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The greatest error on bb
- Thread starter Luke2427
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I have answered that question at least twice now.
You can do better than that.
Yes and no. I know that does not sound correct, but it is an honest answer. I believe that God appeared to Abraham in a limited form. God must appear in a limited form to man or a man would drop dead on the spot. In this limited form God was like a man, he ate food (Abraham fed him), got dirty, tired, etc... In this form God is not omniscient.
At the same moment, God is in heaven and is absolutely aware of everything going on.
I can't explain this, but this is what I believe the scriptures show.
Foolish question. God can do anything he desires to do. scripture says so;
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
To you that isn't logical because you must not believe God is all powerful. There fore you do not believe God's Word. Now (as usual) you will try to make that verse say something else that it clearly does not say. This is why I first posted because what is true and what is logical to you does not seem to be the same things.
MB
I rest my case.
You say here "Yes God knew beforehand and NO God did not know beforehand."
You abandon logic COMPLETELY.
So there is no point talking to someone who abandons logic.
It is like nailing Jello to the wall.
They who abandon logic are fluid and can bend and twist any way they like and cannot be pinned down to any one consistent viewpoint.
That is the advantage of the debater unburdening himself of the restraints of logic.
But the disadvantage is that neither can one who does so be taken even REMOTELY seriously and intelligent people will eventually stop trying to converse with him.
That's you, Winamn.
Luke, you and I have interacted before with the same, lamentable rhetoric from you. This above reply is evidence that you haven't moved much in your study of these theological issues. Your other posts reinforce this observation.
Perhaps most pointedly I would say that you are making an unnecessary, and dangerous, dualism that is foisted up on its own weak argumentative stance that one is either Calvinistic or non-Calvinistic. This is a dangerously myopic position.
Also, you are mischaracterizing and limiting opposition to your position. I'd encourage you to go and read up on the modalist position (ala WM Lane Craig, Plantinga) and see where this heads.
Please note my points on why these debates always end up mired in confusion and then see how you are talking past others and mischaracterizing their positions.
One can readily affirm God's sovereignty while also noting that He has given mankind free moral agency.
There should be something to be said about God's middle knowledge too, but we'll see if we get there.
I cannot see a point in what you say here other than to try to be insulting.
The problem is that people do not care about logic.
God can be Sovereign and not sovereign at the same time.
God can know all things and not know all things at the same time.
one might as well say god can exist and not exist all at the same time.
It is madness.
You're thinking too dualistically.
It happens to all of us. For too many of us, at some point or another, we have been molded to think everything is either black or white, a or b, when in fact there is an entire spectrum of options. (There are, of course, some things that can be understood as one or the other i.e. the resurrection of Jesus.)
See you immediately post above this, it is rife with dualism (I don't use rife in an insulting manner.) There are other options than either/or.
To see theological options as a spectrum is not to suddenly embrace universalism or liberalism. Instead it is to do appropriate theological triage we see more spectrum is available as we understand things less foundationally and more doctrinally.
Dualism often leads to legalism which inhibits conversation.
It happens to all of us. For too many of us, at some point or another, we have been molded to think everything is either black or white, a or b, when in fact there is an entire spectrum of options. (There are, of course, some things that can be understood as one or the other i.e. the resurrection of Jesus.)
See you immediately post above this, it is rife with dualism (I don't use rife in an insulting manner.) There are other options than either/or.
To see theological options as a spectrum is not to suddenly embrace universalism or liberalism. Instead it is to do appropriate theological triage we see more spectrum is available as we understand things less foundationally and more doctrinally.
Dualism often leads to legalism which inhibits conversation.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Scripture shows nothing that even "imitates" the above as my mother in law would say. If your illogical reasoning were true we could not say that Jesus Christ was both God and man. God is omniscient, always is, and always will be.
You're thinking too dualistically.
It happens to all of us. For too many of us, at some point or another, we have been molded to think everything is either black or white, a or b, when in fact there is an entire spectrum of options. (There are, of course, some things that can be understood as one or the other i.e. the resurrection of Jesus.)
See you immediately post above this, it is rife with dualism (I don't use rife in an insulting manner.) There are other options than either/or.
To see theological options as a spectrum is not to suddenly embrace universalism or liberalism. Instead it is to do appropriate theological triage we see more spectrum is available as we understand things less foundationally and more doctrinally.
Dualism often leads to legalism which inhibits conversation.
You have made a claim. I commend you.
but debate is more than making a claim.
It is also supporting that claim.
You must demonstrate HOW I am doing what you claim in order for us to really be conversing.
Then you must present your alternative so that I may in turn scrutinize it in the same way you scrutinize my point.
This is debate.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
"God cannot...."
No, God can...
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As MB pointed out, "With God ALL things are possible," therefore "God can..."
As I answered you previously, Luke, God does not do anything that is against His nature or His Word. But for some reason that answer was not sufficient enough for you.
No, God can...
----
As MB pointed out, "With God ALL things are possible," therefore "God can..."
As I answered you previously, Luke, God does not do anything that is against His nature or His Word. But for some reason that answer was not sufficient enough for you.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Luke
Very interesting OP. I believe you have stirred up a hornets nest [snipped - insulting]
Very interesting OP. I believe you have stirred up a hornets nest [snipped - insulting]
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Thank you.
Calvinism (or whatever label is most comfortable) is burdened with logic.
We don't get to do what "non-cals" often do- say something is one thing and not that thing at the same time.
So we can be nailed to the wall.
They cannot. they are formless and shapeless- they are liquid.
But anybody who contends A can be A and not be A at the same time CANNOT be taken seriously by any truly thoughtful person.
And we cannot help them.
so long as they toss logic out the door there is not a thing in the world we can do. This is because they cannot be pinned down.
But what is dangerous is that in tossing out logic they blaspheme.
They don't mean to but they undermine God.
God is truth- solid immovable non-contradictory truth.
When you remove this you undermine everything that God ultimately is.
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And yet Jesus himself said he did not know the exact time he would return.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Jesus is God, but he did not know the day and hour he would return.
Do you Reformed/Calvinists even study the Bible? Or do you spend all your time trying to prove to yourselves your doctrine is true?
saturneptune
New Member
I agree with you to a point, and this sort of crosses the thread on God limiting Himself. You are correct, out of God comes order, logic, harmony, perfection, love, righteousness, and many other attributes.
Focusing on logic, God is totally logical. Some of the things He ordains (that would be everything that happens in His Creation) escape our logic, but we do not now nor will we in this life understand the deepest secrets of the Lord. We know the character of the Lord that He has chosen to reveal to us through Scripture. As Paul says, we see things through a blurry glass.
God is not a God of disorder, confusion, chaos, hatred, divisiveness, etc. If we perceive it that way, it is because we do not understand Him.
God is the mover and shaker of the universe. Every breath we take, every action and reaction in the universe is ordained by the Lord. He is a God of perfect order, whether we see it or not.
We cannot imagine the depths of the mysteries of God, and it ought to humble everyone of us. The riches of the knowledge of the Lord is so far above us, it is ridiculous to conjecture the subject beyond what He has revealed to us.
And you are right about the label, Doctrines of Grace and Soverignty is the only name I use. I despise the other one.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
1 Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
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