The Heart Of The Gospel

[Ben1445]

Matthew Chapter 16

16​	And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17​	And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

@Silverhair, @Ben1445: We're different, we figure it out on our own. Don't need to have it revealed to us.

Nobody said that it is not revealed to us. I think it is revealed to all men and rejected by most as Scripture says.
If you would listen to what people say instead of pretending that they said something else, it would be easier to talk to you and have a conversation.

 

[Ben1445]

There are five INDIVIDUALS noted in the scriptures that Christ 'loved', and RYR was one of them.

So God loves sinners who turn away from Him anyway. He was told to follow Christ and he resisted God’s will.
This is what I have been saying all along.

Calvinists answer: “I think he prayed the sinners prayer before he died because Jesus only loves the people He saves. So something must have happened that fits my doctrine.”

 

[Ben1445]

@kyredneck the only thing I get out of talking to you is that you believe in two unrelated salvations. One salvation for the present life and one for eternal life. Since the Kingdom of God is in this world and not of this world, I disagree with your separation of the two. It is our present selves that will see God. I know that in my flesh I will see God. I don’t know where you get your doctrine exactly.

 

[David Lamb]

So God loves sinners who turn away from Him anyway. He was told to follow Christ and he resisted God’s will.
This is what I have been saying all along.

Calvinists answer: “I think he prayed the sinners prayer before he died because Jesus only loves the people He saves. So something must have happened that fits my doctrine.”

I have never read or heard of a person who believes Calvinistic doctrine talk about "praying the sinner's prayer." The idea of "praying the sinner's prayer" seems to have originated with Charles Finney, who wasn't a Calvinist be any stretch of the imagination.

 

[kyredneck]

@kyredneck the only thing I get out of talking to you is that you believe in two unrelated salvations.

TWO ASPECTS of our salvation, the eternal, in which we are totally passive (names written in heaven, being made alive from the dead, Christ dying for us, justifying us, reconciling us. etc,. to name just a few), and the temporal, in which we are active in exercising our GOD-GIVEN FAITH in obedience to the gospel through which there is GREAT DELIVERANCE for us in the here and now.

 

[Ben1445]

I have never read or heard of a person who believes Calvinistic doctrine talk about "praying the sinner's prayer." The idea of "praying the sinner's prayer" seems to have originated with Charles Finney, who wasn't a Calvinist be any stretch of the imagination.

Now, for about thirty seconds we’re in agreement, until my Calvinist company forgets what I think about easy believism.

 

[David Lamb]

Now, for about thirty seconds we’re in agreement, until my Calvinist company forgets what I think about easy believism.

Not sure what you are saying. Do you mean that you agree with easy believism? And what do you mean by "my Calvinist company"? Sorry not to be able to grasp what you mean.

 

[Ben1445]

You and every other free-willer I know blithely, without thought, always applies an eternal sense to 'sozo' - saved.

TWO ASPECTS of our salvation, the eternal, in which we are totally passive (names written in heaven, being made alive from the dead, Christ dying for us, justifying us, reconciling us. etc,. to name just a few), and the temporal, in which we are active in exercising our GOD-GIVEN faith in obedience to the gospel through which there is GREAT DELIVERANCE for us in the here and now.

So now you blithely apply an eternal aspect to salvation but I am not allowed to??

And why would the eternal aspect be any different than the here and now?

having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

At some point in anyone’s realization, they must understand that everything that they have and are able to do is a gift from God. What have we put our GOD-GIVEN faith into is our own ability. There are many people who have faith in themselves and their works. Are you suggesting that they have the ability to create that faith. Is not faith a character that must be used rightly? If used incorrectly is it become something else?

 

[Ben1445]

Not sure what you are saying. Do you mean that you agree with easy believism? And what do you mean by "my Calvinist company"? Sorry not to be able to grasp what you mean.

I am in company with you, “my Calvinist friends,” as my wife calls you. I do also. And I don’t mean anything by it except what it exactly says. I count you my friends and you are Calvinists.
If you read the first post that I mentioned it in (maybe it is just the way I read it) I thought it was pretty clear from that and what else I have said that I don’t agree with easy believism. This is not to say that I think salvation is difficult for man to obtain. Jesus Christ did all the work. The difficulties lie in man’s unwillingness to give up his sin and be covered by the blood. I will never understand why people know what Jesus did for them and decide that they like their sin more. It doesn’t matter how many times @kyredneck asks why some believe and some don’t. I will never know what is in the heart of a man because I am not that man.
I have many times been told that they don’t want to give up their sin. But in the Calvinist determinist view, shame on them for taking the credit for deciding to remain in sin. God put them there and they should glorify God for choosing them to everlasting torment.

 

[David Lamb]

I am in company with you, “my Calvinist friends,” as my wife calls you. I do also. And I don’t mean anything by it except what it exactly says. I count you my friends and you are Calvinists.
If you read the first post that I mentioned it in (maybe it is just the way I read it) I thought it was pretty clear from that and what else I have said that I don’t agree with easy believism. This is not to say that I think salvation is difficult for man to obtain. Jesus Christ did all the work. The difficulties lie in man’s unwillingness to give up his sin and be covered by the blood. I will never understand why people know what Jesus did for them and decide that they like their sin more. It doesn’t matter how many times @kyredneck asks why some believe and some don’t. I will never know what is in the heart of a man because I am not that man.
I have many times been told that they don’t want to give up their sin. But in the Calvinist determinist view, shame on them for taking the credit for deciding to remain in sin. God put them there and they should glorify God for choosing them to everlasting torment.

Thanks - that makes it clearer. I apologise again for not understanding you first time.

 

[Ben1445]

Thanks - that makes it clearer. I apologise again for not understanding you first time.

No problem. I’m happy to clarify it if you require. English is occasionally confusing and when people often add sarcasm (which I am occasionally guilty of) it makes the whole matter more confusing in disagreements where we already think what people are saying is wrong.
I’d rather clarify than have think I mean something that I don’t. Especially on easy believism.

 

[kyredneck]

you are Calvinist

I'm not. You just have 'Calvinist on the brain'.

I don’t agree with easy believism

I agree with my old BB friend, HankD: "Believing in Christ is the easiest thing I've ever done".

@kyredneck asks why some believe and some don’t. I will never know

Answered here.

I have many times been told that they don’t want to give up their sin.

Applies to believers and unbelievers alike. "Wretched man that I am!"

But in the Calvinist determinist view, shame on them for taking the credit for deciding to remain in sin. God put them there and they should glorify God for choosing them to everlasting torment.

This is an awful, vitriolic misrepresentation, perhaps even a dog-faced lie. You've been hanging with @Silverhair too much.

 

[Ben1445]

I'm not. You just have 'Calvinist on the brain'.



I agree with my old BB friend, HankD: "Believing in Christ is the easiest thing I've ever done".



Answered here.



Applies to believers and unbelievers alike. "Wretched man that I am!"



This is an awful, vitriolic misrepresentation, perhaps even a dog-faced lie. You've been hanging with @Silverhair too much.

Why do you care? You said you are not a Calvinist?

 

[Silverhair]

I have never read or heard of a person who believes Calvinistic doctrine talk about "praying the sinner's prayer." The idea of "praying the sinner's prayer" seems to have originated with Charles Finney, who wasn't a Calvinist be any stretch of the imagination.

Actually the idea of a sinners pray goes back just a bit more than that. Paul suggested that here

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

and here

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

and here

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Even in the OT we can see this

Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

and again here

Jer 17:7 "Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD And whose trust is the LORD.

So you can see that it is not something new but what we do see as a new idea is what comes from Augustine and Calvin that man has nothing to do with his salvation. You were either picked out B4 creation or you are lost. This view is called divine determinism and has been codified in the DoG/TULIP.

 

[David Lamb]

Actually the idea of a sinners pray goes back just a bit more than that. Paul suggested that here

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

and here

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

But those words are not a prayer.

and here

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Even in the OT we can see this

Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

and again here

Jer 17:7 "Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD And whose trust is the LORD.

So you can see that it is not something new but what we do see as a new idea is what comes from Augustine and Calvin that man has nothing to do with his salvation. You were either picked out B4 creation or you are lost. This view is called divine determinism and has been codified in the DoG/TULIP.

None of the verses you quote even mention prayer.

 

[Silverhair]

But those words are not a prayer.

None of the verses you quote even mention prayer.

David what do you think calling out to God is if not a prayer? In Rom 10:9-10 what do you think confessing faith in Christ is if not a prayer? Explain Eph 1:13 not being a prayer?

If it does not have the exact words it does not mean that the text indicates,is that what you are saying David?

That is just desperation on your part.

Only God can save a person and He has chosen to save those that will freely trust in His risen son. Those that turn to Him, call on Him, confess Him will be saved.

Why those of the C/R view have such a hard time accepting what the bible says is a mystery to me.

It seems you are more willing to believe what Augustine / Calvin and those that preach their views say than the word of God.

 

[KenH]

If anything, you are beguiling people by demanding a specific understanding of justification, imputation, and sanctification in order to be saved.

I am not saying that those God chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety have to be walking encyclopedias of theology before the Holy Spirit regenerates them under the hearing of the gospel of God's grace in Christ Jesus; but those who sit under sound gospel preaching will hear about God justifying the ungodly(Romans 4:5), about the sins of God's elect being imputed to Christ, about Christ's perfect righteousness being imputed to God's elect, about God perfecting forever by Christ's one sacrifice those whom He sanctified.

God's elect, after regeneration, will "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 3:18)


I would also point anyone reading this post to these verses for their further study:

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 4:6-8
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jude 1:1 To them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

 

[David Lamb]

David what do you think calling out to God is if not a prayer? In Rom 10:9-10 what do you think confessing faith in Christ is if not a prayer? Explain Eph 1:13 not being a prayer?

If it does not have the exact words it does not mean that the text indicates,is that what you are saying David?

That is just desperation on your part.

Only God can save a person and He has chosen to save those that will freely trust in His risen son. Those that turn to Him, call on Him, confess Him will be saved.

Why those of the C/R view have such a hard time accepting what the bible says is a mystery to me.

It seems you are more willing to believe what Augustine / Calvin and those that preach their views say than the word of God.

Yes, calling out to God is prayer. However, was the Ethiopian calling out to God when he said to Philip:

“I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”” (Ac 8:37 NKJV)

No, he was replying to Philip. Was he confessing the Lord Jesus Christ? Certainly.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, calling out to God is prayer. However, was the Ethiopian calling out to God when he said to Philip:

“I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”” (Ac 8:37 NKJV)

No, he was replying to Philip. Was he confessing the Lord Jesus Christ? Certainly.

So then what do you think it means in Eph 1:13 and Rom 10:9-10.

Is that confessing [prayer] Christ or what? Are there a special set of words that someone must say for it to be considered a confession of faith prayer?

Although this verse is not found in the best manuscripts lets look at what Philip said and what the Ethiopian said.

And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may."
And he [the Ethiopian] answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Is that a confession of faith in Christ Jesus? Would God have heard him? Of course.

What is the "believers prayer" but their confession of faith in Christ Jesus.

Further who knows what will prompt a person to trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation.

 

[David Lamb]

So then what do you think it means in Eph 1:13 and Rom 10:9-10.

Is that confessing [prayer] Christ or what? Are there a special set of words that someone must say for it to be considered a confession of faith prayer?

Although this verse is not found in the best manuscripts lets look at what Philip said and what the Ethiopian said.

And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may."
And he [the Ethiopian] answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Is that a confession of faith in Christ Jesus? Would God have heard him? Of course.

What is the "believers prayer" but their confession of faith in Christ Jesus.

Further who knows what will prompt a person to trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation.

Let me clarify first of all that I did not say that it isn't possible to confess that Jesus is Lord in prayer. What I meant was that confessing Jesus Christ as Lord does not happen only in prayer. It happens when giving one's testimony. It happened when the Ethiopian answered Philip. And yes, as you say, God would have heard him, but we're not told that he (the Ethiopian) was praying, but that he was responding to Philip'. So the matter of confessing Jesus as Lord is not a biblical basis for what has become known as "the sinners prayer."