The Holy Spirit and Salvation !

[Brightfame52]

This is just deflection and dismissal which demonstrates, I think, how poorly-equipped you are to contend effectively for the assertions you've been making about the Holy Spirit.

More rabbit trail

 

[Brightfame52]

2 Thess 2:13 before belief of the Truth !

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Folks before belief of the Truth, which in and of itself is a type of salvation, in that we are by it saved from unbelief and false gospels and lies of men inspired by satan 2 Cor 11:4,13-15 and doctrines of devils 1 Tim 4:1,16 ; 2 Tim 2:25-26 ; so yes before belief of the Truth, which is also Faith, for the greek word belief here in 2 Thess 2:13 is the same greek word noun for Faith pistis, hence before anyone can receive the Truth in Faith, it must be through application of the Spirits Sanctifying Work accompanying it, effecting it, and it is that which gives belief of the Truth.

Thats why there are multitudes upon multitudes in the churches and religions today who really dont believe the Truth or believe it without compromise with heart conviction, its simply because they were never sanctified of the Spirit, like the ones who receive it [The Truth] in good ground Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

That good ground is hollowed by the Spirit of God, sanctified by Him and made prepared for the reception of the Truth ! 6

 

[Tenchi]

2 Thess 2:13 before belief of the Truth !

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2 Thessalonians 2:10-15
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them who perish; because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Paul is speaking here of the "man of sin"/"son of perdition" who deceives those who "perish" because "they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved." Paul doesn't say that they perish because God has, from eternity past, ordained that they should, but because they will not receive a love of the truth (See: Ro. 1:18-32). And because they refuse the truth, God shall send them a "strong delusion" (again, see: Ro. 1:18-32). In these verses, Paul gives no hint that the refusal of the those who perish is the product of the fore-ordination of God, but indicates only that they perish because they rejected the truth.

12 That they all might be damned who did not believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Here, if the Calvinist is correct, God damns those He has made unable to believe the truth. But in this verse, Paul gives no glimmer that this is what he's thinking. No, he blames the damned for their damnation, pointing at their refusal to believe the truth, choosing "pleasure in unrighteousness" instead, in explanation of why they are damned. Here is a very useful companion passage to this verse:

Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

All of the responsibility for the darkening of their hearts, is located by Paul in those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness." Paul points out that God has removed all cause for excuse in such people, having given them testimony of Himself in Creation (and in conscience, Scripture and the Incarnation, too). Not once does he suggest or imply that God ultimately made them incapable of honoring and giving thanks to Him, as the Calvinist supposes.

13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

By what means did God achieve "salvation through sanctification" in the "brethren"? By meticulous, coercive fore-ordination of their salvation, eliminating their choice in the matter? No, Paul here wrote that the Spirit, in tandem with the brethren's belief of the truth, produced their "salvation through sanctification." Why point to their belief if that belief is merely the effect of God's sovereign decree? This is a confusing - even misleading - way to write of the unilateral, salvific action of God (i.e. monergism) in bringing the Chosen to salvation. It's suggests the brethren's belief has some role to play in their "salvation through sanctification" (which, on Calvinism, is Pelagian heresy).

But, then, Paul wrote that God has chosen the brethren "from the beginning" to salvation. In what sense? In the sense that God has decided from before the world began that all who would hear and believe the truth of the Gospel and freely choose to trust in Christ are made elect in him (Eph. 1:1-13) who is The Elect of God. From the beginning, God has chosen to adopt all those who would freely choose to put their trust in the Elect, accepting them as His own because they are "in Christ."

Alternatively, one could think of "from the beginning chosen" in a Molinist way, regarding God's choosing as a function of His omniscient "moments" of knowledge.

In any case, a Calvinist construction on Paul's words is by no means necessary, or natural, to understanding his writing.

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

This is a strange couplet of verses if Calvinism is true. What need to "stand fast" in a circumstance entirely ordained of God? One will do so only if God has determined that one will, right? Why, if Paul believed this, does he enjoin his readers to action they can't take unless God compels them to do so? It's an absurd injunction. And an impossible one to fulfill, outside of God's sovereign decree, on Calvinism. How Calvinists manage to swallow these absurdities that plague their systematic - especially when better alternatives exist - is a mystery to me (how's that for Calvinist rhetoric, eh?). Of course, according to Calvinists, I'm doing no more than God has determined I should do. To contend with my views, then, is to contend with the will of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Tenchi

Paul is speaking here of the "man of sin"/"son of perdition"

I already know that, but that doesnt alter the Truth of 2 Thess 2:13 on what Im covering.

 

[Tenchi]

Paul points out that God has removed all cause for excuse in such people, having given them testimony of Himself in Creation (and in conscience, Scripture and the Incarnation, too).

Why would God provide testimony to the unbelieving in a circumstance where no one believes anything He has not ordained that they should believe? And what better excuse for non-belief could a lost person possess than that God has made them incapable of believing in Himself? On Calvinism, if God objects to their unbelief, He has only Himself to blame, after all.

 

[Brightfame52]

2 Thess 2:13 before belief of the Truth ! 2


This Sanctifying Work of the Spirit unto the belief of the Truth is imperative because the Truth is a Sanctified Truth, or else how could Jesus pray this stated request to His Father for His followers Jn 17:17

17 Sanctify[imperative] them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

And this applies to all that shall believe which are the Sheep Jn 17:19-20

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

So if the Truth itself is Sanctified, and does Sanctify, the Vessels receiving it must also be Sanctified in the Minds and Hearts, hence Sanctified persons are only fit vessels to receive Sanctified Truth, and from that point on grow in Sanctification in the Knowledge and belief of the Truth 2 Pet 3:18; 1:4-8

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Because the Spirit which sanctified them in the first place, shall abide , dwell in them.

Thats why John writes in 1 Jn 2:27

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And if anyone denies the need of this Sanctifying work of the Spirit, which is none other than the New Birth, before believing the Truth, they are liars, and this very scripture 2 Thess 2:13 stands as a Testimony against them, and let it be known, that their denial is now moreso against the Holy Spirit and the need of His Work effectually before we can believe the Truth ! 6

 

[Tenchi]

2 Thess 2:13 before belief of the Truth ! 2


This Sanctifying Work of the Spirit unto the belief of the Truth is imperative because the Truth is a Sanctified Truth, or else how could Jesus pray this stated request to His Father for His followers Jn 17:17

17 Sanctify[imperative] them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

And this applies to all that shall believe which are the Sheep Jn 17:19-20

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

So if the Truth itself is Sanctified, and does Sanctify, the Vessels receiving it must also be Sanctified in the Minds and Hearts, hence Sanctified persons are only fit vessels to receive Sanctified Truth, and from that point on grow in Sanctification in the Knowledge and belief of the Truth 2 Pet 3:18; 1:4-8

Yes, the Spirit perfectly sanctifies (sets apart/makes holy) the lost person at the moment of their conversion, clothing them in the holy perfection of Jesus Christ (Ga. 3:27; Ro. 13:14), thus making them acceptable to God (1 Co. 1:2, 30; Eph. 1:4-7). This sanctification comes by way of the Truth of the Gospel, the "word of truth," that the lost person hears, believes and in humility responds to by trusting in Christ as Savior and yielding to him as their Lord (Ro. 10:9-14; Jn. 3:15-17).

There is a practical sanctification that is not perfect, however, in the daily, mundane condition of the born-again person. Throughout their life, the child of God will be growing progressively more set apart unto God, "coming out from among them and being separate" (2 Cor. 6:17). Really, spiritual maturity amounts to the believer's daily condition more and more fully expressing their spiritual position in Christ. This practical sanctification, though, is as much the work of the Holy Spirit as the believer's initial fully sanctifying "baptism" into Jesus Christ that makes them a "new creature" in him (Tit. 3:5-7; 2 Cor. 5:17; Ro. 8:9-16; Phil. 2:13, etc.).

I've discipled many believers who've been saved for decades whose spiritual growth has been minuscule, however. The Spirit is within them, they are familiar with God's word, they've participated in dozens and dozens of Bible study courses and heard hundreds of sermons, but they've advanced mere inches from the point of their conversion, essentially unchanged from who they were when they were first converted. I remark on this to point out that practical sanctification is not a foregone conclusion for the born-again person and to clarify that a widening knowledge base concerning the faith does not automatically translate into genuine spiritual transformation. Many Christians have a pool of knowledge about God's truth and the Christian faith generally that is a mile-wide but an inch deep. This superficiality of knowledge shows up in an unsanctified life practically (that is usually carefully hidden from view).

Thats why John writes in 1 Jn 2:27

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And if anyone denies the need of this Sanctifying work of the Spirit, which is none other than the New Birth, before believing the Truth, they are liars, and this very scripture 2 Thess 2:13 stands as a Testimony against them, and let it be known, that their denial is now moreso against the Holy Spirit and the need of His Work effectually before we can believe the Truth ! 6

But to born-again believers Paul wrote:

Ephesians 4:30-32
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

And,

1 Thessalonians 5:19
19 Do not quench the Spirit;

The sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit is not a coerced work, forced upon the believer against their will. No, it's quite possible for Christians to "live in/by the Spirit" for decades unchanged, never understanding that they are to "walk in the Spirit" and by doing so enjoy life-changing fellowship with God (Ga. 5:16, 25; Ro. 8:14; 12:1; 2 Co. 3:18, etc.). Only when the believer freely chooses to "walk in the Spirit" will they be practically sanctified in the way God intends for them to be. Do you know how to "walk in the Spirit," @Brightfame52? If you don't, should you be trying to instruct others about the Holy Spirit?

 

[Brightfame52]

2 Thess 2:13 before belief of the Truth ! 3

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This verse also means that God has Chosen some to experience these Two things:

#1 Sanctification of the Spirit or New Birth ;

#2 Belief of the Truth,

Also the belief of the Truth is part of the Sanctifying process God the Spirit begins in us [Phil 1:6] in answer to Jesus prayer Jn 17:17-20, its a ongoing progressive work.

The writer of Hebrews writes Heb 10:14 and the word sanctified here opposed to in Vs 10 where its a perfect tense [once and all completed] yet here in Vs 14 its in the present tense " those being sanctified" which denotes continual action ongoing, thats because they will continually being Sanctified by the Truth, as they grow in Grace and Knowledge of it, and acknowledging of the Truth Titus 1:1; 2 Tim 2:25, hence all for whom Christ died, shall be granted repentance to the acknowledging of the Truth, For repentance toward God is not complete if it does not result in belief and or acknowledgment of the Truth, if not, it simply was not repentance granted by God ! 6

 

[Tenchi]

2 Thess 2:13 before belief of the Truth ! 3

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This verse also means that God has Chosen some to experience these Two things:

#1 Sanctification of the Spirit or New Birth ;

#2 Belief of the Truth,

Also the belief of the Truth is part of the Sanctifying process God the Spirit begins in us [Phil 1:6] in answer to Jesus prayer Jn 17:17-20, its a ongoing progressive work.

Yes, all who freely choose to trust in Christ as Savior and Lord are, in The Elect (who is Christ), chosen by God to the redemption, justification and sanctification that is in him (1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 1:1-13). God has sovereignly decreed that all those who are in Christ by faith in him as Savior and Lord will be His adopted children forever. The key to this adoption is that a person be in Christ which they choose to be as they hear the Gospel, believe it, and trust in Christ as their Savior and Lord (see my earlier posts).

But, again, the process of practical sanctification is not a foregone conclusion in the life of a born-again believer but the effect of their remaining in constant submission to the will and way of God (Ro. 6:13-22; 8:14; 12:1; Ja. 4:7; 1 Pe. 5:6, etc.). The transforming work of the Holy Spirit may be entirely halted by a believer who resists, grieves and quenches the Spirit (Eph. 4:30; Eph. 5:19; Ac. 7:51).

because they will continually being Sanctified by the Truth, as they grow in Grace and Knowledge of it, and acknowledging of the Truth Titus 1:1; 2 Tim 2:25,

A knowledge of the Truth alone is insufficient to transform a born-again person. It is necessary to becoming more holy, but, by itself, is insufficient to sanctify. Consider Ravi Zacharias, or Steve Lawson, or Bill Hybels, or Tony Evans, or James MacDonald, etc..

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, all who freely choose to trust in Christ as Savior and Lord are, in The Elect (who is Christ), chosen by God to the redemption, justification and sanctification that is in him (1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 1:1-13). God has sovereignly decreed that all those who are in Christ by faith in him as Savior and Lord will be His adopted children forever. The key to this adoption is that a person be in Christ which they choose to be as they hear the Gospel, believe it, and trust in Christ as their Savior and Lord (see my earlier posts).

But, again, the process of practical sanctification is not a foregone conclusion in the life of a born-again believer but the effect of their remaining in constant submission to the will and way of God (Ro. 6:13-22; 8:14; 12:1; Ja. 4:7; 1 Pe. 5:6, etc.). The transforming work of the Holy Spirit may be entirely halted by a believer who resists, grieves and quenches the Spirit (Eph. 4:30; Eph. 5:19; Ac. 7:51).



A knowledge of the Truth alone is insufficient to transform a born-again person. It is necessary to becoming more holy, but, by itself, is insufficient to sanctify. Consider Ravi Zacharias, or Steve Lawson, or Bill Hybels, or Tony Evans, or James MacDonald, etc..

This is error, basing eternity on temporal beings reaction, its also conditional election, which is a false gospel of works, merit

 

[Brightfame52]

Granting Faith and Repentance are the same thing !

I put this under " The Holy Spirit and Salvation " because it is the Spirits work through Christ, because of His Saving Merit of His Blood, that works in all for whom He died both Faith and Repentance !

Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

All three of these scriptures use the same giving verb didōmi ! I believe this is the result of God giving each person Christ died for the Spirit Rom 5:5

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given/didōmi unto us.

Now why is it that both Faith and Repentance are the same thing ? In other words none of the above texts about giving repentance cannot be divorced from God with giving repentance giving with it an Acknowledgment of the Truth, which in essence is giving them a Knowledge of their Salvation Lk 1:77

77 To give/didōmi knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

So in other words, repentance being granted or given is accompanied by belief in the truth of your Salvation, which cannot be divorced, once we acknowledge the Truth, our hearts / minds have stop opposing it and showing enmity towards it ! Thats why repentance is a change of mind towards the Truth ! 6

 

[JonC]

Thread closed due to length. Please feel free to start another to continue discussion.