The Holy Roman Catholic Church...

[BobRyan]

Catholics are in error for denying the John 1:1-4 teaching about Christ as THE Creator ALL - and embracing evolutionism instead.

The Arians are wrong for denying the truth of John 1:1-4 showing Christ as the Creator of ALL things on earth and then Rev 14 that shows we are to WORSHIP the one that CREATED all things on earth!

Evolutionists are wrong "in general" denying both the foundation John sets for the entire Gospel AND denying the authority of God's Word by their compromised positions.

Arians are wrong "specifically" on the subject of the Trinity.

So who does that leave - Bible believing Evangelicals and those Protestants that still accept the Gospel foundation of Christ worshipped as our Creator!

(Let's face it - I am on a Baptist board - if I can't make that case on THIS open forum, I would need to throw in the towel)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Phillip:
Matt and Thomas, I think it is funny that if we take verses literally and they disagree with someone's denominational belief, then we are "twisting" that verse. How many times have you heard that arguement?

I concur--I've heard that silly accusation many times.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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What day did God give as a picture of the Sabbath? Exodus 20:10 The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
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DoubtingT
But the Church has been worshipping on the Lord's Day, Sunday, from the beginning since that is the Day Christ rose from the dead.

Well you are right that it is merely a custom/tradition replacing one of the "commandments" of God.

There we can find complete agreement.

But as for ANY record of NT saints "gathered for weekly worship" on week-day-one AND calling it "The Lord's Day" --- We do not have even ONE example in all of scripture!

This point is emphasized by Leo Tress in his book "The Faith Explained" a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican 2.


NO example of the NT saints "praying to the dead" as the RCC teaches mankind to do.

NO examle of ANY NT saint calling Mary "The Mother of God" - NOT even ONE.

NO example of ANY NT saint praying FOR a dead relative that they should leave purgatory! -- NOT EVEN ONE.

The list goes on. You get the point.

When the saints leave tradition and return to the Bible - they return to pure doctrine.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Lastdazed]

The Church of scripture is one united ecclesial body (Eph 4:3-4; Eph 4:13-16; Jn 17:21; Mt 16:18) without schismatic divisions (1 Cor 12:25; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10; Jude 1:19; Gal 5:20; 3 John 1:9-10), with one teaching for all the churches (Acts 15:22-23,25,28/Acts 16:4-5; 1 Tim 1:3; 1 Cor 1:10; Eph 4:5; Jude 1:3), and one bishopric authorized of and by the apostles (Titus 1:5) by the laying on of hands in ordination (Heb 6:2; 2 Tim 1:6; 1 Tim 4:14; Titus 1:5), sharing ministers back and forth among all churches (1 Cor 16:3; Rom 16:1,3,9,21,23; Phil 2:19,25; Titus 3:12), receiving one another in fellowship and in greeting (Rom 15:5-7; Rom 16:16; Col 4:10,12,14; 3 John 1:9-10), where excommunication removes individuals from this one body (Matt 18:17; 1 Corinthians 5:1-2,4-5), and which existed from St. Peter and the apostles unto today (Matt 16:18-19; Eph 3:21).

Protestantism, in contrast, is literally thousands of separatist ecclesial governments that do not share one ecclesial body, that have endless schismatic divisions, that share no united teaching for all churches, that contain no authorized bishopric dating to the apostles, that do not share ministers between all churches, that do not receieve all members both in fellowship and greeting, and which have no effective excommunication.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
----
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />DoubtingT
But the Church has been worshipping on the Lord's Day, Sunday, from the beginning since that is the Day Christ rose from the dead.

Well you are right that it is merely a custom/tradition replacing one of the "commandments" of God.

There we can find complete agreement.</font>[/QUOTE]No, this was/is not merely a custom of men but Apostolic Tradition which came from Christ through the Apostles to the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ and is the ground and pillar of truth and has been worshipping right since AD 33--on the first day of the week,

. The old covenant has passsed away having been fulfilled in Christ. The Church worships on the day he rose from the dead.

When the saints leave tradition and return to the Bible - they return to pure doctrine.

In Christ,

Bob

But you're creating a false dichotomy where Scripture does not:
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle" (2 Thess 2:15).
The Apostle Paul does not oppose the oral word or written epistle as means of handing down the tradition and neither should we. (Nor is there a single place in Scripture that says that all apostolic tradition would be eventually "inscripturated"--that idea is a 16th century tradition of men. NOT one place! )

It's when one leaves the Tradition and embraces "sola Scriptura" that he becomes susceptible to the sea of conflicting doctrinal errors that characterizes Protestantism.

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
In John 1:1-3 we find that evolutionism is DEAD - because JESUS IS The CREATOR who creates ALL THINGS!!

In John 1 THIS is the foundation and BASIS for the Gospel.

In Rev 14 we are told to WORSHIP the one who CREATED ALL THINGS on earth!

EVEN by the standards of the non-trinitarians this would make Jesus fully God!

I don't know any of them that deny that GOD ALONE is to be worshipped!

In Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob,

YAHWEH created all things.

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says Yahweh, your redeemer,
he who formed you in the womb: I, Yahweh, have made all things,I alone spread out the heavens.
When I hammered the earth into shape, who was with me?

The world that was created through Jesus was the world to come. Sometimes we think the verses are referring to the world that we see now but Scripture will interpret itself.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

It seems like these above verse are referring to this world but it's not, it's referring to the world or age to come.

Hebrews 2:5 For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by jcf:

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[qb] In John 1:1-3 we find that evolutionism is DEAD - because JESUS IS The CREATOR who creates ALL THINGS!!

In John 1 THIS is the foundation and BASIS for the Gospel.

In Rev 14 we are told to WORSHIP the one who CREATED ALL THINGS on earth!

EVEN by the standards of the non-trinitarians this would make Jesus fully God!

I don't know any of them that deny that GOD ALONE is to be worshipped!

In Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob,

YAHWEH created all things.

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says Yahweh, your redeemer,
he who formed you in the womb: I, Yahweh, have made all things,I alone spread out the heavens.
When I hammered the earth into shape, who was with me?

The world that was created through Jesus is the world to come. Sometimes we think the verses are referring to the world that we see now but Scripture will interpret itself.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

It seems like these above verse are referring to this world but it's not, it's referring to the world or age to come.

Hebrews 2:5 For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.

John 1 is not the basis for the gospel, the promises of God are.

 

[BobRyan]

Nevertheless - I assume you accept the Gospel of John. And Clearly John STARTS that Gospel with the role of Christ as the Creator of ALL THINGS.

(Paul does the same in Col 1)

Rev 14 tells us to WORSHIP Him who made the heavens AND the earth the SEAs and the springs of waters.

So that means we are to worship Christ and as you point out - Christ is the YHWH of the OT that was SEEN.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DoubtingT
But the Church has been worshipping on the Lord's Day, Sunday, from the beginning since that is the Day Christ rose from the dead.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob said
Well you are right that it is merely a custom/tradition replacing one of the "commandments" of God.

There we can find complete agreement.

But as for ANY record of NT saints "gathered for weekly worship" on week-day-one AND calling it "The Lord's Day" --- We do not have even ONE example in all of scripture!

This point is emphasized by Leo Tress in his book "The Faith Explained" a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican 2.


NO example of the NT saints "praying to the dead" as the RCC teaches mankind to do.

NO examle of ANY NT saint calling Mary "The Mother of God" - NOT even ONE.

NO example of ANY NT saint praying FOR a dead relative that they should leave purgatory! -- NOT EVEN ONE.

The list goes on. You get the point.

Still no challenge to that? No "actual" verse?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Matt Black]

I think that this thread demonstrates amply the theological bankruptcy and danger of sola Scriptura

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[neal4christ]

Yes, sola scriptura was my first defense that fell...

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Yes, sola scriptura was my first defense that fell...

Hi neal4christ,

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

1 Peter 1:24-25 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Psalms 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.

Psalms 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

Psalms 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Lastdazed]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
But as for ANY record of NT saints "gathered for weekly worship" on week-day-one AND calling it "The Lord's Day" --- We do not have even ONE example in all of scripture!

You are absolutely right.
"The Lord's Day", scripturally speaking, is "the Day of the Lord"

The terms are synonymous, again, Biblically speaking.

But that, of course, opens up another can of worms.........

NO example of the NT saints "praying to the dead" as the RCC teaches mankind to do.

NO examle of ANY NT saint calling Mary "The Mother of God" - NOT even ONE.

NO example of ANY NT saint praying FOR a dead relative that they should leave purgatory! -- NOT EVEN ONE.

The list goes on. You get the point.
Still no challeng to that? No "actual" verse?

In Christ,

Bob

Neither can we find ONE example of the Church of scripture being literally thousands of separatist ecclesial governments that do not share one ecclesial body, that have endless schismatic divisions, that share no united teaching for all churches, that contain no authorized bishopric dating to the apostles, that do not share ministers between all churches, that do not receieve all members both in fellowship and greeting, and which have no effective excommunication.

To borrow your phrasing......."Still no challenge to that?, no actual verse?"

 

[Lastdazed]

**

 

[Lastdazed]

Originally posted by jcf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by neal4christ:
[qb] Yes, sola scriptura was my first defense that fell...

Hi neal4christ,

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.</font>[/QUOTE]If only Paul would have told Timothy "ONLY scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Then you'd have a case.

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

1 Peter 1:24-25 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Psalms 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.

Psalms 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

Psalms 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Again, this testifies that scripture is God's word, and you'll find no disagreement from your orthodox/anglican/catholic brethren on this point, however, none of the verses you quoted (or didn't quote for that matter) mandate that God's word does not also exist outside of scripture, as sola scriptura adherants need it to.

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by Lastdazed:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jcf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by neal4christ:
[qb] Yes, sola scriptura was my first defense that fell...

Hi neal4christ,

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.</font>[/QUOTE]If only Paul would have told Timothy "ONLY scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Then you'd have a case.

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

1 Peter 1:24-25 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Psalms 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.

Psalms 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

Psalms 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Again, this testifies that scripture is God's word, and you'll find no disagreement from your orthodox/anglican/catholic brethren on this point, however, none of the verses you quoted (or didn't quote for that matter) mandate that God's word does not also exist outside of scripture, as sola scriptura adherants need it to. </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Lastdazed,

The Apostles, including Timothy, were given special revelation form God to write these things in the New Testament using the Old Testament as a spring board for our learning.

Romans 15:4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

The Scriptures make us wise unto salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The Apostles were move by the Spirit to write these things so that we might believe.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The words throughout Scripture are for us to whom the end as come for an example and our admonition.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come.

Blessed are those keep these things that written is the Scriptures.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

There will come a time which I believe is now here when the church departs from the faith or that which is contained in the Scriptures.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

People of God will not endure sound doctrine and will turn away from the faith starting with the Nicene Creed.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Revelation 22:18-20 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

The only work outside of Scripture is the work of the Spirit to help us understand the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

Without the words of truth which are contained in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament you got nothing but the doctrines and traditions of men.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Mark 7:8-9 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.'' And He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

Mark 7:13 "Making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.''

 

[neal4christ]

Hi, jcf. Thanks for listing those verses. I am quite fond of Sacred Scripture.

But none of those supports the doctrine of sola scriptura.

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Hi, jcf. Thanks for listing those verses. I am quite fond of Sacred Scripture.

But none of those supports the doctrine of sola scriptura.

Hi neal4christ,

When we study the Scriptures we should be searching for concepts that we can apply to our lives. These concepts obtained through God's knowledge (His word)will produce in us a divine nature.

2 Peter 1:2-8 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Where else can we obtain God's nature if we don't use His word and His word alone to get it. It's in His word that we find God's thoughts and His character revealed in detail.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

jcf: Where else can we obtain God's nature if we don't use His word and His word alone to get it. It's in His word that we find God's thoughts and His character revealed in detail.

We do participate in God's nature through His Word and His Word is Christ, the Eternal Logos. We are united with the Word in baptism and are nourished by the Word Himself in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
But as for ANY record of NT saints "gathered for weekly worship" on week-day-one AND calling it "The Lord's Day" --- We do not have even ONE example in all of scripture!

Originally posted by Lastdazed:

You are absolutely right.
"The Lord's Day", scripturally speaking, is "the Day of the Lord"

The terms are synonymous, again, Biblically speaking.

Well now we are getting somewhere!

Week-day-one is never called "Lord's Day" or "Day of the Lord" in all of the Bible.

However you bring out a good point that the 7th day of the week is called "The Holy Day of the Lord" and Sabbath.

Isaiah 58
13 ""If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The Holy Day of the LORD honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word,
14 Then you will take delight in the LORD, And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.''

Usually people want to cover this fact up - and never discuss it in the light of day.

I am surprised that you would want to point it out!

Fascinating!

In Christ,

Bob