The Heresy of Negating Man's Will

[jonathan.borland]

Here's a classic point from John Chrysostom, Homiliae in Joannem 46:

Ver. 44. “No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw Him.”

The Manichaeans spring upon these words, saying, “that nothing lies in our own power”; yet the expression showeth that we are masters of our will. “For if a man cometh to Him,” saith some one, “what need is there of drawing?” But the words do not take away our free will, but show that we greatly need assistance. And He implieth not an unwilling comer, but one enjoying much succor. Then He showeth also the manner in which He draweth; for that men may not, again, form any material idea of God, He addeth,

Ver. 46. “Not that any man hath seen God, save He which is of God, He hath seen the Father.”

“How then,” saith some one, “doth the Father draw?” This the Prophet explained of old, when he proclaimed beforehand, and said,

Ver. 45. “They shall all be taught of God.” (Isa. 54:13)

Seest thou the dignity of faith, and that not of men nor by man, but by God Himself they shall learn this? And to make this assertion credible, He referred them to their prophets. “If then ‘all shall be taught of God,’ how is it that some shall not believe?” Because the words are spoken of the greater number. Besides, the prophecy meaneth not absolutely all, but all that have the will. For the teacher sitteth ready to impart what he hath to all, and pouring forth his instruction unto all.

=====

Now I find it interesting that Augustine came from Manichaeism, and apparently some of old Mani's ideas never could desert his mind. All the expositors and apologists in the second and third centuries say the same thing regarding man's free will, that the idea that he has none is heretical.

 

[convicted1]

Here's a classic point from John Chrysostom, Homiliae in Joannem 46:

Ver. 44. “No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw Him.”

The Manichaeans spring upon these words, saying, “that nothing lies in our own power”; yet the expression showeth that we are masters of our will. “For if a man cometh to Him,” saith some one, “what need is there of drawing?” But the words do not take away our free will, but show that we greatly need assistance. And He implieth not an unwilling comer, but one enjoying much succor. Then He showeth also the manner in which He draweth; for that men may not, again, form any material idea of God, He addeth,

Ver. 46. “Not that any man hath seen God, save He which is of God, He hath seen the Father.”

“How then,” saith some one, “doth the Father draw?” This the Prophet explained of old, when he proclaimed beforehand, and said,

Ver. 45. “They shall all be taught of God.” (Isa. 54:13)

Seest thou the dignity of faith, and that not of men nor by man, but by God Himself they shall learn this? And to make this assertion credible, He referred them to their prophets. “If then ‘all shall be taught of God,’ how is it that some shall not believe?” Because the words are spoken of the greater number. Besides, the prophecy meaneth not absolutely all, but all that have the will. For the teacher sitteth ready to impart what he hath to all, and pouring forth his instruction unto all.

=====

Now I find it interesting that Augustine came from Manichaeism, and apparently some of old Mani's ideas never could desert his mind. All the expositors and apologists in the second and third centuries say the same thing regarding man's free will, that the idea that he has none is heretical.

Man doesn't desire anything about God in his fallen state. I was that way, you was that way, too, if I ventured a guess. Sure, I 'loved' God, but in this 'love' was hatred. Why do I state it thusly? Jesus stated, `None is able to serve two lords, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to the one, and despise the other; ye are not able to serve God and Mammon.(Matt. 6:24 YLT) You can not be unregenerate and love the Lord over Satan, it's just not biblically possible. As it states, If ye love me, my commands keep.(John 14:15 YLT)

All of this stems from the will, and the will is 'steered' by its nature. An apple tree can only produce apples, an fig tree can only produce figs, &c. It's that way with us. Our nature drives our wills. Once the nature has been changed, so has the will. As Jesus so plainly stated it, because apart from me ye are not able to do anything.(John 15:5 YLT)

 

[steaver]

Here's a classic point from John Chrysostom, Homiliae in Joannem 46:

Ver. 44. “No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw Him.”

The Manichaeans spring upon these words, saying, “that nothing lies in our own power”; yet the expression showeth that we are masters of our will. “For if a man cometh to Him,” saith some one, “what need is there of drawing?” But the words do not take away our free will, but show that we greatly need assistance. And He implieth not an unwilling comer, but one enjoying much succor. Then He showeth also the manner in which He draweth; for that men may not, again, form any material idea of God, He addeth,

Ver. 46. “Not that any man hath seen God, save He which is of God, He hath seen the Father.”

“How then,” saith some one, “doth the Father draw?” This the Prophet explained of old, when he proclaimed beforehand, and said,

Ver. 45. “They shall all be taught of God.” (Isa. 54:13)

Seest thou the dignity of faith, and that not of men nor by man, but by God Himself they shall learn this? And to make this assertion credible, He referred them to their prophets. “If then ‘all shall be taught of God,’ how is it that some shall not believe?” Because the words are spoken of the greater number. Besides, the prophecy meaneth not absolutely all, but all that have the will. For the teacher sitteth ready to impart what he hath to all, and pouring forth his instruction unto all.

=====

Now I find it interesting that Augustine came from Manichaeism, and apparently some of old Mani's ideas never could desert his mind. All the expositors and apologists in the second and third centuries say the same thing regarding man's free will, that the idea that he has none is heretical.

Excellent! :thumbsup: All Christian men and women are given the same Holy Spirit whom illuminates these Truths of freewill found within God's sovereignty. Some resist and come up with their own manmade systems of thought. Tis why we all have a judgment to face, for rewards and positions in the thousand year reign with Christ.

 

[tyndale1946]

Man doesn't desire anything about God in his fallen state. I was that way, you was that way, too, if I ventured a guess. Sure, I 'loved' God, but in this 'love' was hatred. Why do I state it thusly? Jesus stated, `None is able to serve two lords, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to the one, and despise the other; ye are not able to serve God and Mammon.(Matt. 6:24 YLT) You can not be unregenerate and love the Lord over Satan, it's just not biblically possible. As it states, If ye love me, my commands keep.(John 14:15 YLT)

All of this stems from the will, and the will is 'steered' by its nature. An apple tree can only produce apples, an fig tree can only produce figs, &c. It's that way with us. Our nature drives our wills. Once the nature has been changed, so has the will. As Jesus so plainly stated it, because apart from me ye are not able to do anything.(John 15:5 YLT)

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:I agree!... I would says something about the OP but I will bridle my tongue!.. Brother Glen

 

[steaver]

Man doesn't desire anything about God in his fallen state. I was that way, you was that way, too, if I ventured a guess. Sure, I 'loved' God, but in this 'love' was hatred. Why do I state it thusly? Jesus stated, `None is able to serve two lords, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to the one, and despise the other; ye are not able to serve God and Mammon.(Matt. 6:24 YLT) You can not be unregenerate and love the Lord over Satan, it's just not biblically possible. As it states, If ye love me, my commands keep.(John 14:15 YLT)

Mark 10:17-22,

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.


And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.


Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

 

[Iconoclast]

Team anti -Cal Jihad having failed to establish anything in scripture now turns to ECF's and Manichaeism in vain looking for someone who holds to their ideas of free will...

let's see;


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/362167/Manichaeism

Manichaeism, dualistic religious movement founded in Persia in the 3rd century ad by Mani, who was known as the “Apostle of Light” and supreme “Illuminator.” Although Manichaeism was long considered a Christian heresy, it was a religion in its own right that, because of the coherence of its doctrines and the rigidness of its structure and institutions, preserved throughout its history a unity and unique character.

Mani was born in southern Babylonia (now in Iraq). With his “annunciation” at the age of 24, he obeyed a heavenly order to manifest himself publicly and to proclaim his doctrines; thus began the new religion. From that point on, Mani preached throughout the Persian Empire. At first unhindered, he later was opposed by the king, condemned, and imprisoned. After 26 days of trials, which his followers called the “Passion of the Illuminator” or Mani’s “crucifixion,” Mani delivered a final message to his disciples and died (sometime between 274 and 277).



The saving knowledge of the true nature and destiny of humanity, God, and the universe is expressed in Manichaeism in a complex mythology. Whatever its details, the essential theme of this mythology remains constant: the soul is fallen, entangled with evil matter, and then liberated by the spirit or nous. The myth unfolds in three stages: a past period in which there was a separation of the two radically opposed substances—Spirit and Matter, Good and Evil, Light and Darkness; a middle period (corresponding to the present) during which the two substances are mixed; and a future period in which the original duality will be reestablished. At death the soul of the righteous person returns to Paradise. The soul of the person who persisted in things of the flesh—fornication, procreation, possessions, cultivation, harvesting, eating of meat, drinking of wine—is condemned to rebirth in a succession of bodies.


team Anti- cal jihad fails again

 

[convicted1]

Mark 10:17-22,

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.


And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.


Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

He observed them from his youth up. Yet Jesus told him one thing thou lackest...

 

[steaver]

He observed them from his youth up. Yet Jesus told him one thing thou lackest...

And what was that one thing?

 

[convicted1]

And what was that one thing?

He did all of that yet the one thing he lacked was the desire to truly follow after Jesus. Jesus showed him his weakness when He put that man's feet to the fire. He knew what was that man's true desire, his wealth, his worldly possession. When Jesus told him to sell it and then distribute the money, he left.

The unregenerate can not keep the Law, seeing that they have already broken commandment numero uno.....


--for where your treasure is, there will be also your heart.(Matt. 6:21 YLT)

--for where your treasure is, there also your heart will be.(Luke 12:34 YLT)

--The good man out of the good treasure of the heart doth put forth the good things, and the evil man out of the evil treasure doth put forth evil things.(Matt. 12:35 YLT)

--`The good man out of the good treasure of his heart doth bring forth that which [is] good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart doth bring forth that which [is] evil; for out of the abounding of the heart doth his mouth speak.(Luke 6:45 YLT)


It all stems from the heart.....


--`Brood of vipers! how are ye able to speak good things -- being evil? for out of the abundance of the heart doth the mouth speak.(Matt. 12:34 YLT)

--but the things coming forth from the mouth from the heart do come forth, and these defile the man;(Matt. 15:18 YLT)

 

[steaver]

He did all of that yet the one thing he lacked was the desire to truly follow after Jesus. Jesus showed him his weakness when He put that man's feet to the fire. He knew what was that man's true desire, his wealth, his worldly possession. When Jesus told him to sell it and then distribute the money, he left.

The unregenerate can not keep the Law, seeing that they have already broken commandment numero uno.....


--for where your treasure is, there will be also your heart.(Matt. 6:21 YLT)

--for where your treasure is, there also your heart will be.(Luke 12:34 YLT)

--The good man out of the good treasure of the heart doth put forth the good things, and the evil man out of the evil treasure doth put forth evil things.[/b](Matt. 12:35 YLT)

--`The good man out of the good treasure of his heart doth bring forth that which [is] good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart doth bring forth that which [is] evil; for out of the abounding of the heart doth his mouth speak.(Luke 6:45 YLT)


It all stems from the heart.....


--`Brood of vipers! how are ye able to speak good things -- being evil? for out of the abundance of the heart doth the mouth speak.(Matt. 12:34 YLT)

--but the things coming forth from the mouth from the heart do come forth, and these defile the man;(Matt. 15:18 YLT)

You answered well, so God does love the un-regenerated.

 

[convicted1]

You answered well, so God does love the un-regenerated.

God's love is focused upon His Son. Those who were predestined to the adoption of His Son shall always be loved by God. The rich ruler, it stated that Jesus beheld him and even loved him. But Jesus was also 100% man as well. He stated that only God knew the end of time. Yet, Jesus is also 100% God, too.


Jesus, as a man, loved him.

 

[steaver]

God's love is focused upon His Son. Those who were predestined to the adoption of His Son shall always be loved by God. The rich ruler, it stated that Jesus beheld him and even loved him. But Jesus was also 100% man as well. He stated that only God knew the end of time. Yet, Jesus is also 100% God, too.


Jesus, as a man, loved him.

:laugh: Oh the reasoning of Calvinist! You gotta love them.....

 

[convicted1]

:laugh: Oh the reasoning of Calvinist! You gotta love them.....

Is Jesus God? Yes.
Did Jesus say that only God and not the Son knew the end of time? Yes.

How do you reconcile this? Hmmm?

Did Jesus weep over Jerusalem knowing their impending doom? Yes.
Did God predetermine the thrashing of Jerusalem in AD 70? Yes.

How do you reconcile this? Hmmm?


The hypostatic union of Christ is a deep subject....

 

[OldRegular]

Excellent! :thumbsup: All Christian men and women are given the same Holy Spirit whom illuminates these Truths of freewill found within God's sovereignty.

Are you claiming that the unsaved man is given the Holy Spirit?

Some resist and come up with their own manmade systems of thought.

Explain why some believe and others do not.

Tis why we all have a judgment to face, for rewards and positions in the thousand year reign with Christ.

Rewards and positions in the 1000 tear reign. Where did you get that idea?

************************************************************

 

[OldRegular]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:I agree!... I would says something about the OP but I will bridle my tongue!.. Brother Glen

I really don't care what the Manichaeans believed but what the Bible teaches!

**************************************************************

 

[OldRegular]

Mark 10:17-22,

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.


And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.


Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

And your point is, bothering than causing eye strain!

****************************************************************

 

[OldRegular]

Team anti -Cal Jihad having failed to establish anything in scripture now turns to ECF's and Manichaeism in vain looking for someone who holds to their ideas of free will...

let's see;


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/362167/Manichaeism

Manichaeism, dualistic religious movement founded in Persia in the 3rd century ad by Mani, who was known as the “Apostle of Light” and supreme “Illuminator.” Although Manichaeism was long considered a Christian heresy, it was a religion in its own right that, because of the coherence of its doctrines and the rigidness of its structure and institutions, preserved throughout its history a unity and unique character.

Mani was born in southern Babylonia (now in Iraq). With his “annunciation” at the age of 24, he obeyed a heavenly order to manifest himself publicly and to proclaim his doctrines; thus began the new religion. From that point on, Mani preached throughout the Persian Empire. At first unhindered, he later was opposed by the king, condemned, and imprisoned. After 26 days of trials, which his followers called the “Passion of the Illuminator” or Mani’s “crucifixion,” Mani delivered a final message to his disciples and died (sometime between 274 and 277).



The saving knowledge of the true nature and destiny of humanity, God, and the universe is expressed in Manichaeism in a complex mythology. Whatever its details, the essential theme of this mythology remains constant: the soul is fallen, entangled with evil matter, and then liberated by the spirit or nous. The myth unfolds in three stages: a past period in which there was a separation of the two radically opposed substances—Spirit and Matter, Good and Evil, Light and Darkness; a middle period (corresponding to the present) during which the two substances are mixed; and a future period in which the original duality will be reestablished. At death the soul of the righteous person returns to Paradise. The soul of the person who persisted in things of the flesh—fornication, procreation, possessions, cultivation, harvesting, eating of meat, drinking of wine—is condemned to rebirth in a succession of bodies.


team Anti- cal jihad fails again

Thanks Icon. I have read about the Manichaeans in the past and have already stated I did not care what the Manichaeans believed but thanks for the refresher. The depths to which some people will go to dispute the Biblical Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace is amazing.

*******************************************************

 

[tyndale1946]

=OldRegular;2197007]I really don't care what the Manichaeans believed but what the Bible teaches

Sorry I didn't make myself clear... I agreed with Brother Willis comment but I didn't agree with the opening post... I would have said something but decided not to... Brother Glen... I may change my mind!

 

[steaver]

Is Jesus God? Yes.
Did Jesus say that only God and not the Son knew the end of time? Yes.

How do you reconcile this? Hmmm?

Did Jesus weep over Jerusalem knowing their impending doom? Yes.
Did God predetermine the thrashing of Jerusalem in AD 70? Yes.

How do you reconcile this? Hmmm?


The hypostatic union of Christ is a deep subject....

And your Calvinistic glasses decides Jesus at some points displayed a character that was somehow less than God?? Really!!

John 14:9 - Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Willis? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father.

 

[steaver]

Are you claiming that the unsaved man is given the Holy Spirit?

************************************************************

Did you somehow miss the word "Christian" in my post? :wavey: