The Heresy of Indifference

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes. But there is a ceiling on how high a friendship can go with an unbeliever. I just visited an unsaved friend in Langhorne, PA this past Monday. He is in rehab recovering from a serious illness. We are close. But for all our closeness he repeatedly rejects the Gospel. Our friendship can only go so far. We cannot mutually rejoice in our risen Savior. I have no hope that I will my friend in glory, unless God is merciful and gloriously saves him.

And that's where doctrine becomes important. Yesterday while sitting in traffic for 21/2 hrs I was blessed to hear ole RC do a sermon on Sola Gratia.....and he reinforced everything....and I mean everything I have come to believe. I told my wife last night that Sola Gratia is critical to my personal walk with my lord and RC did a great job explaining it and contrasting it to the false doctrines of Pelaginism. & Semi P. You know I stopped believing long ago due in part to My Catholic Peleganism and how it made me believe that God was....I felt it was inept and inconsequential. If it is to be it is up to me mentality....when all the time I knew I was broken and in sins power. Anyway Sproll did a great job laying it out. And see I could never go to a church who would invariably try to teach me otherwise. Like a recovering alcoholic, I enjoy my new found soberity....in this case my new found life in Christ to screw that up by going to a church that doesn't teach it.

 

[tyndale1946]

I won't reply to any poster but is not the Articles Of Faith your doctrine? The Articles Of Faith what they are called in my church are your doctrinal beliefs. It not that doctrine?... We know for a fact that doctrine was definitely important in the seven churches of Asia. Rev 2:6 Speaks of the doctrine of the Nicolaitans which Christ said he hated. Rev 2:14 Addresses the doctrine of Balaam of eating things sacrificed to idols and fornication. Rev 2:20 Addresses the worship of Jezebel who said she was a prophetess to teach and seduce his servants commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. It further states these were the depths of Satan. These were also doctrine. Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. Is doctrine important? Not only is doctrine important!.... IT IS CRUCIAL!... Brother Glen

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now I can also say that my brother goes to church partly because they serve to reinforce his Dyspy doctrines (which I of course view as secondary) ....he of course doesn't feel the same way. To him its all about getting sucked up into the stratusphere (sic) and not being left behind (LOL) . He could no more have fellowship with the likes of me as he could live on the moon. See I'm going to be left behind (by his doctrine) ...its a tragedy but there it is...I am persieved as not understanding ....probably as 'Rebellious ' to it. So that's what doctrine does for you....draw your own summations.

 

[Yeshua1]

Burk Parsons wrote a thought provoking intro for the May 2015 edition of Tabletalk Magazine:



In my Christian experience I have heard things like, "I don't want to know doctrine. I just want to know Jesus." The irony is that a person who says that is actually espousing doctrine! None of us can avoid doctrine. We may act indifferently to doctrine, but once again, that indifference is actually a doctrine; a teaching or a belief. The Scripture commands us to, "study to show yourself approved unto God" (2 Tim. 2:15). In other words, we are commanded to study doctrine.

Indifference also come about when the church refuses to address as heresies things such as modern WOF/prosperity, kingdom Now, modern day Apostles/prophets, Universalism, all religions lead to same god etc, all to show 'the love of Jesus"

 

[Reformed]

Now I can also say that my brother goes to church partly because they serve to reinforce his Dyspy doctrines (which I of course view as secondary) ....he of course doesn't feel the same way. To him its all about getting sucked up into the stratusphere (sic) and not being left behind (LOL) . He could no more have fellowship with the likes of me as he could live on the moon. See I'm going to be left behind (by his doctrine) ...its a tragedy but there it is...I am persieved as not understanding ....probably as 'Rebellious ' to it. So that's what doctrine does for you....draw your own summations.

You are focusing on the negative side of doctrine. There are going to be those who use doctrine to divide. Scripture tell us, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men" (Rom. 12:18). If a person wants to use doctrine as a weapon, so be it. I keep my distance from those people and leave them in God's hands. But I prefer to emphasize the positive aspect of sound doctrine. "But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine" (Titus 2:1).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You are focusing on the negative side of doctrine. There are going to be those who use doctrine to divide. Scripture tell us, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men" (Rom. 12:18). If a person wants to use doctrine as a weapon, so be it. I keep my distance from those people and leave them in God's hands. But I prefer to emphasize the positive aspect of sound doctrine. "But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine" (Titus 2:1).

It's hard not to when your own flesh & blood uses it as a dividing mechanism, hurts deeply in fact.

 

[Reformed]

It's hard not to when your own flesh & blood uses it as a dividing mechanism, hurts deeply in fact.

I am sure it does. Family issues are always the hardest to deal with. But this is also applicable at the local church level. Of course the local church has the ability to enforce church discipline in order to deal with erroneous doctrine. In relationships with other Christians, outside of the local church, there is always freedom of association. This works even in families. I have a family member that was always contentious when it came to theological discussions. In order to preserve peace in the family we agreed not to talk about theological matters. I will not say that we are particularly close, but at least it makes family gatherings easier to deal with.

 

[OldRegular]

Burk Parsons wrote a thought provoking intro for the May 2015 edition of Tabletalk Magazine:



In my Christian experience I have heard things like, "I don't want to know doctrine. I just want to know Jesus." The irony is that a person who says that is actually espousing doctrine! None of us can avoid doctrine. We may act indifferently to doctrine, but once again, that indifference is actually a doctrine; a teaching or a belief. The Scripture commands us to, "study to show yourself approved unto God" (2 Tim. 2:15). In other words, we are commanded to study doctrine.

Reminds me of something I wrote back in the mid to late 90's for a study of the Book of Revelation:

Every Christian is a theologian. He may not admit it, he may be unaware of it, nevertheless he is a theologian for the simple reason that he has thought about and developed some concept of the nature of God, hopefully based on careful study of the Bible. His theology may not be systematic or very sophisticated, in fact it may be very poor theology, but it exists. Similarly, every Christian has a theology, poor or otherwise, about the return of Jesus Christ.

Nevertheless, you are correct. Most "Christians" prefer to remain ignorant of doctrine.

 

[Darrell C]

Now I can also say that my brother goes to church partly because they serve to reinforce his Dyspy doctrines (which I of course view as secondary) ....he of course doesn't feel the same way. To him its all about getting sucked up into the stratusphere (sic) and not being left behind (LOL) . He could no more have fellowship with the likes of me as he could live on the moon. See I'm going to be left behind (by his doctrine) ...its a tragedy but there it is...I am persieved as not understanding ....probably as 'Rebellious ' to it. So that's what doctrine does for you....draw your own summations.

The charge that those who believe in the Rapture are so absorbed with it that they cannot see anything else is a false charge. I have yet to meet the person that fits the caricature often presented.

It may be that this issue comes up often with your friend, but can you see your disbelief in it as being a contributor to that? Or does he just blast you with the Rapture every time he sees you, and refuses to speak about anything else?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Nevertheless, you are correct. Most "Christians" prefer to remain ignorant of doctrine.

Most Christians? lol

You know what they say, ignorance is bliss. Some avoid examining their beliefs in detail because they would rather maintain error than admit that they are wrong about something.

It's a "Don't confuse me with the truth" mentality.

I think many Christians want to gain knowledge, the problem is that most rely on the teachings specific to their views, and will never enter into detailed discussion with others of differing views. When we do this we can test the caricatures we paint of others, which is often another tactic we might puff ourselves up with.

"I don't know what those guys believe but of course they're heretics because they don't believe my truth."


God bless.

 

[Rippon]

To call a godless world view a doctrine is not helpful.

Why not? Paul said there is such a thing as doctrines of demons. Godless doctrines are still doctrines.

We all have our belief system, whether close to the mark or way off track.

Yes indeed --belief system =doctrines.

No creed but Christ some Baptists of the past (and the present) declare. But that is impossible. Christ has to be fleshed-out. What does one believe about Christ. He is not an empty slate. Everyone has a creed, written or not. Everyone has their own doctrine.

Recall how the goats were separated, not because they were premillennials or Calvinists, but because they did not act on Christ's words.

Christ never knew them.

 

[Reformed]

The charge that those who believe in the Rapture are so absorbed with it that they cannot see anything else is a false charge. I have yet to meet the person that fits the caricature often presented.

It may be that this issue comes up often with your friend, but can you see your disbelief in it as being a contributor to that? Or does he just blast you with the Rapture every time he sees you, and refuses to speak about anything else?


God bless.

Brother, while not all dispensationalists may be consumed with their eschatology, there are individual dispensationalists who are. John Hagee cannot talk about anything other than his dispensationalism (and he does a good job of making a fool of himself). There is a danger whenever a person get out of balance in their theology.

 

[Reformed]

No creed but Christ some Baptists of the past (and the present) declare.

I call these "red letter" Christians. Some of them will carry their "no creed but Christ" dictum so far as to minimize the writings of Paul and the other authors of the New Testament.

 

[Rippon]

I call these "red letter" Christians.

In the past, on the BB, there have been some who have held that view. They maintain that the words of Jesus carry more weight than that of Paul, John, Peter and company.

Paul vs. Jesus comes up among them. But there is no such disjunction.

Some of them will carry their "no creed but Christ" dictum so far as to minimize the writings of Paul and the other authors of the New Testament.

Yep, that's what some do. As I said, their Christ must be a blank slate since they don't believe in doctrine formulations. The phrase "Believe in Christ" becomes meaningless. There are certain propositions about the Person of Christ one must believe.

They make statements such as :"I believe in the Person of Christ, not theology." But what is theology? The study of God. How does one study God? Through the reading and meditaion of His Holy Word. One can't believe in the Person of Christ without believing certain things about Him. Those "things" are teachings from the Scripture --doctrine.

 

[Darrell C]

Brother, while not all dispensationalists may be consumed with their eschatology, there are individual dispensationalists who are. John Hagee cannot talk about anything other than his dispensationalism (and he does a good job of making a fool of himself). There is a danger whenever a person get out of balance in their theology.

Isn't that true of most theology systems, though? My friend, I have come around here off and on for quite a while, and there are still the same people caught up in the identical debates they were five years ago. And to classify someone a "Dispensationalist" because they believe in the Rapture which is clearly taken from First Century inspired Scripture is an injustice.

There are some of us Pre-Tribulational Rapturists who are simply Bible-believing Christians. I get categorized as all sorts of this and thats, lol, but when the rubber meets the road (to quote a dispensationalist, lol) I do not rely on any other designation than Christian. I am opposed to the contention that opposing theology systems create, and have warned people about this.

If we stick to a Biblical Doctrine, and place our loyalty to the Word of God, most of these contentions can be dealt with, and fellowship denied can be fellowship restored.

And John Hagee? Who cares? If you are so well acquainted with his doctrine that you can condemn him, I would suggest you have lost valuable time that could have been spent in the Word of God. We need to be in the Books of the Bible, not books about the Bible, and that is the singular mistake of those who are fanatical about any theology system. I gave up, in large part, commentaries and teachings by others several years ago. I rely on what God has promised to do if I am obedient to be in His Word. We should get to the point where the need to be taught how to study is behind us, and our studies take on a more personal relationship with God. I think all can get to that point, but not while their allegiance is held by something other than the Word of God.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

In the past, on the BB, there have been some who have held that view. They maintain that the words of Jesus carry more weight than that of Paul, John, Peter and company.

Paul vs. Jesus comes up among them. But there is no such disjunction.

Yep, that's what some do. As I said, their Christ must be a blank slate since they don't believe in doctrine formulations. The phrase "Believe in Christ" becomes meaningless. There are certain propositions about the Person of Christ one must believe.

They make statements such as :"I believe in the Person of Christ, not theology." But what is theology? The study of God. How does one study God? Through the reading and meditaion of His Holy Word. One can't believe in the Person of Christ without believing certain things about Him. Those "things" are teachings from the Scripture --doctrine.

On a forum I was recently on I was introduced, for the first time, to "Mid-Acts Dispensationalism." And while there were points I would agree with in their views, they still take a radical extreme to it's limit.

It is true that Paul's teachings are specific to the Church, and I do hold to the view that the Church began at Pentecost, and the Born Again believer should not be equated to the Old Testament Saint. However, I still see a radical extreme created which usually does an injustice to Scripture as a whole. Scripture, from start to finish, is a consistent and harmonious revelation of God's will, and there is nothing we discount from it as we seek to bring it into the harmonious balance contained in it.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

On a forum I was recently on I was introduced, for the first time, to "Mid-Acts Dispensationalism." And while there were points I would agree with in their views, they still take a radical extreme to it's limit.

It is true that Paul's teachings are specific to the Church, and I do hold to the view that the Church began at Pentecost, and the Born Again believer should not be equated to the Old Testament Saint. However, I still see a radical extreme created which usually does an injustice to Scripture as a whole. Scripture, from start to finish, is a consistent and harmonious revelation of God's will, and there is nothing we discount from it as we seek to bring it into the harmonious balance contained in it.


God bless.

Hyper Dispy is wrong, as they would hold that we do not do water baptism now, as was before pauline letters, and that basically we do not need the gospels nor any other writer but Paul to get doctrines and theology from!