The Great Whore is Religious Rome

[Iconoclast]

DHK

I would hate to base my salvation on the tenuous date of one book of the Bible.

Salvation is based on the Covenant death of the Lord Jesus Christ.No one bases salvation on the date of revelation.

As I have said before: All of Preterism crumbles when the fictitious date of 70 A.D. is proven wrong.

You say that...but it is not so.The early date if proven would make it certain beyond any doubt.

 

[DHK]

DHK

DHK...thank you for your response and standing your ground.

Here are some other examples:

DHK.....it is proper to voice a concern or warning when anyone seeks to give meaning to allegorical ,and metaphorical language..

If you notice in the examples you offer...like Origen...his ideas were fanciful and brought to the bible from outside of scripture.I believe Chilton seeks to offer interpretations taken from God's usage in scripture of the same language which I will show you by simply opening up the verses he offered.

Origen was a heretic. The reason you find allegory in his writings is he sought to explain his theology through Greek philosophy through which he was educated. The School at Alexandria was infected with Greek philosophy, of which Origen was head.

Gentile powers are shaken as well: Every mountain
and island were moved out of their places
Job 9:5-6;
5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.

6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

What do you know about the Book of Job?
It was written in the same time of Abraham, and thus probably the oldest book in the Bible. Abraham lived before Moses.
Next, the entire book was written in poetry. Can you imagine carrying on a conversation all in poetry? In poetry there are many figures of speech. One cannot take poetry and prose on the same level. You are comparing the figurative language of poetry to what John wrote down as an observer in heaven. Whatever the angel showed him, he wrote, as he was commanded. But remember he was limited in his vocabulary. You would be too.
What would you write when the Bible says:
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
--If your eye has never seen, how can your mind write about it??
John didn't have the vocabulary to accurately express what he was seeing. He did the best he could.

14:18-19;
18 And surely the mountains falling cometh to nought, and the rock is removed out of his place.

19 The waters wear the stones: thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest the hope of man.

28:9-11;
9 He putteth forth his hand upon the rock; he overturneth the mountains by the roots.

10 He cutteth out rivers among the rocks; and his eye seeth every precious thing.

11 He bindeth the floods from overflowing; and the thing that is hid bringeth he forth to light.

All poetry; has nothing to do with anything written in Revelation.

Isa. 41:5, 15-16;

5 The isles saw it, and feared; the ends of the earth were afraid, drew near, and came.
15 Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.

16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the Lord, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah was one of the most educated men in the OT. There are many poetical sections in his book as well. He also uses similes and metaphors. Nevertheless it isn't hard to understand them. Just look at the context. The context in the above is far different than the context of Revelation.

Ezek. 38:20;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

From Ezekiel, a prophet and a prophetical passage. This will yet come. God will judge the world, and that is what the verse is speaking about isn't it?

Nab.1:4-8;
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

7 The Lord is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

Again, judgement against the enemies of Israel.

God’s “old creation,” Israel, is thus to be de-created,

Where all of a sudden did that come from?
Nothing in the Bible says that!

as the Kingdom is transferred to the Church, the New Creation (cf. 2 Pet. 3:7-14).

There was no transference. That IMO is a heretical doctrine called Replacement Theology, where the Church replaces Israel. It is wrong. Israel has never been replaced. She still exists to this day. In Romans 9 and 10 Paul prays for the salvation of Israel. In chapter 11 Paul states that "Israel" will some day "be saved." In 1Cor.10 Paul delineates three groups: the church of God, the gentiles, and the Jews. Israel still exists today. No one ever replaced Israel. There was no transference.
In the NT, God is calling out a nation unto himself, not transferring one.

These ideas he is addressing are from the scriptural language used...not from outside the bible.....he then states that this judgement on the "old creation" is in contrast with the "new creation"

Scriptural language does not equate Biblical accuracy, only foolish ideas.
Paul warned Timothy to avoid such.
The Mormons use such a hermeneutic to justify some of their doctrine.

In Proverbs it says: He that finds a wife finds a good thing.
In Mat.6:33: But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things (many wives) shall be added unto you.
--Using Biblical language to justify heretical doctrine such as polygamy is wrong. And Chilton uses the Bible the same way.

Because the rulers in God’s Vineyard have killed His Son, they
too will be killed (Matt. 21:33-45). The Vineyard itself will be broken down, destroyed, and laid waste (Isa.5:1-7).

You cannot juxtapose two separate parables and draw solid doctrine from them. This is where heresy comes from. Parables don't teach doctrine; they illustrate doctrine that is being taught. You are using the parables to teach new doctrine. That is hermeneutically unsound.

This is solid and no one can deny this.

It is very unsound.

In God’s righteous destruction of Israel, He will
shake even heaven and earth (Matt. 24:29-30; Heb.
12:26-28) in order to deliver His Kingdom over to His
new nation, the Church.

You are misusing Scripture. That did not happen as you say. You can't even get history to vouch for you. The Preterist says it happened in 70 A.D. Where are these events recorded that shook the heaven and the earth?? There were no such events recorded, and therefore Preterism is wrong with its false prophecies. It is no better than EGW and her false prophecies IMO. These things did not come to pass.

here is the language of Hebrews 12;
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Look at the contrast. It is literal, not figurative. The contrast is between the times of Moses and the times of Christ.
When Moses came to Sinai, the Lord literally shook the mountain, and the people feared. How much more should we fear the Lord. He will destroy the earth--shake it or judge it.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

This shaking of the earth is described in Rev.6-19. Look at the literal description:
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
--This is a literal interpretation, and will happen right before His Second Coming.

The writer in hebrews uses the same allegorical language to contrast shaking of the earth and heavens.....something being destoyed against the Kingdom which already was here...which cannot be removed...

No he doesn't. He is using contrast. And it is quite literal.

"God's old creation is Israel."
"Israel is thus to be de-created."

No such nonsense.

DHK...I agree but that does not mean symbols cannot be properly matched in scripture....

Like the divorced couple who took the walls of Jericho falling down to be the walls of their marriage falling down?
Yes, symbols are found every where. How do you know you have the right ones?

You have pre-mill books on your shelf that suggest that the scorpions in revelation are Apache helicopters...so it is not a one way street at all..is it?

I am not and will not be dogmatic on such speculation. That is all it is--speculation.
But I will re-state what I stated previously: John did not have the vocabulary to express fully that which "eye hath not seen," those things he had never seen and could not comprehend with the human mind. But he was commanded to write it down anyway.

 

[The Biblicist]

What I see is a discussion about the date, and an avoidance of the scriptural points about Jerusalem.

What "scriptural points about Jersualem"???????? I read Chilton and what he is forced to do is explain away what is said!! The obvious is explained away by Chilton while the non-obvious is forced upon it.

The harlot sits upon the seven mountains (vv. 9-10) and the harlot is a "city" that sits upon seven mountains and that city is reigning over the kingdoms of the earth when John wrote. This is so clear it takes intentional twisting of scriptures and thinking to avoid the obvious application. Chilton admits that the city that sits upon seven mountains is Rome not Jerusalem and yet weaves and twists the scriptures to teach the very opposite.

I guess we will have to just agree to disagree because as far as I am concerned Chilton is simply making his own koolaide for gullible readers to drink.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Quote:
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
This shaking of the earth is described in Rev.6-19. Look at the literal description:
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
--This is a literal interpretation, and will happen right before His Second Coming

from isa 34.it was not the end of the world DHK...it was a temporal judgement.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

and in rev6;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Hosea 10:8
The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us


Luke 23:30
Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


This language was already used in the OT.....it was literally speaking of judgement at that time, and Jesus warned about the 70 ad judgment in lk. That is what jn spoke of.

 

[The Biblicist]

DHK



from isa 34.it was not the end of the world DHK...it was a temporal judgement.



and in rev6;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.




Hosea 10:8
The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us


Luke 23:30
Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


This language was already used in the OT.....it was literally speaking of judgement at that time, and Jesus warned about the 70 ad judgment in lk. That is what jn spoke of.

My friend this kind of argument is ridiculous. The end of the world prophecies commonly are taken from immediate localized catastrophies throughout the Old Testament. You could say the same thing about the Babylon and Ninveh prophecies in the Old Testament. According to this kind of logic there would be no end of the world prophecies in the Old Testament and no second coming prophecies in the Old Testament because most are found in the context of a more immediate localized setting.

The A.D. 70 predictions are merely another localized setting that have for its greater fulfilment the end of the world at the Second coming of Christ.

 

[DHK]

DHK



from isa 34.it was not the end of the world DHK...it was a temporal judgement.



and in rev6;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.




Hosea 10:8
The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us


Luke 23:30
Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


This language was already used in the OT.....it was literally speaking of judgement at that time, and Jesus warned about the 70 ad judgment in lk. That is what jn spoke of.

The Scripture I quoted to you from Revelation was not fulfilled in 70 A.D. but will be fulfilled just before the coming of Christ.
Suppose that happens just as the world reaches a population of 8 billion. This is not a prediction. It is a supposition. Just suppose.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
--From 8 billion 1/4 of the world's population will be killed off.
That will leave 6 billion.

Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
--Now 1/3 of the remaining 6 billion are killed.
The population is now reduced to 4 billion. That is half the population that we started with in just a very short time.

In 70 A.D. was half the population of the world killed off. Where are the records that this took place?
You can't just spiritualize these things away!

 

[kyredneck]

and I saw, and lo, a pale horse, and he who is sitting upon him -- his name is Death, and Hades doth follow with him, and there was given to them authority to kill, (over the fourth part of the land,) with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and by the beasts of the land. Rev 6:8 YLT

 

[DHK]

and I saw, and lo, a pale horse, and he who is sitting upon him -- his name is Death, and Hades doth follow with him, and there was given to them authority to kill, (over the fourth part of the land,) with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and by the beasts of the land. Rev 6:8 YLT

And your point?
Verify it in history! Not even a quarter of the Jews were killed much less a quarter of the population of the known world at that time--a quarter of the Roman Empire.
The Jews were scattered, not destroyed.

 

[Protestant]

Preterism: Darling Doctrine of the Damned

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

"(The Book of Revelation) is about the destruction of Israel and Christ’s victory over His enemies in the establishment of the New Covenant Temple. In fact, as we shall see, the word coming as used in the Book of Revelation never refers to the Second Coming. Revelation prophesies the judgment of God on apostate Israel; and while it does briefly point to events beyond its immediate concerns, that is done merely as a “wrap-up,” to show that the ungodly will never prevail against Christ’s Kingdom. But the main focus of Revelation is upon events which were soon to take place." (Days of Vengeance, p. 43)

David Chilton, a prolific writer on prophetic subjects, sincerely believed he had the God-given gift of prophetic interpretation.

I do not doubt his sincerity.

I do, however, doubt his calling and salvation.

I base my assessment not on a personal basis, but on the infallible Word of God.

False prophets assume many identities.

Some false prophets preach a false Gospel along with false doctrines. Joel Osteen, Trinity Broadcasting and most of religious TV comes to mind
.
Other false prophets declare false future events. Harold Camping and Ellen G. White come to mind. So do Hal Lindsey and the authors of the ‘Left Behind’ series.

Still other false prophets falsely interpret the prophetic Scriptures.

David Chilton and all Theonomist/Reconstructionists come to mind.

It is no surprise Satan has infiltrated the visible professing Christian Body with false prophets.

Christ and the Apostles prophesied as much.

And it should come as no surprise that our Lord has never left His Body without true prophets.

Christ’s Body is always complete, all its members always intact.

His Body is never missing limbs, eyes or a brain.

The Lord’s truthful prophets do not claim new revelations from the Lord.

Instead, the truthful prophets declare the truth of the closed canon of prophetic Writ.

Prophecy is written in such a way that it is virtually impossible to 100% predict accurately until its fulfillment in history.

The disciples did not understand the prophecies concerning Christ’s death and resurrection, nor did they know which of them was the prophesied devil to betray Christ…..until after the fact.

Early Christian authors prognosticated as to the meaning of the prophetic Scriptures. Some of their guesses had credence, but most did not.

Why?

Because they were attempting to interpret that which had not yet taken place…..an impossible and futile endeavor without historical proof of fulfillment.

As centuries passed and the Papacy took control of the fallen Roman Empire of the West, deviating more and more from biblical orthodoxy, the Lord’s remnant Church began to recognize the fulfillment of prophecy.

From that recognition sprang multiple cries of warnings that the Roman Catholic Church was the Great Whore, her Pope the Antichrist.

These dissenting Christians were given many names and falsely accused of many heresies.

They, unlike the tribulation-free Preterist and Futurist false prophets of our day, sealed their testimony with their blood.

Here’s the dilemma which the Preterist and Futurist must face.

Either the Roman Catholic Church was telling the truth and the dissenters were lying, reprobate heretics who deserved death.

Or the dissenters were telling the truth and should be believed.

And, like Christ, though they were killed, yet they were guilty of no wrongdoing.

But, you say, it is possible the dissenters were both Christians and mistaken…….sincere, but sincerely mistaken, deceived into believing a lie.

Perhaps they died believing a lie.

In which case, the Lord allowed His people, the true Christians, to die believing a lie.

But is that the true character of the biblical Jesus?

Or is it the promise of Jesus to speak the truth through His future persecuted people who are brought before the ecclesiastical authorities?

"But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist."

Essentially, Preterists believe the Roman Catholic Church was telling the truth.

Otherwise they could not, in good conscience, interpret prophetic Writ in such a profane and biased manner favorable to Roman Catholicism, while damning to the dissenters.

Damning to those who were true Christians.

Is it not obvious their Protestant Christian profession is a blatant lie?

They may forever call themselves Calvinists, yet they are liars who deny the very prophetic truths which Calvin and the Reformers preached until their last dying breaths.

They may call themselves Christians but, in reality, they hate the brethren.

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now."

"I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Origen was a heretic. The reason you find allegory in his writings is he sought to explain his theology through Greek philosophy through which he was educated. The School at Alexandria was infected with Greek philosophy, of which Origen was head.

No one was discussing him...you have brought him into the discussion

What do you know about the Book of Job?
It was written in the same time of Abraham, and thus probably the oldest book in the Bible. Abraham lived before Moses.
Next, the entire book was written in poetry. Can you imagine carrying on a conversation all in poetry? In poetry there are many figures of speech. One cannot take poetry and prose on the same level

.

same here...even if poetic expression is employed by the Spirit of God...it represents literal truth. I never disputed this.

You are comparing the figurative language of poetry to what John wrote down as an observer in heaven

.

I offered what i did because it is important to let scripture clarify scripture.We will see it again shortly in this post.

Whatever the angel showed him, he wrote, as he was commanded. But remember he was limited in his vocabulary. You would be too.

Men wrote as the were borne along by the Spirit of God.

What would you write when the Bible says:
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
--If your eye has never seen, how can your mind write about it??

THis quote is from ISA.64;
64 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!

3 When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.

4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

in 1cor 2 we are given the other piece of the puzzle;
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

This suggests to me the the bible revealation is self contained truth.The answers are there when we compare spiritual things with spiritual.....the figures types, metaphors,hyperbolic language blend together... we are not to ignore the language and how God uses it.

John didn't have the vocabulary to accurately express what he was seeing. He did the best he could.

yes he wrote what God wanted him to.the whole book appeals to much in the OT. To deny this, or ignore expressions used by God Himself ...is to go into error.That is why these expressions are repeated.

To suggest they are "nonsense" and to be easily dismissed as you and my friend B have done...I believe to be mistaken.

is there a danger in mis-using the types, metaphors, etc....Yes ..most certainly. Do I claim to have it all figured out? No...I am still very open to study on these things.
Do I claim Chilton has it all correct, no! I do believe he has made a solid attempt to link many of the OT verses to this book.

It will not be comfortable for you and others who cling to your hyper-literalism to move into this language.You seek to dismiss most of it out of hand, as if God did not put it in scripture to begin with.

Nothing in REV.6 shows that this is the end of the world . Nothing shows this is the final judgement. What do you think shows this is the end of the world?

All of this language was used by Isa speaking of the judgement of God, on Idumea, and as B said Babylon.

The same exact language was used then....IT WAS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD.....it was those nations be judged by God,and being brought down and replaced. The same language is being used of apostate Jerusalem.in REV 6;

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Do you believe that the stars are LITERALLY going to fall from heaven here?
DHK..before you drift off to some other place...address this language in ISA 34...right here....the heavens roll up like a scroll according to Isa 34-

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.


DHK...did their blood...LITERALLY MELT the Mountains....give me your best LITERAL understanding
You tell me how this language is to be understood:thumbsup:

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll:

again DHK....Did the heavens[sun, moon, stars,] dissolve...LITERALLY?
Did the heavens....roll up like a scroll...LITERALLY?

Do not tell me about Origen again...I want you to explain what Isa. wrote here ...these nations were judged by God...in literal History...this was the language used.
If the stars did not literally fall to the earth...what does that language mean? Chilton offered solid ideas on this which you and B have dismissed. i am not convinced of everything he has offered, but you must first answer this language.

and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
All poetry; has nothing to do with anything written in Revelation.

It has everything to do with what is written in REV. what other purpose was it given? to fill space and be dismissed with no purpose...so we can just skip over it for no reason....instead of comparing spiritual things with spiritual????

Isaiah was one of the most educated men in the OT. There are many poetical sections in his book as well. He also uses similes and metaphors. Nevertheless it isn't hard to understand them. Just look at the context. The context in the above is far different than the context of Revelation.

really ! ok...lets focus here on Isa 34....and isa 13......offer your explanation and show how we differ..... i say the same language used by isa...is now used by Jn. he understood by the Spirit,how Isaiah
used it,a nd he follows the same pattern by the Spirit. You show how it is different if you can.:thumbsup:

I must work now... i will get back to part 2 later on...Lord willing. let's focus here first...I think it will be profitable.:type:

 

[DHK]

Do you believe that the stars are LITERALLY going to fall from heaven here?

Stars fall from heaven all the time. Some call them "falling stars." They are meteorites, and they can cause a tremendous amount of damage. There have been some fairly big meteors hit the earth in the past few years in case you haven't been paying attention. This is a natural phenomena. God could easily use this very natural phenomena, a storm of meteorites to hit the earth in the not too distant future. Scientists talk about such things on a regular basis.

DHK..before you drift off to some other place...address this language in ISA 34...right here....the heavens roll up like a scroll according to Isa 34-

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

DHK...did their blood...LITERALLY MELT the Mountains....give me your best LITERAL understanding
You tell me how this language is to be understood:thumbsup:

When blood rolls down the hill side it gives the appearance of melting, especially if it is mixed with snow. Snow melts. There will be a lot of blood shed. It will turn red. This is speaking of the end times which you deny. It hasn't happened yet. That is why you can't fit it into your 70 A.D. paradigm.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll:

again DHK....Did the heavens[sun, moon, stars,] dissolve...LITERALLY?
Did the heavens....roll up like a scroll...LITERALLY?

There is a host of others that believe it, Icon. Why the unbelief.
Do you ever sing of the hymn that Horatio Spafford wrote:

And Lord please haste the day when my faith shall be sight
The clouds be rolled back as a scroll
The trumpets shall resound and the Lord shall descend
Even so it is well with my soul

What do you think he had in mind?

Or James M. Black in 1893, when he wrote

When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more,
And the morning breaks, eternal, bright and fair;
When the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.
Refrain
When the roll, is called up yon-der,
When the roll, is called up yon-der,
When the roll, is called up yon-der,
When the roll is called up yonder I’ll be there.

Most Christians believe literally that the clouds will be rolled back like a scroll. The skies will open up. Jesus will come again. This is nothing new.

Do not tell me about Origen again...I want you to explain what Isa. wrote here ...these nations were judged by God...in literal History...this was the language used.
If the stars did not literally fall to the earth...what does that language mean? Chilton offered solid ideas on this which you and B have dismissed. i am not convinced of everything he has offered, but you must first answer this language.

Chilton uses heretical hermeneutical methods to try to interpret scripture.
These things WILL happen; not have happened. That is why you can't understand. You are trying to force them into the past. Obviously they don't make sense to you. They haven't happened yet.
The nations will be judged of God.
The stars will fall to heaven
Why are you doubting God?

It has everything to do with what is written in REV. what other purpose was it given? to fill space and be dismissed with no purpose...so we can just skip over it for no reason....instead of comparing spiritual things with spiritual????

You are dismissing scripture and giving yourself over to a man's vain philosophy. Do you also believe in numerology?

really ! ok...lets focus here on Isa 34....and isa 13......offer your explanation and show how we differ..... i say the same language used by isa...is now used by Jn. he understood by the Spirit,how Isaiah
used it,a nd he follows the same pattern by the Spirit. You show how it is different if you can.:thumbsup:

Isaiah 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
--Judgement on all nations; and "all things that come forth." It is future.

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
--There will be a new heaven and a new earth. Peter also speaks of this.

Isaiah 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
--Possibly the battle of Armageddon as described in Revelation.
But it will also have a local fulfillment as most prophecies do.

Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
--The Day of the Lord almost always refers to the end times which includes The Tribulation and the Second Coming.

Isaiah 13 is a picture of God's wrath being poured out on this world such as is described in Revelation, an event that has not happened yet. These things have never happened in history. If they did there was only a partial fulfillment, certainly not a full or complete fulfillment.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist

B....have not had much time to respond to your posts..I would like to, but my lack of typing skills limit how much i can do:laugh:

I guess we will have to just agree to disagree because as far as I am concerned Chilton is simply making his own koolaide for gullible readers to drink.

:laugh: Listen....i am glad we agree on most everything else:thumbsup:
I enjoy your posts as they are biblically solid, and i have asked for all to be critical of this postmill idea...as i am still looking at it critically, however I see much biblical support for the position.

As time permits i will re-address some of what i have left hanging with you and try and offer up ideas to be attacked if need be.
This is a work in progress for me.Sorry i cannot offer up a clearer defense at this point:wavey:

I am on a short break..so i will comment on this one;

My friend this kind of argument is ridiculous. The end of the world prophecies commonly are taken from immediate localized catastrophies throughout the Old Testament. You could say the same thing about the Babylon and Ninveh prophecies in the Old Testament. According to this kind of logic there would be no end of the world prophecies in the Old Testament and no second coming prophecies in the Old Testament because most are found in the context of a more immediate localized setting.

B...here is an idea. What if most of the prophecies were short range, with local fulfillments....and the only long term prophecy would be the victorious spread of the gospel worldwide over a long period of time......and the main end time prophecy would not include catastrophic events...but rather life going on on a regular basis until the sudden appearing of Jesus on the last day...as Jesus said it this way:

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

This could have been the 70 ad judgement, but if it is the last day notice that it was normal life, until the judgement...they were not ready...LOOK in vs 27;

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

many suppose this to be the "rapture", however it is easily proven false...

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

i will address this post later on tonight......meteor showers??? really..instead of the stars falling from heaven....I do not think for one minute it is literal stars at all.

If you do...let's take one star...not a meterorite.....one star like our sun.....before it got close to earth we would be burnt to a crisp....much less stars plural...so your insistence on this strict literal interpretation is weak and unbelievable.....you do not really believe it yourself as i will show at length as you begin to explain away from the literal to symbolic here;

When blood rolls down the hill side it gives the appearance of melting, especially if it is mixed with snow. Snow melts. There will be a lot of blood shed. It will turn red. This is speaking of the end times which you deny. It hasn't happened yet. That is why you can't fit it into your 70 A.D. paradigm.

"the appearance of melting"...so you offer a symbolic idea instead of a literal one, yet when Chilton does it..he is doing what mormons do,,,,lol..cmon DHK...i will get back to this...lol

 

[Iconoclast]

Protestant

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.[/I]

David Chilton, a prolific writer on prophetic subjects, sincerely believed he had the God-given gift of prophetic interpretation.

I do not doubt his sincerity.

I do, however, doubt his calling and salvation.

I base my assessment not on a personal basis, but on the infallible Word of God.

I think you are over the top here Because his end time calendar is not the same as yours you call his salvation into question??
I will look at your idea now.....

False prophets assume many identities.

Some false prophets preach a false Gospel along with false doctrines. Joel Osteen, Trinity Broadcasting and most of religious TV comes to mind
.
Other false prophets declare false future events. Harold Camping and Ellen G. White come to mind. So do Hal Lindsey and the authors of the ‘Left Behind’ series.

Still other false prophets falsely interpret the prophetic Scriptures.

David Chilton and all Theonomist/Reconstructionists come to mind.

It is no surprise Satan has infiltrated the visible professing Christian Body with false prophets.

Christ and the Apostles prophesied as much.

And it should come as no surprise that our Lord has never left His Body without true prophets.

Christ’s Body is always complete, all its members always intact.

His Body is never missing limbs, eyes or a brain.

The Lord’s truthful prophets do not claim new revelations from the Lord.

Instead, the truthful prophets declare the truth of the closed canon of prophetic Writ.

Where has Chilton claimed new revelation at all???give me a few quotes please:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

meteor showers??? really..instead of the stars falling from heaven....I do not think for one minute it is literal stars at all.

Does it make you uncomfortable to take the Bible at face value?
Even today people refer to meteors as "stars."
The Bible is not a science text book. John wrote what he observed.

If you do...let's take one star...not a meterorite.....one star like our sun.....before it got close to earth we would be burnt to a crisp....much less stars plural...so your insistence on this strict literal interpretation is weak and unbelievable.....you do not really believe it yourself as i will show at length as you begin to explain away from the literal to symbolic here;

No, I take it literally, from the point of view of how John would describe what he saw.
John saw a star fall to the earth.
You want to put John in a box. You want to force him to say:

John saw: "one of the small particles of matter in the solar system that are directly observable only by their incandescence from frictional heating on entry into the atmosphere."
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meteor

He saw what he defined as a "star," and what some people still call a "star." The Bible isn't a science text.

"the appearance of melting

"...so you offer a symbolic idea instead of a literal one, yet when Chilton does it..he is doing what mormons do,,,,lol..cmon DHK...i will get back to this...lol

No, I offer you the most plausible explanation that either John or the prophet saw in their visions. Their vocabulary was limited; not their revelation.

 

[Protestant]

Protestant, I think you are over the top here Because his end time calendar is not the same as yours you call his salvation into question??

Iconoclast:

Love your pseudonym. Had you knowledge of your Iconoclastic Church history you would understand the depth and scope of its meaning.

History is replete with numerous instances and movements of iconoclasm initiated by true Christians who condemned and pulled down the graven images and idols mandated by the Roman Catholic Church.

True Christians recognized that the 2nd Council of Nicea whereby image worship was not only legalized, but mandated, was apostasy on a grand scale.

The Council of Frankfort, 794, condemned Nicea's enactment, proving the Lord had not given over all theologians of that age to a reprobate mind.

Walk into any Roman Catholic Church today, watching the abominable ritual of the Mass, and you will see what amounts to a visible exposition of the Revelation before your very eyes.

That is, assuming the log has been removed.

I view Mr. Chilton a very religious man.

Much like the Pharisees.

Much like the Dominionist Roman Popes, bishops and clergy in the Middle Ages.

But a heart for God's people?

Not in the least.

Any child can google the origins of Preterism and discover its full-orbed heresies were instigated by the Jesuits (e.g. Alcasar) as an anti-dote to the Protestant Reformation's detailed, factual exegesis of the Revelation, as well as the other key prophetic Scriptures, both Old and New Testament.

My knowledge of Preterist origins came from studying volumes of works of highly respected Protestant expositors of the Revelation through the centuries.

Preterism is accepted by the RCC as a valid interpretation of Revelation.

And so it should be......it completely dismisses centuries of unparalleled blood-letting, priestcraft and perversions....all committed in the name of Jesus Christ and to the glory of Almighty God.

Mr. Chilton has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof.

From such, we are admonished, to turn away.

Mr. Chilton denies the power of God to teach the weavers, farmers, craftsmen, and dissenting Roman Catholic clerics the truth contained in the Word of God.

Instead of hearing the Spirit of God speaking through these persecuted, tormented, humble, simple people, Chilton hears the voice of the proud, arrogant, pretentious Roman Catholic Episcopate.

It is to this wicked voice that he dances.

Thus, he can dismiss century after century of atrocities and blasphemies committed by professing Christians as inconsequential to us today.

In his warped mind, Israel was the real foe to be dreaded.

It is as if John was so ignorant of Israel's sordid history and prophesied crucifixion of Christ that he needed a special messenger -- an angel sent by God -- to explain to him the obvious.

It is as if the persecution of Christ's true remnant Church through the ages by the Roman Catholic authorities was not worthy of even a footnote in the Revelation by which future Christians could be both warned and instructed.

Genuine Christianity is more than head knowledge attained from a seminary degree.

Genuine Christianity is about people.

It is about love of the brethren.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Mr. Chilton proves his love of the unrighteous Roman Catholic Church by making a career of teaching and preaching Preterism which hates, denigrates and dismisses the value of the true Christian martyrs who loved not their lives unto the death.

Thus, Mr. Chilton is a child of the Devil.

There are no devils in Heaven.

 

[Protestant]

Testimony of Agnes Prest, 1558

It is the express purpose of this writer to educate fellow Christians as to the very cruel, depraved nature of the Beast as foretold in the Revelation…..the nature of which until recent history had not changed significantly in a millennia.

I use two sources: Seeley and Burnside’s 19th century 8-volume edition of Foxe’s Acts and Monuments, volume 8; and A complete parochial history of the county of Cornwall , edited by Joseph Polsue (http://www.exetermemories.co.uk/em/executed/prest.php?height=400&width=500)

It was during the reign of Bloody Queen Mary that her husband and children informed the Roman Catholic authorities of her Protestant beliefs. Mrs. Prest had refused to attend Mass and so fled from the family rather than be compelled to bow to their false god.

Taken before the Grand Jury she was deemed worthy to be tried for the crime of “denying the Real Presence in the sacrament of the altar; and for saying the same was but a sign and figure of Christ's body; and that no Christian doth eat the body of Christ carnally, but spiritually."

Found guilty at trial, Mrs. Prest was then taken to Bishop Turberville of Exeter for further examination.

This illiterate 54-year-old English weaver had been viciously taunted for her beliefs, having been called an Anabaptist, mad woman, drunkard, whore and vagabond. Yet she remained steadfast throughout.

"I will rather die than do any worship to that foul idol, which in your Mass you make a god."

"If denying to worship that bready god be my martyrdom, I will suffer it with all my heart."

"Upon Sundays and holy days I made excuses not to go to the popish church...but God gave me grace to go to the true church. Not your popish church, full of idols and abominations, but where three or four are gathered together in the name of God, to that church will I go, as long as I live."

"Let [the Sacred Host] be your god, it shall not be mine; for my Saviour sitteth on the right hand of God, and doth pray for me. And to make that sacramental bread, instituted for a remembrance, the very body of Christ, and to worship it, is very foolishness and devilish deceit."

Then stepped forth an old friar and asked her what she said of the holy pope.

“I SAY THAT HE IS ANTICHRIST AND THE DEVIL."

Then they all laughed.

"Nay, you have more need to weep than to laugh, and to be sorry that you were born, to be the chaplains of that WHORE OF BABYLON; I DEFY HIM AND ALL HIS FALSEHOOD."

Then the bishop said the devil did lead her.

"No, my lord, it is the Spirit of God which leadeth me, and which called me in my bed, and at midnight opened his truth to me."

Then there was a great shout and laughing among the priests and others.

"After her condemnation, she refused to receive any money from well disposed people, that formerly relieved her, saying she was going to that City where money had no mastery. Soon after she was delivered over to the secular power to be burnt, to Robert Cary, of Cockington, Esqr., then Sheriff of Devonshire, or to his under-Sheriff, who saw her executed at Southernhay, without the walls of Exon, in the 54th year of her age, and in the month of November, 1558."

Mr. Chilton would have us believe Israel was the Whore of Babylon, Nero the Antichrist.

I ask the Reader: Whom do you believe, Preterist Chilton or Protestant Prest?

 

[Iconoclast]

Protestant

Iconoclast:

Love your pseudonym. Had you knowledge of your Iconoclastic Church history you would understand the depth and scope of its meaning.

I am not a history expert but know enough to have picked the name.Not everything they did was lawful but i liked there spirit in reacting against the error.

History is replete with numerous instances and movements of iconoclasm initiated by true Christians who condemned and pulled down the graven images and idols mandated by the Roman Catholic Church.

yes it is...I am an ex RC.

True Christians recognized that the 2nd Council of Nicea whereby image worship was not only legalized, but mandated, was apostasy on a grand scale.

:thumbsup:

The Council of Frankfort, 794, condemned Nicea's enactment, proving the Lord had not given over all theologians of that age to a reprobate mind.

Walk into any Roman Catholic Church today, watching the abominable ritual of the Mass, and you will see what amounts to a visible exposition of the Revelation before your very eyes.

Actually...it is a blasphemous parody of the OT tabernacle and holy of Holies.

That is, assuming the log has been removed.

You might be ahead of yourself just a bit...PT.

I view Mr. Chilton a very religious man.

Much like the Pharisees.

I asked you for some documentation for any or all of your charges concerning David Chilton....you have not provided any as of yet,

Much like the Dominionist Roman Popes, bishops and clergy in the Middle Ages.

But a heart for God's people?

Not in the least.

again...on what basis do you make this charge...i am not a david chilton expert...do you have any knowledge concerning him that you can offer and document....if not you are talebearing and bearing false witness.

Any child can google the origins of Preterism and discover its full-orbed heresies were instigated by the Jesuits (e.g. Alcasar) as an anti-dote to the Protestant Reformation's detailed, factual exegesis of the Revelation, as well as the other key prophetic Scriptures, both Old and New Testament.

Can you like Mr.Chilton to these heresies directly? if you cannot, the fact that heresies exist do not disqualify this idea at all.

My knowledge of Preterist origins came from studying volumes of works of highly respected Protestant expositors of the Revelation through the centuries.

Preterism is accepted by the RCC as a valid interpretation of Revelation.

Unless you can link any of the present writers to old heretics...this info is meaningless. I have not seen the modern writers quote from heretics...if you have ...show it.

And so it should be......it completely dismisses centuries of unparalleled blood-letting, priestcraft and perversions....all committed in the name of Jesus Christ and to the glory of Almighty God.

These years of sinful actions have nothing to do with the verses being discussed.

Mr. Chilton has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof.

show it...or stop saying such foolishness.

From such, we are admonished, to turn away.

if you cannot demonstrate your point...I will turn away from you.

Mr. Chilton denies the power of God to teach the weavers, farmers, craftsmen, and dissenting Roman Catholic clerics the truth contained in the Word of God.

same here...charge after charge...no proof of any of this

Instead of hearing the Spirit of God speaking through these persecuted, tormented, humble, simple people, Chilton hears the voice of the proud, arrogant, pretentious Roman Catholic Episcopate.

if you do not demonstrate this...you will lose all credibility.

It is to this wicked voice that he dances.

Thus, he can dismiss century after century of atrocities and blasphemies committed by professing Christians as inconsequential to us today.

In his warped mind, Israel was the real foe to be dreaded.

It is as if John was so ignorant of Israel's sordid history and prophesied crucifixion of Christ that he needed a special messenger -- an angel sent by God -- to explain to him the obvious.

same charges..no proof.

the persecution of Christ's true remnant Church through the ages by the Roman Catholic authorities was not worthy of even a footnote in the Revelation by which future Christians could be both warned and instructed.

revelation was written to the 1st century church...not as a secret guide map to tip you off about Rome.

Genuine Christianity is more than head knowledge attained from a seminary degree.

Genuine Christianity is about people.

It is about love of the brethren.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Mr. Chilton proves his love of the unrighteous Roman Catholic Church by making a career of teaching and preaching Preterism which hates, denigrates and dismisses the value of the true Christian martyrs who loved not their lives unto the death.

Thus, Mr. Chilton is a child of the Devil.

There are no devils in Heaven.
[/QUOTE]


You show yourself to be an accuser of the brethren...unless you can back up anything you said...that is all i want to see you post ..is your documentation of anything you posted here.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Does it make you uncomfortable to take the Bible at face value?

No not at all. I believe in a young earth, a six day creation etc.historical narrative is to be believed as is.

prophetic language and images are given on purpose for a reason however...and we must use scripture to teach us what the other scriptures mean.

Even today people refer to meteors as "stars."
The Bible is not a science text book. John wrote what he observed.

This is weak and unacceptable...the language used could not befulfilled as written and literal, unless the language was speaking of the last day.

When you tried to explain the verses in the other post...it was all wrong..i will show you why;

Isaiah 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
--Judgement on all nations; and "all things that come forth." It is future.

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
--There will be a new heaven and a new earth. Peter also speaks of this.

here is your problem DHK....isa 34 is not talking about the end of the world.....it was a judgement on the edomites[idumea}...
from bible study tools-

Idumea--originally extending from the Dead Sea to the Red Sea; afterwards they obtained possession of the country east of Moab, of which Bozrah was capital. Petra or Selah, called Joktheel ( 2 Kings 14:7 ), Edom ( 2 Samuel 8:13 2 Samuel 8:14 ). Under Jehoram they regained independence ( 2 Chronicles 21:8 ). Under Amaziah they were again subdued, and Selah taken ( 2 Kings 14:7 ). When Judah was captive in Babylon, Edom, in every way, insulted over her fallen mistress, killed many of those Jews whom the Chaldeans had left, and hence was held guilty of fratricide by God (Esau, their ancestor, having been brother to Jacob): this was the cause of the denunciations of the prophets against Edom ( Isaiah 63:1 , &c.; Jeremiah 49:7 , Ezekiel 25:12-14 , 35:3-15 , Joel 3:19 , Amos 1:11 Amos 1:12 , Obadiah 1:8 Obadiah 1:10 Obadiah 1:12-18 Malachi 1:3 Malachi 1:4 ). Nebuchadnezzar humbled Idumea accordingly ( Jeremiah 25:15-21 ).
of my curse--that is, doomed to it.
to judgment--that is, to execute it.

like wise you say this;

Isaiah 13 is a picture of God's wrath being poured out on this world such as is described in Revelation, an event that has not happened yet. These things have never happened in history. If they did there was only a partial fulfillment, certainly not a full or complete fulfillment.

Yes it did..it was descriptive of babylons destruction...the figurative language had a literal fulfillment in history,and the same language did NOT equal the end of the world. see the following;

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
For the stars of heaven - This verse cannot be understood literally, but is a metaphorical representation of the calamities that were coming upon Babylon

The meaning of the figure evidently is, that those calamities would be such as would be appropriately denoted by the sudden extinguishment of the stars, the sun, and the moon. As nothing would tend more to anarchy, distress, and ruin, than thus to have all the lights of heaven suddenly and forever quenched, this was an apt and forcible representation of the awful calamities that were coming upon the people. Darkness and night, in the Scriptures, are often the emblem of calamity and distress (see the note at Matthew 24:29). The revolutions and destructions of kingdoms and nations are often represented in the Scriptures under this image. So respecting the destruction of Idumea Isaiah 34:4 :

And all the hosts of heaven shall be dissolved,

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
For the stars of heaven "Yea, the stars of heaven" - The Hebrew poets, to express happiness, prosperity, the instauration and advancement of states, kingdoms, and potentates, make use of images taken from the most striking parts of nature, from the heavenly bodies, from the sun, moon, and stars: which they describe as shining with increased splendor, and never setting. The moon becomes like the meridian sun, and the sun's light is augmented sevenfold; (see Isaiah 30:26); new heavens and a new earth are created, and a brighter age commences. On the contrary, the overflow and destruction of kingdoms is represented by opposite images. The stars are obscured, the moon withdraws her light, and the sun shines no more! The earth quakes, and the heavens tremble; and all things seem tending to their original chaos, See Joel 2:10; Joel 3:15, Joel 3:16; Amos 8:9; Matthew 24:29; and De S. Poes. Herb. Prael. 6 et IX.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For the stars of heaven,.... This and what follows are to be understood, not literally, but figuratively, as expressive of the dismalness and gloominess of the dispensation, of the horror and terror of it, in which there was no light, no comfort, no relief, nor any hope of any; the heavens and all the celestial bodies frowning upon them, declaring the displeasure of him that dwells there:

and the moon shall not cause her light to shine: by night, which she borrows from the sun; so that it would be very uncomfortable, day and night, neither sun, moon, nor stars appearing, see Acts 27:20 by the sun, moon, and stars, may be meant king, queen, and nobles, whose destruction is here prophesied of; it being usual in prophetic language, as well as in other writers (f), to express great personages hereby.

Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
--The Day of the Lord almost always refers to the end times which includes The Tribulation and the Second Coming.

there were other Day of the Lord's in the Ot speaking of his coming judgement. Do not think you are wiggling out on this language DHK by saying there might have been a local fulfillment....

The fact is all had a local ot fulfillment...and the world did not end, when the heaven was "rolled" up like a scroll.....You and your "system" fails big time to answer to the language.

Isaiah 13 is a picture of God's wrath being poured out on this world such as is described in Revelation, an event that has not happened yet.

Wrong...babylon was judged

These things have never happened in history.

yes they did...so you have no explanation for the language, and yet you will quickly avoid the obvious figurative nature of the language.

If they did there was only a partial fulfillment, certainly not a full or complete fulfillment.

there was a complete fulfillment then, there was a complete fulfillment in 70 ad...and the world did not end...the temple did end..it was the day of God's vengeance as jesus spoke of in LK;
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

it happened between 66-70 ad:thumbsup:

No, I take it literally, from the point of view of how John would describe what he saw.
John saw a star fall to the earth.
You want to put John in a box. You want to force him to say:

John saw: "one of the small particles of matter in the solar system that are directly observable only by their incandescence from frictional heating on entry into the atmosphere."

He saw what he defined as a "star," and what some people still call a "star." The Bible isn't a science text.

This is total nonsense by you...John used the exact language used in the OT..it was stars plural

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

No, I offer you the most plausible explanation that either John or the prophet saw in their visions. Their vocabulary was limited; not their revelation.

You need to abandon your false and flawed hermenutic and use scripture to interpret scripture.

 

[DHK]

You need to abandon your false and flawed hermenutic and use scripture to interpret scripture.

I haven't abandoned Scripture at all. But you have.
Here is what I would like you to do.
First, you have interpreted the Scripture in the light of Preterism which I consider to be heretical.
Second, I would like you to go back and look at the eschatological positions of the authors that you quoted. Were any of them Pre-milleniallists? Were they all Post-mills? What was their stand when it comes to eschatology? Answer that. It is important in your approach to Scripture.

When you have done that, I will quote to you half a dozen pre-mill scholars and see how they interpret the same passages. Do you think it will be the same way as you have presented it? Or are you too, a Post-mill?