The Holy Spirit and Salvation !

[Brightfame52]

Must See the Son to Believe on Him !

Jn 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus once said Jn 9:39

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Man who is spiritually blind by nature, cannot See Christ to Believe on Him, utterly impossible. Jesus associates believing with seeing here Jn 12:39-40

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

We believe however that the Spirit of God, in New Birth, or Regeneration opens up the Spiritual Eyes of New Born babe, and by that they are able to Spiritually See the Things of God, and most importantly See the Son of God who gave Himself for them, they See Him in the Gospel, and So it is written Jn 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We believe the Seeing of the Son is the effects of the Spirit and Grace of God, for we do read in scripture this Zech 12:10

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

We believe this is a Look of Faith, a Seeing the Son, after the pouring of the Spirit upon them !

The word Look here is the Hebrew word nabat and means:

I.to look, regard ,ii.to regard, show regard to, pay attention to, consider

And it is the equivalent to the word Seeth in Jn 6:40, which is the greek word theōreō and means:

I.to be a spectator, look at, behold
A.
to view attentively, take a view of, survey

i.to view mentally, consider

The Spirit will give us to focus in on the Person and Work of Christ, Just as Jesus indicated He would do Jn 16:14

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

This is Part of the Spirit's Role in the Salvation of the Elect through Jesus Christ, and why Faith in Christ is His Fruit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 5

 

[Brightfame52]

@Tenchi

As I've noted before, simply asserting something doesn't, by itself, establish the assertion.

Im sticking to this assertion about men in general while governed by sinful nature Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Brightfame52]

This is a distinction without a difference, if the spiritual regeneration of a lost person remains ultimately coercive. If a man is made to rob a bank because, if he doesn't, his wife will be murdered, is he any less coerced to enact the robbery than if he had been physically forced at gunpoint to do so? No. Whether by some direct, physical means (do it or I'll shoot you), or by indirect extortion (we'll kill your wife), the man is forced to rob the bank.



I don't see anything about coercive force in this verse. "Calling" doesn't communicate such a thing at all, in my view. But, then, I don't have Calvinist lenses on when I read the verse...



How does "calling" translate into coercion? Take off your Calvinist "glasses" when you read this verse and answer this question, if you can.



I don't see that you've properly established the premises that ground your conclusion here at all. Far from it.

Doesn't matter to me what you cant see, thats the issue, I see things you cant see at this time, and you have resisted my explaining of things, so it does no good to just keep explaining my views to you and I know you cant see them as ido ! Its not given to everyone to see the spiritual kingdom truths att 13:11

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

 

[Tenchi]

Im sticking to this assertion about men in general while governed by sinful nature Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Well, if you want to remain willfully blind to the full scope of Scripture so that you can maintain your erroneous beliefs, so be it. It's not my responsibility to convince you of the truth, only to declare and defend it. As Job, Noah, Enoch, Daniel, David, Cornelius and others show, Romans 3:11 is misused by Calvinists to assert a condition of human nature that is contradicted repeatedly by God's word.

Doesn't matter to me what you cant see, thats the issue, I see things you cant see at this time,

No, it's not that I don't see what you see - I do - but that I am not in agreement with what you see. Actually, from my point of view, what you see blinds you to the real truth of things. Your "sight" is, as far as I'm concerned, quite myopic.

and you have resisted my explaining of things, so it does no good to just keep explaining my views to you and I know you cant see them as ido !

Right. Your explanations have collapsed under my scrutiny of them in the light of God's word. So, it is no good repeating your collapsed viewpoint. I see what you see but must reject it since it doesn't correspond well to Scripture, as I've pointed out.

Its not given to everyone to see the spiritual kingdom truths att 13:11

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

I'm sure this patronizing attitude makes you feel secure in your views, but it is the confidence of the thoroughly deceived, in my opinion.
And how ugly it is that you use Scripture here in a sort of spiritualized condescension and ad hominem. Quite in contradiction to how God would have His word used, I think. See Ephesians 4:15; 2 Timothy 2:24-25, Galatians 6:1, etc.

 

[Brightfame52]

Well, if you want to remain willfully blind to the full scope of Scripture so that you can maintain your erroneous beliefs, so be it. It's not my responsibility to convince you of the truth, only to declare and defend it. As Job, Noah, Enoch, Daniel, David, Cornelius and others show, Romans 3:11 is misused by Calvinists to assert a condition of human nature that is contradicted repeatedly by God's word.



No, it's not that I don't see what you see - I do - but that I am not in agreement with what you see. Actually, from my point of view, what you see blinds you to the real truth of things. Your "sight" is, as far as I'm concerned, quite myopic.



Right. Your explanations have collapsed under my scrutiny of them in the light of God's word. So, it is no good repeating your collapsed viewpoint. I see what you see but must reject it since it doesn't correspond well to Scripture, as I've pointed out.



I'm sure this patronizing attitude makes you feel secure in your views, but it is the confidence of the thoroughly deceived, in my opinion.
And how ugly it is that you use Scripture here in a sort of spiritualized condescension and ad hominem. Quite in contradiction to how God would have His word used, I think. See Ephesians 4:15; 2 Timothy 2:24-25, Galatians 6:1, etc.

Im sticking to this assertion about men in general while governed by sinful nature Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. You cant get past square one with scripture

 

[Tenchi]

Im sticking to this assertion about men in general while governed by sinful nature Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. You cant get past square one with scripture

This is the sort of response propagandists hope for in those they've caught up in their propaganda. Don't be content to satisfy their hopes. Open your eyes to all that Scripture says about human nature and God; refuse to wear the myopia-inducing Calvinist lens through which you're presently scrutinizing God's word.

 

[Brightfame52]

This is the sort of response propagandists hope for in those they've caught up in their propaganda. Don't be content to satisfy their hopes. Open your eyes to all that Scripture says about human nature and God; refuse to wear the myopia-inducing Calvinist lens through which you're presently scrutinizing God's word.

Its the sorta of response you cant refute, its scripture. Rom 3:11-12

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Hearing of Faith !

Gal 3:2,5

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This Hearing of Faith is only for the regenerate, those who have received the Spirit through Faith as in through the Faithfulness of Christ Gal 3:13-14

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Its a Redemptive Blessing Gal 4:4-6

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Now after receiving the Spirit , one can now believe the Gospel, because they now with the Spirit have been given spiritual hearing, and Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God Rom 10:17

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This is the Hearing of Faith in Gal 3:2,5 !

Now we must add Jesus words here, Jn 8:43-47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

This proves that the Spirit must have been given in order to Hear God's Word, Jesus makes it clear here in Vs 47 !

To be of God is to be Born of God !

Jesus again asserts this sublime Truth Jn 18:37

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Thats what the Hearing of Faith is, Hearing the Word of God or Christ. Some Translate Rom 10:17

17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.ASV

The word word is rhema and means:

that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning

So Faith cometh by Hearing the Living voice of Christ, which Jesus makes it clear that those who do hear His Voice are of the Truth, or born of the Spirit Jn 18:37

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

So thats the Hearing of Faith, it the Spiritual hearing of those who are born of God the Spirit ! 5

 

[JesusFan]

This is the sort of response propagandists hope for in those they've caught up in their propaganda. Don't be content to satisfy their hopes. Open your eyes to all that Scripture says about human nature and God; refuse to wear the myopia-inducing Calvinist lens through which you're presently scrutinizing God's word.

We prefer just to agree with Jesus, as only His own sheep can hear His voice, and Isaiah and Peter, that none seek after the Lord by themselves

 

[Tenchi]

Its the sorta of response you cant refute, its scripture. Rom 3:11-12

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

I'm not trying to refute Scripture. I'm pointing out to you that Paul's words aren't to be taken in the radical way that Calvinism proposes. Obviously, no one is righteous. Obviously, none seek after God without His aid. But this doesn't mean that all people from birth are utterly without the capacity to respond positively to God, possessed of a corpse-like "deadness" to Him. This isn't what Scripture indicates in the examples of the men I pointed out to you.

The Hearing of Faith !

Gal 3:2,5

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This Hearing of Faith is only for the regenerate, those who have received the Spirit through Faith as in through the Faithfulness of Christ Gal 3:13-14

The verses you've cited here don't say what you have. Neither of them locate the cause of the "hearing of faith" in spiritual regeneration by the Spirit. In fact, the first verse you cite says that the Galatian believers received the Spirit BY the hearing of faith. That is, they first heard the truth, believed it and then received the Spirit. Your view appears to be the exact reverse of this, however.

In verse 5, Paul, speaking of himself, asks his readers whether or not he "ministered the Spirit," working miracles among them, by means of the Mosaic Law or by "the hearing of faith." Does he indicate that the Spirit first regenerates a person so that they can then "hear by faith"? No. He implies, instead, that his ministering and miracle-working are as a consequence of - or BY - the hearing of faith. This suggests an order to things where the hearing of faith precedes and gives rise to Spirit-ministering and miracles. You, though, seem to have this reversed.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Its a Redemptive Blessing Gal 4:4-6

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Now after receiving the Spirit , one can now believe the Gospel, because they now with the Spirit have been given spiritual hearing, and Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God Rom 10:17

The ordo salutis you put forward here seems to me to be the reverse of what your supporting verses indicate. The Spirit is received through faith Paul wrote in Galatians 3:14. In other words, faith is the mechanism by which the Spirit is received; faith, then, precedes receiving the Spirit, being the necessary predicate for receiving the Spirit, as Paul stated. Why have you reversed what Paul plainly declared? Do you see how your Calvinist lens has distorted your reading of Scripture?

Galatians 4:5-6
5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Here Paul flatly asserts that the Spirit of God is sent into the hearts of people because they are children of God, not in order for them to become children. How are they God's children? By trusting in (having faith in) Christ as their Savior and Lord (Ro. 10:9-10).

Consider Acts 10:23-48. The Gentile centurion, Cornelius, along with a group of family and close friends, eagerly heard the Gospel from Peter, Cornelius having been prompted in a vision from God to find Peter in Joppa. Only once Peter had shared the Gospel with the wide-open Cornelius (and company) did the Spirit "fall upon" them all (Ac. 10:42-44). Cornelius et al gladly heard the Gospel, believed it and then the Spirit came upon them.

There's also the instance in Acts 19:

Acts 19:1-7 (NASB)
1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
7 There were in all about twelve men.

Here, Paul encountered disciples of Jesus (vs. 1) and asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when - not before - they had believed (vs. 2). They explained to Paul that they hadn't and that they had been baptized by John the Baptist. Paul responded by clarifying the nature of John's baptism to these disciples and then he baptized them all a second time in the name of Jesus. When this was done, then the Holy Spirit came upon the Ephesian disciples. Note the order of things here:

Hearing> Belief> water baptism> Holy Spirit comes upon them.

The disciples at Ephesus agreed to water baptism in the name of Jesus because they had heard of, and had believed in, Jesus as the promised Messiah and Savior. Their water baptism in Christ's name was an outward expression of this belief. It was only upon this expression of belief, however, that the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples, not before.

Now we must add Jesus words here, Jn 8:43-47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

This proves that the Spirit must have been given in order to Hear God's Word, Jesus makes it clear here in Vs 47 !

To whom was Jesus speaking here? The Pharisees (Jn. 8:13). There were other Jews listening to Jesus, as well. Some of them believed on Christ as he spoke (Jn. 8:30) but, strangely, as he continued to speak to the group of Jews who had believed, some of them balked at his words, preposterously denying that Jews had ever been enslaved (which they had over past centuries a number of times - Egypt, Bablyonia, Assyria, Persia). They were, it seems, the "rocky ground" on which seeds of God's truth had fallen (Matt. 13:20-21).

Did all who had believed on Christ reject him, though? I don't think so. It makes little sense for John to remark that many had believed on Christ who then immediately cast off that belief. What did John mean by "many came to believe in him" if that same entire group shortly after tried to stone him to death? It seems to me far more reasonable to understand that some among the crowd of those who had believed took umbrage at Christ's words and challenged his remarks, as John recorded.

In any case, verse 30 quite fouls your idea that Jesus' words in the passage from John 8 prove the Spirit must be given prior to being able to hear the Gospel and believe it.

 

[Tenchi]

We prefer just to agree with Jesus, as only His own sheep can hear His voice, and Isaiah and Peter, that none seek after the Lord by themselves

This is a Question Begging remark. Do you know what this is?

I don't think you are agreeing with Jesus. You're simply assuming, as far as I'm concerned, a construction of his words that is in error.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Tenchi

I'm not trying to refute Scripture.

Also you dont believe it, and then you try to excuse it

 

[Tenchi]

Also you dont believe it, and then you try to excuse it

You can lead a horse to water...

 

[Brightfame52]

He is the Spirit of Promise to the Seed !

The Spirit is promised to all who shall be saved in and through the Lord Jesus Christ, because all that shall be saved are His Seed Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Isa 44:13

For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

Jesus after having been Crucified and risen and ascended to the Father's Right Hand, received from the Father this Acts 2:30-33

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

That word shed is the greek word ekcheō means :

I.
to pour out, shed forth

II.
metaph. to bestow or distribute largely

Earlier in Acts 2:17-18

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out G1632 of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

These people are His Seed as Per Isa 44:13 ; Isa 53:10 !

They have the Spirit of Promise poured out upon them because He by His death for them, His having made His soul an offering for sin for them, He redeemed them from the curse of the Law, so that the Blessing of Abraham should come upon them, which is The Spirit Gal 3:13-14

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This shows you also that Christ and Abraham had a Seed amongst the Gentiles , and they too must receive the Promise of the Spirit poured out upon them as did a remnant of jews did.

Remember Peter said of the Gentiles Acts 10:45

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Remember the Promise Isa 44:3

3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:


Acts 11:17

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

See all this was confirming that God had a Seed of Abraham not just in the ethnic jews, but also upon the Gentiles, and so the Spirit must according to promise be poured out upon them also , they were included in the Seed of Christ whom He made His soul an offering for sin for Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

The Spirit is Promised to as many as the Lord God shall call out of the jews and Gentiles Acts 2:38-39

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

That is to the jewish remnant elect and the Gentile remnant of the Elect, described here as the " all that are afar off"

Paul Identifes them as Gentiles Eph 2:17

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

The ethnic jews were the nigh portion of the Seed, and the Gentiles were the afar off portion of the Seed, though still One Seed of Abraham and of Christ !

All who receive remission of sins are the Seed, and are promised the Spirit ! Acts 2:38

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Remission of sins is through the Redemption of His Blood Matt 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness/remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

All which are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The Spirit Promised to Christ's Seed Isa 44:3

3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

Thats who believes the Gospel of their Salvation, the Seed Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 5

 

[Mathetes66]

Proof texts pulled out of their contexts & mixed together to make a pretext is isogesis not exegesis.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Holy Spirit of Promise !


Eph 1:13-14

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest/down payment of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The Holy Spirit is the down payment of our Inheritance, if indeed we are heirs of promise.

Such as Heb 6:17

Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Heb 11:9

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Rom 4:13-14

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

All of Abraham's Children who are Justified by Faith with the Righteousness of Christ are the Heirs of Promise ! It had nothing to do with ethnicity ! But with the Righteousness which is revealed to Faith !

Now the Inheritance of which the Spirit is a earnest down payment of is stated here Gal 3:18

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

The same is mentioned here Heb 11:8

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Remember what Paul wrote back in Galatians, the Promised Inheritance was not to Abraham's physical seed through the Law Rom 4:13

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Thats why Heb 11:8 said that Abraham BY FAITH, when he was called, Obeyed, the obedience of Faith and imputed Righteousness.

Noah the same thing, The Righteousness of Faith showed him an Heir Heb 11:7 !

And once again, its the Inheritance promised here to Abraham and His Seed Gen 17:8

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

That word possession is actually achuzzah :

I.possession, property
A.
land

B.
possession by inheritance

This Promised Inheritance is promised to Abraham and His seed after him in all generations ! The seed is not a jewish ethnic people through the Law Rom 4:13, but made up of a Spiritual Seed of Believers of both jew and Gentile Rom 4:13-17

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

The Seed in Rom 4:16 comprised of both jew and gentile Children of Abraham because of Faith, is the same Seed referenced here in Gen 17:8

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

The Inheritance is the whole Earth , or the World Rom 4:13 ; Matt 5:5 ; 2 Pet 3:13, and to each of the Heirs of Promise of this Inheritance, the Spirit is given them as a down payment of that Inheritance !

 

[Brightfame52]

Proof texts pulled out of their contexts & mixed together to make a pretext is isogesis not exegesis.

Thats your excuse for not receiving scripture truth

 

[Mathetes66]

We believe however that the Spirit of God, in New Birth, or Regeneration opens up the Spiritual Eyes of New Born babes & by that they are able to Spiritually See the Things of God & most importantly See the Son of God who gave Himself for them, they See Him in the Gospel & So it is written Jn 6:40 'And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son & believeth on him, may have everlasting life & I will raise him up at the last day.'

We believe the Seeing of the Son is the effects of the Spirit and Grace of God, for we do read in scripture this Zech 12:10
We believe this is a Look of Faith, a Seeing the Son, AFTER the pouring of the Spirit upon them!

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced & they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son & shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Regeneration does not proceed faith. That is not scriptural. You don't become a regenerated, saved person AND THEN have faith. You put your faith in Christ & then are regenerated.

You did what I stated before: mixing two different single verse quotes, pulling them out of their contexts & then mixing them to make your pretext of regeneration before faith, which is not biblical.

John 5:39 does not state the person who sees Jesus Jesus is regenerated & then has faith to see. It is NOT in the context nor in that single quoted verse. Then an appeal is made to a completely different context in Zech 12 & pulling one verse out of that CONTEXT to force a meaning on John 5;39 that is not in the Scripture.

Zech 12:1-14 The BURDEN OF THE WORD OF THE LORD FOR ISRAEL, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens & layeth the foundation of the earth & formeth the spirit of man within him. 2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, WHEN THEY SHALL BE IN THE SEIGE both against Judah & against Jerusalem. 3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that BURDEN THEMSELVES WITH IT shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4IN THAT DAY, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment & his rider with madness & I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah & will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5And the governors of Judah shall say IN THEIR HEART, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength IN THE LORD OF HOSTS THEIR GOD.

6IN THAT DAY I will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood & like a torch of fire in a sheaf & they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand & on the left & Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7The LORD also SHALL SAVE THE TENTS OF JUDAH FIRST, that the glory of the house of David & the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8IN THAT DAY shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem & he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour UPON THE HOUSE OF DAVID & UPON THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM, the spirit of grace & of supplications & they shall look upon me whom they have pierced & they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son & shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11IN THAT DAY shall there be a GREAT MOURNING in Jerusalem, as the MOURNING of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12And THE LAND SHALL MOURN, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart & their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart & their wives apart; 13The family of the house of Levi apart & their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart & their wives apart; 14All the families that remain, every family apart & their wives apart.

This spirit of grace AND supplication is talking about a very specific time: IN THAT DAY when Christ returns & what God will do in judging all the nations that come against the nation of Israel & Jerusalem in the last days & TO a specific group of people. They will mourn & cry out to God. It is not talking about being regenerated before they believe. The tents of Judah were saved first. And the spirit of grace & supplication was for PRAYER -- mourning because of their unbelief. These are the tribes of Israel IN THAT DAY, in the end times & what God will do with the nation of Israel. It doesn't mention anything about regeneration.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds & every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And aALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH WILL MOURN BECAUSE OF HIM. So shall it be! Amen.

And Rev 1:7 goes even further concerning the MOURNING because of Him who has RETURNED & is coming to judge ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH, not just the tribes of the nation of Israel!

John19:31-37 Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

John 20:19-31 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came & stood among them & said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20When he had said this, he showed them his hands & his side. Then the disciples were glad WHEN they saw the Lord. 21Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22And WHEN he had said this, he breathed on them & said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

24Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them WHEN Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails & place my finger into the mark of the nails & place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”

Thomas wasn't with the others WHEN they received the Holy Spirit AFTER they saw & believed.

26Eight days later, his disciples were inside again & Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came & stood among them & said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here & see my hands & put out your hand & place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28Thomas answered him, “My Lord & my God!” 29Jesus said to him,

“Have you believed BECAUSE YOU HAVE SEEN ME? BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SEEN & YET HAVE BELIEVED.”

30Now Jesus did MANY OTHER SIGNS in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God & that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Mathetes66

Regeneration does not proceed faith.

It does, faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

If you dont have the Spirit from regeneration you dont have its fruit, faith. At least not Spiritual faith which pleases God and believes on His Christ

 

[Tenchi]

It does, faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

If you dont have the Spirit from regeneration you dont have its fruit, faith. At least not Spiritual faith which pleases God and believes on His Christ

??? Even atheists possess faith. They have faith in their dentist, doctor, spouse, other drivers on the road, the chef at their favorite restaurant, etc. This could be said of a Hindu, or Muslim, or a Wiccan, too. And so, God's word says that God has given to every man a "measure of faith." (Ro. 12:3) which exists independently of the indwelling Holy Spirit. This capacity for faith is, in fact, part of what it is to be a human being made in the imago dei.

By the way, the ESV and NASB both have "faithfulness" rather than "faith" in Galatians 5:23, the Greek word pistis commonly meaning "assurance," or "conviction," or "persuasion," derived from peitho, as it is, rather than "the capacity to believe in and trust something."

Galatians 5:23, then, isn't indicating that faith itself is given to the born-again person, but that assurance of the Gospel, a conviction of its truth, is enabled by the Holy Spirit, just as John 16:8 tells us is the case. And as I pointed out already from a couple of examples in Acts, the ordo salutis concerning spiritual regeneration has the Spirit coming upon people after they've heard and believed in the Gospel.