The 'Greater Good' Philosophical Notion

[Dr. Walter]

HP: That is precisely what I pointed out above. My facts were straight. You NEVER stated you were in disagreement with his comment, for you said "I AGREE!!" You simply reworded it as you might say it and then still clearly implied you would say it like Steaver did IF the 'greater good' was the 'reater picture'being adressed. I believe any fair reader would have concluded that you indeed agreed with him but might reword it slightly differently ONLY IF the greater picture was not being addressed.

Now on the other hand, if you believe Steaver was wrong, including the possibility Steaver was looking at the greater picture, simply say so. :thumbs:

Look! I know what I agreed with and what I did not agree with. In the post you quote I was not referring to that particular statement at all and my continued explanation proves that. This later post was post #78 which was a direct response to a second post by Steaver long after his earlier post.

I have given you explicit scripture dealing with God's overall purpose of good and in regard to sin and "all things." You simply cannot deal with the scriptures so you change the subject to philosophical debating.

In post #78 above I told him that I told Steaver that God never approves of individual acts of sin but they were allowed or permitted only. However, in the whole grande scheme of things, not looking at indivdual acts of sin but the overall purpose to permit sin, the eternal counsel of God approved to use whatever sin that will be made to glorify God while RESTRAINING or refusing to give permission for sin that would not accomplish this goal (Psa. 76:10).

Even in the overall purpose of God there is no approval of sin as sin, as God can never at any time approve sin, there is merely approval for the use of sin within the eternal counsel of God to accomplish ultimate good for His people and ultimate glory for His Person.

I gave you the scriptures! These scriptures deal explicit with the question and explicitly state God does work ALL THINGS including sin for the ultimate Good of His people and His glory. You cannot deal with the scriptures so you pick a philosophical fight.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The OP asked for scripture to support that God works ALL THINGS, thus including sin, for the ultimate good for his people and the glory of God. I gave the scriptures. No one has been able to respond to those scriptures and prove they do not teach that very thing - an ultimate good unto which God works ALL THINGS.

If you cannot deny those scriptures then stop debating as that was the OP

Look! I know what I agreed with and what I did not agree with. In the post you quote I was not referring to that particular statement at all and my continued explanation proves that. This later post was post #78 which was a direct response to a second post by Steaver long after his earlier post.

I have given you explicit scripture dealing with God's overall purpose of good and in regard to sin and "all things." You simply cannot deal with the scriptures so you change the subject to philosophical debating.

In post #78 above I told him that I told Steaver that God never approves of individual acts of sin but they were allowed or permitted only. However, in the whole grande scheme of things, not looking at indivdual acts of sin but the overall purpose to permit sin, the eternal counsel of God approved to use whatever sin that will be made to glorify God while RESTRAINING or refusing to give permission for sin that would not accomplish this goal (Psa. 76:10).

Even in the overall purpose of God there is no approval of sin as sin, as God can never at any time approve sin, there is merely approval for the use of sin within the eternal counsel of God to accomplish ultimate good for His people and ultimate glory for His Person.

I gave you the scriptures! These scriptures deal explicit with the question and explicitly state God does work ALL THINGS including sin for the ultimate Good of His people and His glory. You cannot deal with the scriptures so you pick a philosophical fight.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: Your position requires God to have a MUTABLE nature of holiness

.

HP: My position is that God has the power of contrary choice, the 'possibility' exits He could choose other than He does, but simply never exercises such power nor does He, or will He ever, choose to act in a manner contrary to holiness. Your position has God creating powers for sentient beings that He Himself does not have, an absurd deduction IMHO.

DW:Since God's holiness is not MUTABLE but IMMUTABLE, He is not able to exercise contrary choice in regard to holiness - He cannot sin - He cannot lie - it is impossible - simply because His nature is not mutable.

HP: OK, once again you have a God creating powers for others He Himself does not possess. Simply absurd. Some Omnipotent God that would be. He is Omnipotent…..except for certain powers man possesses.

DW: His own nature is controlled by holy and righteous thinking and desires which in turn control His own will.

HP: A will DW???? A mind necessitated to compulsion has no will or makes any choices. Compulsion is god and compulsion alone decides if any between what it will coerce and what it will not. You trample on the clear meaning of every morla term imaginable. Take righteousness for instance. Righteousness denote a choice between two alternatives, the right and good being chose over the evil. Righteousness cannot be driven by compulsion any more than a rock can be moral in nature. If morality is to be predicated of anything, including but not limited to the righteous nature of God, contrary choice must exist as a possibility.

DW: For His will to choose contrary choice to his nature, He would first have to have SINFUL desires and SINFUL thoughts in order to choose a SINFUL act! IMPOSSIBLE!

HP: That was indeed the case with Christ, for he was indeed tempted in ALL POINTS AS WE ARE (and how are we tempted?? When we are drawn away of our own lusts and enticed) yet He did not yield to those proclivities of the flesh and as such never sinned. Sinful desires do not constitute sin in and of themselves. Desires must be yielded to in order for sin to be conceived. Sin does not lie in the constitution of the flesh but rather in the will as we voluntarily yield to it. Listen to James once more and do not err.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

DW: Likewise, fallen man has been confirmed in an IMMUTABLE unholy nature and nothing but an act of CREATION can change it.

HP: If that was true from the moment of election forward, as logic would demand if I were to accept what you have stated so far as the truth, it would be absurd to punish man for something absolutely unavoidable, and wickedly absurd to punish man in an eternal literal hell for an unavoidable fate such as you describe.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Bible explicitly states that it "is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie." If your position were Biblical the Bible could not use the word "impossible." This statement of impossibility is grounded upon the impossibility that his moral nature can change (Mal. 3:6).

Your argument is with God's word ("impossible") not with me.

.

HP: My position is that God has the power of contrary choice, the 'possibility' exits He could choose other than He does, but simply never exercises such power nor does He, or will He ever, choose to act in a manner contrary to holiness. Your position has God creating powers for sentient beings that He Himself does not have, an absurd deduction IMHO.



HP: OK, once again you have a God creating powers for others He Himself does not possess. Simply absurd. Some Omnipotent God that would be. He is Omnipotent…..except for certain powers man possesses.




HP: A will DW???? A mind necessitated to compulsion has no will or makes any choices. Compulsion is god and compulsion alone decides if any between what it will coerce and what it will not. You trample on the clear meaning of every morla term imaginable. Take righteousness for instance. Righteousness denote a choice between two alternatives, the right and good being chose over the evil. Righteousness cannot be driven by compulsion any more than a rock can be moral in nature. If morality is to be predicated of anything, including but not limited to the righteous nature of God, contrary choice must exist as a possibility.




HP: That was indeed the case with Christ, for he was indeed tempted in ALL POINTS AS WE ARE (and how are we tempted?? When we are drawn away of our own lusts and enticed) yet He did not yield to those proclivities of the flesh and as such never sinned. Sinful desires do not constitute sin in and of themselves. Desires must be yielded to in order for sin to be conceived. Sin does not lie in the constitution of the flesh but rather in the will as we voluntarily yield to it. Listen to James once more and do not err.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


HP: If that was true from the moment of election forward, as logic would demand if I were to accept what you have stated so far as the truth, it would be absurd to punish man for something absolutely unavoidable, and wickedly absurd to punish man in an eternal literal hell for an unavoidable fate such as you describe.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here we have the logic of DW concerning a man before the throne of God in judgment. As he looks at God he exclaims: And you are going to sentence me to an eternal hell for something I have never been able to avoid due to my limitations as a man born sinful from birth, driven by the compulsion of my nature that was impossible to overcome. Here I am, a sinner from before ever doing evil or good, not being one of those elected to salvation. You God, have withheld from me, from before I ever did evil or good, the very election without which salvation was an impossibility even to conceive of, from the moment election to salvation was conceived forward. You say you are a God of justice, but how can justice punish one in an eternal hell for a fate that was absolutely impossible to overcome in light of your election of only some to salvation, I of one must not have been?? God, you are punishing me for doing something you yourself could not do, i.e., overcome necessitated fate, and again that before I ever in reality existed as a human, before I ever even had the possibility of my first choice and long before I ever did evil or good! Even you God cannot overcome necessitated fate and certainly know that it is an absolute impossibility for one driven by a compulsive nature to act contrary to it. You should know that being driven by your own compulsion, at least according to DW.

Oh yes DW, we do and we will look carefully at the Word of God and how you are twisting it to fit your philosophical notions as have been duly noted, all in good time. :thumbs:

 

[Dr. Walter]

You have not been able to answer the scriptures you asked for - so you philosophize using distortions of my position.

You cannot answer the Biblical use of "IMPOSSIBLE" for the MORAL nature of God and lying is a MORAL issue - so you philosophize again implementing complete distortions of my position.

The Bible is no friend of yours as you have no use for it as it says the very opposite of what your philsophizing invalid logic asserts. It is plain to see that God's thoughts are not your thoughts as you ridicule His Word - the Word you have not yet been able to respond to - so you philosphize and create arguments based on what you know is a complete distortion of my views.

Here we have the logic of DW concerning a man before the throne of God in judgment. As he looks at God he exclaims: And you are going to sentence me to an eternal hell for something I have never been able to avoid due to my limitations as a man born sinful from birth, driven by the compulsion of my nature that was impossible to overcome. Here I am, a sinner from before ever doing evil or good, not being one of those elected to salvation. You God, have withheld from me, from before I ever did evil or good, the very election without which salvation was an impossibility even to conceive of, from the moment election to salvation was conceived forward. You say you are a God of justice, but how can justice punish one in an eternal hell for a fate that was absolutely impossible to overcome in light of your election of only some to salvation, I of one must not have been?? God, you are punishing me for doing something you yourself could not do, i.e., overcome necessitated fate, and again that before I ever in reality existed as a human, before I ever even had the possibility of my first choice and long before I ever did evil or good! Even you god cannot overcome necessitated fate and certainly know that it is an absolute impossibility for one driven by a compulsive nature to act contrary to it. You should know that being driven by your own compulsion, at least according to DW.

Oh yes DW, we do and we will look carefully at the Word of God and how you are twisting it to fit your philosophical notions as have been duly noted, all in good time. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

• DW: If God is working "ALL THINGS" for good - that is ultimate good
  
  Rom. 8:28 And we know [except HP] that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

HP: To twist this verse into concluding that if one sins that is going to work for the ultimate good of God, such a one is simply deceived. This verse does NOT state or imply that sin is working for the good of God period. If sin was working for the ultimate good of God, God would be defeating His own Good by stopping sin, something absurd to consider.

DW: 2. If God works "ALL THINGS after his counsel of His own Will" then it is for ultimate good:

Eph. 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

HP: Sin is not something God is the first cause of neither is sin the results of His righteous and Holy counsel. One would have to stand this verse on it’s head in order to conclude sin is working for the good of God. Sin works against God and His will, not in accordance to it.

DW: 3. If he restrains all wrath that will not praise him - then He is working all things for utlimate good.

Psa 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

HP: Certainly God can and does even now restrain evil for His ultimate good. This does not add one bit of credence to the ideas DW has set forth. Why he would bring up this verse for the topic at hand is beyond me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: You have not been able to answer the scriptures you asked for - so you philosophize using distortions of my position.

HP: You are about the picture of impatience DW.

DW: You cannot answer the Biblical use of "IMPOSSIBLE" for the MORAL nature of God and lying is a MORAL issue - so you philosophize again implementing complete distortions of my position.

HP: You set forth so many philosophical notions unfounded in the Word of God it takes some time to get to all of them. Be patient.
:thumbs:

DW: The Bible is no friend of yours as you have no use for it as it says the very opposite of what your philsophizing invalid logic asserts. It is plain to see that God's thoughts are not your thoughts as you ridicule His Word - the Word you have not yet been able to respond to - so you philosphize and create arguments based on what you know is a complete distortion of my views.

HP: No one has set forth more philosophy and philosophical notions than yourself DW. You have said so many contradictory things, like I agree with Steaver but I really disagreed with him etc. etc. that God knows full well why one has a hard time trying to keep the 'impossible to keep straight,' straight. Your theology and comments are a maelstrom of confusion. The rest of your paragraph is not only untrue, but a lie. Sorry, but that is the only way I can describe what you said in your personal attacks. I have responded and will continue to respond to your Scriptures and ideas as I feel lead an am able. You are not God by the way. He will be the final judge as to who is in accordance to His Word in the end. Your false judgments as to my thoughts not being God’s thoughts are duly noted.

You know something DW, I believe I am beginning to understand you by your personal attacks very well.

 

[quantumfaith]

HP: My position is that God has the power of contrary choice, the 'possibility' exits He could choose other than He does, but simply never exercises such power nor does He, or will He ever, choose to act in a manner contrary to holiness. Your position has God creating powers for sentient beings that He Himself does not have, an absurd deduction IMHO.

Excellent and clever point well articulated!!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thanks QF. I am not trying to be clever, but I am interested in the truth. The absurdity of a God creating man in His own image, but creating him with powers that even God Himself does not possess (nor could he driven by compulsion which in reality eliminates any possibility of choosing between two or more alternatives for anything) is simply a failure to exercise reason and wisdom in ones conclusions, philosophically or theologically thinking. When one eliminates the very ‘possibility’ of contrary choice, morality, for God, man, or any other sentient being, becomes an absolute chimera. All becomes merely necessitated or coerced. Compulsion becomes god and all responsibility centers in it.

 

[quantumfaith]

Thanks QF. I am not trying to be clever, but I am interested in the truth. The absurdity of a God creating man in His own image, but creating him with powers that even God Himself does not possess (nor could he driven by compulsion which in reality eliminates any possibility of choosing between two or more alternatives for anything) is simply a failure to exercise reason and wisdom in ones conclusions, philosophically or theologically thinking. When one eliminates the very ‘possibility’ of contrary choice, morality, for God, man, or any other sentient being, becomes an absolute chimera. All becomes merely necessitated or coerced. Compulsion becomes god.

I am still attempting to "wrap my neurons" around this "compulsion" thing. I once made the same argument that you made earlier that God can in fact "choose" to do otherwise if for no other reason that He is God. But we have the confidence in Him and His Word that he is "I AM" and will never act outside of His revelation to us. I got no where in my

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

QF: But we have the confidence in Him and His Word that he is "I AM" and will never act outside of His revelation to us.

HP: By faith in God's Word I believe that is in fact true. He is faithful and will always choose to do the Just, Righteous and Holy things. Yet if we eliminate the ‘possibility' of contrary choice from our thinking, all again becomes necessitated, the determined results of mere compulsion. Love is not driven by compulsion, with God or with man. God is love, not compulsion.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Concerning the notion of the word 'impossible' in Scripture dealing with issues involving moral beings or dealing with morality, it means totally and completely unwilling, and does not indicate or eliminate the 'possibility of contrary choice. The same goes for the word 'cannot.' 'Cannot' does not mean (again in the realm of morality) it is outside of the realm of possibilities, but rather it lies outside of the realm of ones will in relationship to it's chosen intents.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Concerning the notion of the word 'impossible' in Scripture dealing with issues involving moral beings or dealing with morality, it means totally and completely unwilling, and does not indicate or eliminate the 'possibility of contrary choice. The same goes for the word 'cannot.' 'Cannot' does not mean (again in the realm of morality) it is outside of the realm of possibilities, but rather it lies outside of the realm of ones will in relationship to it's chosen intents.

And so there are no words that can possibly contradict what you believe because you made "impossible" mean "possible" and "cannot" mean "can"! Wow! Now that is the only way to go! Just make words mean their opposite whenever your in a jam. You have absolutely no respect for God or His Word.

The Greek term translated "impossible" is "adunatos" and it means "without POWER." The Greek term translated "neither...can" in Romans 8:7 is the negative with the same word "dunameis" or NO POWER!

Sorry, but you need to back to philosophizing as your Biblical knowledge is zip, nada, zilch.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: Sorry, but you need to back to philosophizing as your Biblical knowledge is zip, nada, zilch.

HP: You are acting in an arrogant and childish fashion DW, adding precious little to meaningful debate. One can certainly tell when you are running low on meaningful input. :thumbs:

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: You are acting in an arrogant and childish fashion DW, adding precious little to meaningful debate. One can certainly tell when you are running low on meaningful input. :thumbs:

You want to talk about pure ignorance? Anyone who says that "impossible" means possible and "can not" means "can" is ignorant of the English language. Anyone who perists in such ignorance when the Greek languague behind the English wors "impossible" mean WITHOUT ABILITY and "can not" means "NO ABILITY" that is a manifest demonstration of pure ignorance on display. You make up the rules as you go. Discussion with such a twisted mind is futile.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: You want to talk about pure ignorance? Anyone who says that "impossible" means possible and "can not" means "can" is ignorant of the English language.

HP: Here is a passage for DW to wax eloquent concerning. :thumbs: 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

By the way, have you been considering the blind man, and it being 'imposssible' for such a one to see?????

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: Here is a passage for DW to wax eloquent concerning. :thumbs: 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

By the way, have you been considering the blind man, and it being 'imposssible' for such a one to see?????

I have thoroughly debunked your "blind man" analogy on two other threads - go read them.


What is born of God cannot sin because it is created in true holiness and righteousness (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). What is born of the Spirit "is spirit" (Jn. 3:6) or the "inward man" or "new man" that delights in the Law of God (Rom. 7:19). It is the work of God and "new creature" that is "created in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10).

He is not talking about your physical body as your body was never born of God! He is talking about something inside of you that is spiritual which is at war with something else in side of you (Rom. 7:25). He is talking about an "incorruptable seed" (I Pet. 2:22-25). He is talking about what aspect of your human nature (obviously not your body) that has been born of God.

However, the more important issue here is that you choose to deal with one scripture by pitting another scripture against it. You choose a scripture that has nothing contextually to do with the texts we are discussing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: I have thoroughly debunked your "blind man" analogy on two other threads - go read them.

HP: Possibly, in your own blinded eyes that is.

DW: What is born of God cannot sin because it is created in true holiness and righteousness (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). What is born of the Spirit "is spirit" (Jn. 3:6) or the "inward man" or "new man" that delights in the Law of God (Rom. 7:19). It is the work of God and "new creature" that is "created in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10).

HP; Now let the reader follow the maelstrom of Calvinism demonstrated by DW as he responds to my next questions. Here he says one born again cannot sin because they are ‘created in true holiness and righteousness.’ Now for my question: DW, are you saying that Chrsitians never sin????? Are you saying you as a believer have never sinned??? Are you saying that it is impossible for you to sin???? Go ahead and tell us that one can be, and not be, a sinner at one and the same time.
(Here goes the false unfounded Calvinisitc notion that if a believer sins he does not in the spirit, but only in the flesh. )

Here are two Scriptures that debunk and refute such unscriptural false assertions.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Tell me HP, can you identify with Paul in Romans 7:18-25 and especially verse 25? Or do you believe that was the lost unregenerate Paul? Can you identify with Paul's words in Gal. 5:16-17 or do you think that is a lost man?

How about you QF? Can you identify with either of these passages in your current Christian state?

HP; Now let the reader follow the maelstrom of Calvinism demonstrated by DW as he responds to my next questions. Here he says one born again cannot sin because they are ‘created in true holiness and righteousness.’ Now for my question: DW, are you saying that Chrsitians never sin????? Are you saying you as a believer have never sinned??? Are you saying that it is impossible for you to sin???? Go ahead and tell us that one can be, and not be, a sinner at one and the same time. [/FONT][/COLOR]
(Here goes the false unfounded Calvinisitc notion that if a believer sins he does not in the spirit, but only in the flesh. )

Here are two Scriptures that debunk and refute such unscriptural false assertions.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.