How would you say the application or process of obtaining salvation has changed since the “founding” of the New Testament Church and periods since then (such as the dark ages or the reformation)? How does our practice of obtaining salvation differ from those of Luther or Calvin? It seems like we have taken a likin’ to the just say a prayer and you’re good to go method. How do you think they viewed salvation in the early church? Was it a prayer or a willful change of life? God bless.
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The History of Salvation..
- Thread starter Brice
- Start date
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
Before that question can be answered we must define what is meant by "salvation". That term is used throughout the Scriptures with a broad significance. It is used of God delivering us from all the evils that afflict man from the cradle to the grave.Originally posted by Brice:
How do you think they viewed salvation in the early church? Was it a prayer or a willful change of life? God bless.
If you use the term "salvation" in that broad sense, then surely salvation - deliverance - comes as we trust in God to lead, guide, and direct us through the trials of life. Of necessity to experience God's salvation in our lives we must wilfully, and continually, be repenting of our sin, praying to God, and seeking to do His will.
However, the Bible also speaks of salvation in a more narrow sense of being saved from the damnation of hell and being insured of blessedness in the afterlife. This is what is normally thought of today when people think of being "saved". It is the thing of which Jesus spoke when He said, "you must be born again."
So if we are talking about salvation in this limited sense of the term, it is neither a prayer nor a change of life. Rather, it is bald faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice as Savior of the world. As Jesus said,
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
And,
"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life."
Mark Osgatharp
I think a review of the sermons in Acts is the best place to begin (you said the beginning of the church to today).
Jesus and the apostles agree that belief, repentance and baptism were all key components when they preached.
I can't comment much on the later centuries; I don't know.
If you want an excellent review of the last 50 years and how things have changed in Evangelicalism, I suggest Murray's "Evangelicalism Divided". It is excellent.
Jesus and the apostles agree that belief, repentance and baptism were all key components when they preached.
I can't comment much on the later centuries; I don't know.
If you want an excellent review of the last 50 years and how things have changed in Evangelicalism, I suggest Murray's "Evangelicalism Divided". It is excellent.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Before that question can be answered we must define what is meant by "salvation". That term is used throughout the Scriptures with a broad significance. It is used of God delivering us from all the evils that afflict man from the cradle to the grave.Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brice:
How do you think they viewed salvation in the early church? Was it a prayer or a willful change of life? God bless.
If you use the term "salvation" in that broad sense, then surely salvation - deliverance - comes as we trust in God to lead, guide, and direct us through the trials of life. Of necessity to experience God's salvation in our lives we must wilfully, and continually, be repenting of our sin, praying to God, and seeking to do His will.
However, the Bible also speaks of salvation in a more narrow sense of being saved from the damnation of hell and being insured of blessedness in the afterlife. This is what is normally thought of today when people think of being "saved". It is the thing of which Jesus spoke when He said, "you must be born again."
So if we are talking about salvation in this limited sense of the term, it is neither a prayer nor a change of life. Rather, it is bald faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice as Savior of the world. As Jesus said,
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
And,
"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life."
Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not sure what you mean by salvation in the broad sense, being delivered from what? Certainly you don't believe that Christians will be delivered from hardship. That's not supported by the experience of the deciples, almost all of whom were martyred.
Actually, I don't accept the definition of two salvations, one in this life and one for the everafter. There is only one salvation for both.Maybe that's the way you justify to yourself salvation without being born again.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Salvation is, essentially, rescue from ourselves, for it is we who sin and therefore deserve death.
This means we MUST be born again, to receive a new nature within us -- one that does not TEND (Gen. 8:21) toward evil but prefers good, even though we still do sin (hopefully less and less).
And to receive this new nature we are told to simply believe on Christ. He has done everything necessary for us to be changed, but has left the choice up to us.
People's ideas have swung from Catholicisms salvation by works to Calvinism's puppetry (in the hands of an angry God...), but the Bible has stayed the same and so has biblical Christianity.
This means we MUST be born again, to receive a new nature within us -- one that does not TEND (Gen. 8:21) toward evil but prefers good, even though we still do sin (hopefully less and less).
And to receive this new nature we are told to simply believe on Christ. He has done everything necessary for us to be changed, but has left the choice up to us.
People's ideas have swung from Catholicisms salvation by works to Calvinism's puppetry (in the hands of an angry God...), but the Bible has stayed the same and so has biblical Christianity.
a puppet is manipulated, with no will of its own. The vast majority, under Calvinism's ideas, are doomed to hell -- in the hands of an angry God -- and the 'fortunate' minority who will end up in heaven were chosen before they were created, and thus have no will of their own in the matter either.
Yup, puppets.
Not biblical, but rather puppets under fancy names.
The biblical presentation of salvation is neither that nor salvation by works.
Yup, puppets.
Not biblical, but rather puppets under fancy names.
The biblical presentation of salvation is neither that nor salvation by works.
But how has it changed? I know in terms of God it has not changed, but how has our view of it changed? We now say a prayer and then you are good to go, but is that the same view that the earlier churches held to? Is the prayer necessary or is belief and change necessary or both?
arkie pastor
New Member
Brice I believe down through the years men has concocked many ideas about what it is and how you obtain it. Sad to say many are in error.
I like to look at the simplicity of what Paul told the Philippian Jailer when ask...."Sirs what must I do to be saved? ....Paul simply said, "And they said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thopugh shalt be saved" Acts 16:30,31
I like to look at the simplicity of what Paul told the Philippian Jailer when ask...."Sirs what must I do to be saved? ....Paul simply said, "And they said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thopugh shalt be saved" Acts 16:30,31
Ah...what is so sad, Helen, is that your version of the gospel has YOU as the puppeteer and you are directing your future and controling your destiny. Poor God, the Puppet in your theology, has no power to do anything unless your "free will" allows Him to.Originally posted by Helen:
a puppet is manipulated, with no will of its own. The vast majority, under Calvinism's ideas, are doomed to hell -- in the hands of an angry God -- and the 'fortunate' minority who will end up in heaven were chosen before they were created, and thus have no will of their own in the matter either.
Yup, puppets.
Not biblical, but rather puppets under fancy names.
The biblical presentation of salvation is neither that nor salvation by works.
Is your God a puppet Helen? My God is not. My God is the sovereign King who does all that He pleases according to the pleasures of His will (Eph. 1:1-11).
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
I do not seek to "justify" myself "without being born again." I am born again because I believed the promise of Christ to give me eternal life.Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
There is only one salvation for both. Maybe that's the way you justify to yourself salvation without being born again.
Having already been born again, if I now live according to the word of God my life will be saved from the practice of sin.
You may not believe this, but it is the clear and plain teaching of the Bible.
Mark Osgaharp
bjonson, The fact that I chose to accept God's gift means that He is and always has been sovereign enough to allow human beings free will within the limits He has set. It is a God more sovereign than the Calvinist idea of God, not less. The fact that He ALLOWED me to make a decision does not mean that I control Him at all! It simply means that within the province of HIS control, He allowed certain freedoms to His creatures.
That does not lessen His control one iota.
That does not lessen His control one iota.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
I do not seek to "justify" myself "without being born again." I am born again because I believed the promise of Christ to give me eternal life.Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
There is only one salvation for both. Maybe that's the way you justify to yourself salvation without being born again.
Having already been born again, if I now live according to the word of God my life will be saved from the practice of sin.
You may not believe this, but it is the clear and plain teaching of the Bible.
Mark Osgaharp </font>[/QUOTE]How do you define being "born again." I believe that it means a significant change in a person which makes Christ rather than sin their master and which results in noticeable changes in their life. It sounds like you don't accept this definition because a change in a person's life seems to be optional for you. That, I don't believe and it is not Biblical.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
Straight and Narrow,
The "new birth" is when God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, raises a man out of spiritual death into spiritual life. It is a 100% new creation of God. It is not merely a "significant change" - it is a 100% change. The new born spirit is just as sinless and pure as Jesus Christ Himself.
Furthermore, man's will to change has nothing to do with the new birth. The only part man has in it is to believe in God's provision of eternal life through the sacrifice of God. When man believes, the God creates the new man.
When a man has been born again by faith in Christ he, indeed, has the love of God shed abroad in his heart which cannot fail to change his disposition toward God and man. However, as we still live in the flesh and still have the constraints of the flesh, we must make a daily choice to follow the Spirit and not the flesh.
The best any of us can say is that sometimes we walk in the spirit and sometimes we walk in the flesh. The fact that born again people sometimes walk in the flesh does not mean they are not born again.
This is the true doctrine of Jesus Christ on the matter.
Mark Osgatharp
The "new birth" is when God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, raises a man out of spiritual death into spiritual life. It is a 100% new creation of God. It is not merely a "significant change" - it is a 100% change. The new born spirit is just as sinless and pure as Jesus Christ Himself.
Furthermore, man's will to change has nothing to do with the new birth. The only part man has in it is to believe in God's provision of eternal life through the sacrifice of God. When man believes, the God creates the new man.
When a man has been born again by faith in Christ he, indeed, has the love of God shed abroad in his heart which cannot fail to change his disposition toward God and man. However, as we still live in the flesh and still have the constraints of the flesh, we must make a daily choice to follow the Spirit and not the flesh.
The best any of us can say is that sometimes we walk in the spirit and sometimes we walk in the flesh. The fact that born again people sometimes walk in the flesh does not mean they are not born again.
This is the true doctrine of Jesus Christ on the matter.
Mark Osgatharp
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Mark,
You didn't answer my question but merely repeated what I said. Where in the Bible do you find support for two different kinds of salvation, one for eternal life which doesn't necessarily affect your daily life and another one "to experience God's salvation in our lives?" Only for achieving this "broad salvation" must "we wilfully, and continually, be repenting of our sin, praying to God, and seeking to do His will."
Going to heaven can be accomplished much more easily according to your stated belief.
You didn't answer my question but merely repeated what I said. Where in the Bible do you find support for two different kinds of salvation, one for eternal life which doesn't necessarily affect your daily life and another one "to experience God's salvation in our lives?" Only for achieving this "broad salvation" must "we wilfully, and continually, be repenting of our sin, praying to God, and seeking to do His will."
Going to heaven can be accomplished much more easily according to your stated belief.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
Straight and Narrow,
If you think I repeated what I said, either I badly misconstrued what you said or you badly miscontrued what I said. In any event, here is the Scripture that makes a stark distinction between being "saved" in the sense of having eternal life and being "saved" in the sense of living a life of eternal value:
"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
The distinction is clear, unmistakable, and Scriptural. The man who fails to discern this distinction will be hopelessly lost in understanding the Bible and will ultimately end up believing in lawlessness or getting to heaven by good works.
Mark Osgatharp
If you think I repeated what I said, either I badly misconstrued what you said or you badly miscontrued what I said. In any event, here is the Scripture that makes a stark distinction between being "saved" in the sense of having eternal life and being "saved" in the sense of living a life of eternal value:
"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
The distinction is clear, unmistakable, and Scriptural. The man who fails to discern this distinction will be hopelessly lost in understanding the Bible and will ultimately end up believing in lawlessness or getting to heaven by good works.
Mark Osgatharp