truth coming from God through His chosen penmen.

What say ye?

Use a modern translation and see for yourself.

Ray

 

[Daniel David]

The words of Christ are as follows:

This is Matthew 24:29-34

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Now, Jesus said, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

1. Jesus did not appear yet.
2. ALL THE TRIBES of the earth have not mourned (if anything they cheered).
3. Nobody saw the Son of Man according to the preterist view.

Now, that is enough to dismiss the whole theory, but why not go further?

4. The angels haven't gathered the elect.
5. Jesus said that the generation that sees all these things (Mt 24) comes to pass will not pass away till it is all fulfilled. In other words, the tribulation will not be so long that the current generation will not see it complete. This fits perfectly where it belongs - still in the future. This is the literal understanding of the passage. It is only the highly subjective "spiritualization" method that is totally inconsistent that force feeds "this generation" into always meaning 1st century Jews. Context is so important. Now, I am not a Chaferian dispy. I don't agree with Scofield on many points. So, truthfully, I can't be tossed aside with all other dispies that make a fool of themselves (LaHaye, Falwell, etc.).
6. It is interesting that Jesus mentions Noah. He says that the events He is prophesying will be like nothing man has known. LP, are you going to try and convince people that the destruction of a building and part of a city is greater that the destruction of the whole world? That won't fly with thinking people.

I listed points as to why preterism is false. It cannot come up with a single substantial objection. Instead, a closer look reveals many holes. It is late so I end early. I have spent hours at a time before refuting this stuff in person. I have no desire to type that long.

 

[HankD]

Dear Ray,

You asked...

&lt;&lt;I take it that you believe you receive eternal life, when you receive Christ savingly, into your heart.&gt;&gt;

Yes, Christ has been in my heart from the day He found me.

HankD

 

[Ray Berrian]

Preach the Word,

I like your insight of Biblical truth where you said in effect, 'All these things spoken of will come to pass within a generation.' Better than well said. I wonder if any of our learning students have seen verse 29 happen to date. In my history classes in high school and college the professors never spoke of the 'stars falling from the heavens' causing great havoc on the earth. Neither has anyone to date seen the Lord appear at the Second Coming. One of the reasons why they haven't seen Him is because He will take the church to Heaven at what theologians call the rapture. [I Thess. 4:17].

The Lord was not careless with His words in Matt. 24:21 when He had Matthew use the unique phrase, 'Great Tribulation.' Other horrendous times during the church age were spoken of as merely, 'tribulation.' [Rev. 2:9] for example.

My regards,

Ray

 

[Chris Temple]

The fact is, Matt 24, Luke 21 are both preterist and futurist (already-not yet). Most of those prophecies were fulfilled in AD 70; those speaking of the 2nd Coming have not yet occurred

 

[Ray Berrian]

Matthew 24:1-2 indicates that the disciples wanted to show Jesus ‘ . . . the buildings of the Temple.' Who knows what they were going to show Jesus. Apparently, they were in proximity to the Temple, if they were going to show Him the buildings. {Preterist}

The transition takes place in verse three, when the location has moved from the Temple area, to the Mount of Olives, plus then ‘ . . . the disciples came to Him privately.' Now the discussion moves from ‘buildings' to ‘. . . what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?' {Futurist}

I believe that all will agree that the end of the world has not taken place yet. So from the time of Christ's private meeting with His disciples, this projects a futuristic interpretation of Matthew chapter 24. And as PreachtheWord said in his/her post all of these events from Matt. 24:5-42, will take place within a ‘generation of time.' [ vs. 34] Biblical eschatology submits that the Great Tribulation will last seven years, well within the time framework of one generation.

Many Christians, and I am one of them, who believes that salvation is by grace alone through faith plus nothing. Many Christians and theologians believe that some truly saved Christians might not endure unto the end as to their endurance in the faith. This is not to say that they will again be lost.

What is interesting about Matthew 24:13 is that God said that only those who ‘ . . . shall endure unto the end shall be saved.' God is not teaching salvation by faith and works. This endurance during the Great Tribulation suggests clearly that only those who refused the mark of the antichrist and incur their physical death will be saved eternally. There will be millions, I think, who will evade this edict to kill all who do not take that mark. [Revelation 13:16-18]. Mega-millions will not endure and will take the ‘mark of the Beast' which will ensure their entry into Hell at the hour of their death.

Christians suffer tribulation {like Revelation 2:9; II Corinthians 1:4; Romans 5:3; I Thessalonias 3:4} in China, North Korea, Russia and other parts of the world, but one day is coming when the antichrist will grip the peoples of this world, during the Great Tribulation, {like Matthew 24:21 & Revelation 7:14}an unprecedented time of human brutality.

Brethren, keep looking up, our redemption is nearer than ever before.

Respectfully,

Ray