The Heavens and Earth: Matt. 5:18 in Covenant Context

[tyndale1946]

Most certainly. And this attitude has really polluted the witness of Christianity in the eyes of the world. It translates all too often into an Israel-can-do-no-wrong mindset. This is partly why the wretched modern Israel feels emboldened to continue their ongoing genocide against the Palestinians. This is why Israel has so many American politicians and our media in their pockets.

They seem to have forgotten Gal. 3:28

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus".

Then God did what only God could do... He took the word race and slapped a big G in front of it!... So a Jew is no longer one of race but of GRACE!... Brother Glen

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[AustinC]

Did that make any sense? If Preterism is false show me from Scripture.

We're not in the Kingdom and Jesus is not ruling this planet, therefore, preterism is false.

Now, show us why this is the new world and the eternal Kingdom is now present since you declare that Jesus returned in 70CE. Where is the rule of Christ on earth right now as the Bible says happens upon Christ's return.

Clearly this must be a preterists paradise right now.

 

[thomas15]

I want to know the identity of the antichrist:

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Seems simple enough.

 

[Alan Gross]

Quite a bit.

What's to discuss?
The Scriptures?

No, Tom.
It seems that you're not going to be persuaded of anything in that direction....
And I've already tried that many times now.

Do you even realize the ramifications of what it is that you're teaching, when you tell believers that everything that they look forward to has already happened?
I seriously doubt that you do.



I'll take my leave of your thread, and wish you well.

Me, too.

Give me scripture and "For the record, I don't believe it", is just a wasteland.

 

[asterisktom]

We're not in the Kingdom and Jesus is not ruling this planet, therefore, preterism is false.

Now, show us why this is the new world and the eternal Kingdom is now present since you declare that Jesus returned in 70CE. Where is the rule of Christ on earth right now as the Bible says happens upon Christ's return.

Clearly this must be a preterists paradise right now.

I am not going to bother. You have not responded to a single actual passage that I cited or offered one of your own that you think proves your point. This forum is called Baptist Theology and Bible Study. We can either compare verse with verse or we can just trade insults. Not interested in the latter.

 

[asterisktom]

I want to know the identity of the antichrist:

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Seems simple enough.

Thank you for quoting scripture, Thomas. First of all the Bible does not explicitly state there is an Antichrist (singular). According to John this may have been a confusion already in his time:

18, Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19, They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Notice that not only John correct a misunderstanding but that he also uses the present tense. The presence of many antichrists show that, at the time of this writing, AD 61-62, it was already "the last hour" (YLT).

BTW, a side note. According to some we have been in the last days - and last hour - for almost 2 thousand years. Does that make sense? The whole period of the Jewish Dispensation, from Sinai to the 1st century AD is only 1,500 years.

The falling away is the apostasy of the Jews who had previously professed the faith. Their defection was not immediately apparent, just like tares among wheat are not immediately obvious. What made it the "last days" was a persistent and long-lasting turning away from the truth. And these lands, Judea and through much of the Diaspora, had great exposure to the Truth, Those finally settling down into a hatred for the New Wine were exactly the people these later epistles (John, Jude, Peter, Pastorals) are addressed to.

The Man of Sin possibly could be Nero. That would fit the description pretty well.He certainly was a moral mess. But his sinful life was fairly well hidden at first. This was partly because of the better influences of his mother and wife, and his teachers Seneca and Burrus. But after a few years the real Nero came out. In a few years he killed all these people. It might very well be that Seneca was the restrainer that he had in mind.

Another possibility (more likely, I think) is Eleazar Ben Ananias. He gained the ascendancy in the Temple when he killed his own father, Ananias of Acts 22. He would have been the restraining influence. Interestingly, Paul had said eight years earlier, "God is about to strike you, you whitewashed wall!" It was right after the death of the father that the son "went off on a nut". You can read all about it in Josephus.

 

[asterisktom]

Me, too.

Give me scripture and "For the record, I don't believe it", is just a wasteland.

Unlike you, Dave G at least provided Scripture.

 

[AustinC]

I am not going to bother. You have not responded to a single actual passage that I cited or offered one of your own that you think proves your point. This forum is called Baptist Theology and Bible Study. We can either compare verse with verse or we can just trade insults. Not interested in the latter.

You don't bother because preterism cannot answer how it is we live in a world of sin in need of redemption if Jesus has already returned, burned the earth in the same fashion he destroyed by water and established his Kingdom on earth.
Instead, you'll stake your claim on 70CE no matter the evidence that life just kept on in wickedness and the saints blood is still being spilled. The blood of Abel still cries out.

 

[asterisktom]

You don't bother because preterism cannot answer how it is we live in a world of sin in need of redemption if Jesus has already returned, burned the earth in the same fashion he destroyed by water and established his Kingdom on earth.
Instead, you'll stake your claim on 70CE no matter the evidence that life just kept on in wickedness and the saints blood is still being spilled. The blood of Abel still cries out.

No, Austin, I don't bother because we would just be trading insults. You have zero Scripture in all of your posts to me. I have been answering others here because, to their credit, they are engaging with Scripture. You are look like Alan and a few others who bring nothing to the table.

I held out hope that you would give me something to work with but I think I will just ignore you from now on.

 

[tyndale1946]

No, Austin, I don't bother because we would just be trading insults. You have zero Scripture in all of your posts to me. I have been answering others here because, to their credit, they are engaging with Scripture. You are look like Alan and a few others who bring nothing to the table.

I held out hope that you would give me something to work with but I think I will just ignore you from now on.

Is the church the body of believers the Kingdom?... It has a King doesn't it?... It has subjects to the King doesn't it?... It has laws (the Bible) that govern the Kingdom doesn't it?... And Jesus Christ is reigning in my church and life, is he reigning in yours?... The Kingdom is NOW!... The Kingdom is HERE!... Its a militant Kingdom, here on earth separate from the triumphant Kingdom yet to come!... Where ALL us brethren WILL dwell together in UNITY for ETERNITY!... Brother Glen

 

[timtofly]

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled". - Matthew 5:18

We bring so much of our own worldview into Scripture that we have a hard time understanding Bible terminology. And many churches today do not help the situation. They are New Testament churches - in the worst sense. They teach the New Testament as a stand-alone revelation, disconnected from the foundational background that gives meaning to much of the New Testament.

Case in point is the "heaven and the earth". No, "heaven and earth" do not exist today. Not the "heaven and earth" that Jesus was speaking about in Matt. 5:18. Those heavens and earth refer to the Jewish dispensation.

"The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have
rebelled against Me;" - Isaiah 1:1-2

Now, is God speaking to all of the Earth here? Is He speaking to the heavens? No. He is speaking to Israel; according to context, to "Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah".

"But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared; The LORD of hosts is His name. And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You
are My people.'" - Isaiah 51:15-16

When did God create the Heavens and Earth? According to this passage it was after He divided the Red Sea. Notice the tenses - "That I may plant..." No, I am not denying the physical creation as described in Genesis 1, but that is not the topic here. And - once again, focusing on this passage in Isaiah - what were the
accompanying results?

1. The planting of the heavens,
2. The laying of the foundations of the earth, and
3. The saying to Zion, "You are My people".

It is this "heavens and earth" Jesus is referring to in Matt. 5:18.

Peter, writing three decades later, but still before the Parousia, describes this same heavens and earth:

"But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter. 3:7

Peter is looking forward to the time that Isaiah had written of:

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." - Isaiah 65:17

Peter looked forward to an event that we now look back on. An event whose present reality we are blessed with. But once again, most have a hard time appreciating the context of Christ's, Peter's, and Isaiah's words because we are so attuned to our own understanding of the phrase "heavens and earth", not the Scriptural intent.

The creation of the heavens and earth are in contrast to, not Israel. Is Joseph supposed to be the earth, while the rest were the heavens, because Joseph's dream and Revelation 12 are more symbolically to your point, than these verses. In Genesis 1, the waves roared and the waters were divided. Still not the parting of the Red Sea. What verse claims the Red Sea has roaring waves?

Peter was talking about the heavens and earth just coming through the Flood

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Sorry, but the heavens and earth did not go through the fire in 70AD in the similar fashion as Noah's Flood. Verse 5 is about Genesis 1, so same heavens and earth as in Genesis 1.

Here is the relationship to Israel: Exodus 20:8-11.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Heaven and earth stand in judgment against Israel. Any denying the Millennium will also have heaven and earth stand in judgment against them. We are to Remember the first Lord's Day, and look ahead to the future Lord's Day. At the end of the Lord's Day, then the end will come for the heavens and earth, and creation will no longer need to stand as a witness. There will be a new creation and a new witness.