The Holy Spirit part deux

[npetreley]

Why is this so difficult for arminians/free-will advocates to address? Can I get some straight answers here, please?

1. Is there a difference between believing in the facts of the Gospel and believing/trusting in Jesus?

2. Does the Holy Spirit play any direct part in enabling you to believe the facts? In other words, does the Holy Spirit influence you directly in order for you to believe the facts of the Gospel? Or is it entirely up to you to believe the facts of the Gospel?

Examples of direct influence: The Holy Spirit directly "convicts" you of your sin. The Holy Spirit "opens your eyes" to the fact that the Gospel is true, no matter how ridiculous it seems from a rational perspective. And so on...

Examples of no direct influence: You hear the facts. You decide for yourself whether or not you believe them.

(Hint: Mr. Bill says the Spirit works indirectly through the person who delivers the message - so if you agree with him, the answer is "No, the Holy Spirit does not work directly, it is entirely up to you to believe.")

3. Having believed the facts, does the Holy Spirit enable or influence you in your ability to trust (believe on) Jesus? Or is it entirely up to you and your free-will decision to trust (believe on) Jesus?

Examples of direct influence: The Holy Spirit indwells you and gives you the power to trust Jesus when it does not seem natural/rational to do so. The Holy Spirit does not indwell you, but directly influences your state of mind in order to strengthen your faith.

Examples of no direct influence: You know the facts and decided they are true. Now it is entirely up to you whether or not you want to trust your life to Jesus.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by npetreley:
[QB] Why is this so difficult for arminians/free-will advocates to address? Can I get some straight answers here, please?

1. Is there a difference between believing in the facts of the Gospel and believing/trusting in Jesus?

What are the facts of the Gospel? The gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ - It is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes. You cannot believe the facts of the good news of Jesus Christ without believing in Jesus.

2. Does the Holy Spirit play any direct part in enabling you to believe the facts? In other words, does the Holy Spirit influence you directly in order for you to believe the facts of the Gospel? Or is it entirely up to you to believe the facts of the Gospel?

The Holy Spirit testifies of Christ (John 15:26) and convicts people of their sin (John 16:8-11). He also reveals things to people (John 15:26; 16:13, 14 1 Corinthians 2: 10, 13)

The Holy SPirit provides the evidence that demands a choice. The choice is up to the person.

3. Having believed the facts, does the Holy Spirit enable or influence you in your ability to trust (believe on) Jesus? Or is it entirely up to you and your free-will decision to trust (believe on) Jesus?

The HOly Spirit is necessary to believe in Christ, because no one seeks God. He calls the person, who chooses one way or another.

 

[KenH]

What Arminians are saying is the the Holy Spirit does a partial job in bring a sinner to Christ but He doesn't complete the job. What Arminians are saying is that God is powerless to save anyone one unless that person lets Him do so. What Arminians are saying is that man's will trumps God's will.

How sad. They believe that God can save no one. And according to their scheme, He can't.

 

[npetreley]

C'mon Scott, stop obfuscating. These are very plain, easy questions.

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
[QB] Why is this so difficult for arminians/free-will advocates to address? Can I get some straight answers here, please?

1. Is there a difference between believing in the facts of the Gospel and believing/trusting in Jesus?

What are the facts of the Gospel? The gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ - It is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes. You cannot believe the facts of the good news of Jesus Christ without believing in Jesus.</font>[/QUOTE]Fine, so you are saying that one is necessary for the other, which means that they are two different things. You could simply have said, "Yes, there is a difference." Can we finally agree on that?

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />2. Does the Holy Spirit play any direct part in enabling you to believe the facts? In other words, does the Holy Spirit influence you directly in order for you to believe the facts of the Gospel? Or is it entirely up to you to believe the facts of the Gospel?

The Holy Spirit testifies of Christ (John 15:26) and convicts people of their sin (John 16:8-11). He also reveals things to people (John 15:26; 16:13, 14 1 Corinthians 2: 10, 13)</font>[/QUOTE]Can you please just come right out and say whether or not this is a direct influence? Does He testify only through the written word, preachers, etc? Or does He actually have a direct influence on the person? Does He "reveal" things to people directly or not?

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
The Holy SPirit provides the evidence that demands a choice. The choice is up to the person.

Again, when you say "provides the evidence" do you simply mean provides the information? Or influences the person's ability to understand the truth of the information? Are you going to dance around this forever?

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />3. Having believed the facts, does the Holy Spirit enable or influence you in your ability to trust (believe on) Jesus? Or is it entirely up to you and your free-will decision to trust (believe on) Jesus?

The HOly Spirit is necessary to believe in Christ, because no one seeks God. He calls the person, who chooses one way or another. </font>[/QUOTE]Again, you did a great job of reciting the most ambiguous explanation that you read everywhere, but you didn't answer the question. Does the Holy Spirit directly empower or even HELP empower the person to trust Christ, or does the Holy Spirit simply provide the information, and all of the trusting is entirely within the ability of the person?

 

[Yelsew]

1. Is there a difference between believing in the facts of the Gospel and believing/trusting in Jesus?

YES, There is knowledge for knowledge's sake, and there is knowledge that animates. That is, you can believe the contents of a message and not be convinced of the message, and you believe the contents of the message which causes you to change the direction of your life.

2. Does the Holy Spirit play any direct part in enabling you to believe the facts? In other words, does the Holy Spirit influence you directly in order for you to believe the facts of the Gospel? Or is it entirely up to you to believe the facts of the Gospel?

I believe that the Holy Spirit is that mysterious difference between being convinced, and acting on the knowledge.

3. Having believed the facts, does the Holy Spirit enable or influence you in your ability to trust (believe on) Jesus? (answered in #2) Or is it entirely up to you and your free-will decision to trust (believe on) Jesus?

I'm not sure that one can completely, individually, and without Spirit influence act upon knowledge, whether that knowledge be the Gospel message or secular message.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by npetreley:
C'mon Scott, stop obfuscating. These are very plain, easy questions.

The irony is that you want specific answers to your questions. Certain ones. When another person doesn't comply, you get persnickety.

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
What are the facts of the Gospel? The gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ - It is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes. You cannot believe the facts of the good news of Jesus Christ without believing in Jesus.

Fine, so you are saying that one is necessary for the other, which means that they are two different things. You could simply have said, "Yes, there is a difference." Can we finally agree on that?

No, I am saying that the two are the same thing. The person who belives the truth about the good news of Jesus Christ believes in Christ.

]Can you please just come right out and say whether or not this is a direct influence? Does He testify only through the written word, preachers, etc? Or does He actually have a direct influence on the person? Does He "reveal" things to people directly or not?

Did you read the passages I posted? Everyone yells about the Arminians not producing enough Scripture. I did, and you don't even pay it any attention. The Spirit directly convicts a person of His sin. He also testifies through others.

Again, when you say "provides the evidence" do you simply mean provides the information? Or influences the person's ability to understand the truth of the information? Are you going to dance around this forever?

Without the Spirit, there is no ability to choose God. The Holy Spirit gives the person a chance to choose, enabling him to do so. I'm not dancing, you're just struggling with me bnot producing the certain answers you want.

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Again, you did a great job of reciting the most ambiguous explanation that you read everywhere, but you didn't answer the question. Does the Holy Spirit directly empower or even HELP empower the person to trust Christ, or does the Holy Spirit simply provide the information, and all of the trusting is entirely within the ability of the person? [/QB]

The Holy Spirit directly empowers the person to choose or reject Christ. Whether that person says "yes" or "no" is the person's own choice.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
The Holy Spirit directly empowers the person to choose or reject Christ. Whether that person says "yes" or "no" is the person's own choice.

And the Bible answer is: (Acts 13:48 KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
No, I am saying that the two are the same thing. The person who belives the truth about the good news of Jesus Christ believes in Christ.

How do you account for the demons knowing Who Jesus is and what He accomplished (the Gospel), yet are not saved? Is it because demons work under different rules? If so, how do you explain the passage in James about "even the demons believe that, and shudder".

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Did you read the passages I posted? Everyone yells about the Arminians not producing enough Scripture. I did, and you don't even pay it any attention. The Spirit directly convicts a person of His sin. He also testifies through others.

Around here, posting scripture is not an answer. People say "all" means "all" when it is convenient for their views, and means "some" when it is not. (Yes, I know both sides can claim that.) So, sad to say, if you're going to answer the questions, you can't just post scripture. You need to explain your interpretation of scripture otherwise there's no way to know what you think it means, no matter how plain I happen to think that scripture may be.

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
The Holy Spirit directly empowers the person to choose or reject Christ. Whether that person says "yes" or "no" is the person's own choice.

Again, this is great recitation, but it doesn't actually say anything meaningful. To what is the person saying "yes" or "no"?

Here's where it fails to come together without any details: First you say that there is no difference between trusting Christ and believing the truth about Who Jesus is and what He did. Now you're saying that what the Holy Spirit enables a person to do is either choose or reject Christ.

So what did the Holy Spirit enable the person to do? Recognize that the Gospel is factually true, after which the person chooses whether or not to trust in it? In that case, you're saying they ARE two different things, and you contradict yourself.

Or does the Holy Spirit enable the person to believe that it is the truth? If that's the case, then they are unable to believe unless the Holy Spirit enables them, and (according to you), belief in the facts of the Gospel is no different than trusting the Gospel. So anyone the Holy Spirit enables is always saved, which leads to predestination or universalism.

So can you please be more specific about what it is the Holy Spirit enables, and why this doesn't contradict your first answer?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
The Holy Spirit directly empowers the person to choose or reject Christ. Whether that person says "yes" or "no" is the person's own choice.

And the Bible answer is: (Acts 13:48 KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. </font>[/QUOTE]Do we need to debate about the word tetragmoni (the Greek word for "ordained to eternal life") again? There is as much evidence that the word is a middle as it is passive, so this is inonclusive for your use.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by npetreley:
How do you account for the demons knowing Who Jesus is and what He accomplished (the Gospel), yet are not saved? Is it because demons work under different rules? If so, how do you explain the passage in James about "even the demons believe that, and shudder".

I am quite certain that it is impossible for Satan to be "saved," although it is clear that he believes that Jesus is God. I would say that demons, as fallen angels, work under different rules. I don't have a problem with that. I fully believe that those who are in Hell will also come to the belief that Jesus is Lord, but it will be too late for them as well.

Around here, posting scripture is not an answer. People say "all" means "all" when it is convenient for their views, and means "some" when it is not. (Yes, I know both sides can claim that.) So, sad to say, if you're going to answer the questions, you can't just post scripture. You need to explain your interpretation of scripture otherwise there's no way to know what you think it means, no matter how plain I happen to think that scripture may be.

How in the world can a person misrepresent the passages I spoke of? IF you disagree that the HOly Spirit convincts men of sin, testifies of Christ, or reveals thing to man, then let me know - otherwise, why not just agree in these three things?

Again, this is great recitation, but it doesn't actually say anything meaningful. To what is the person saying "yes" or "no"?[/quote[

The offer of eternal life which is offered to all men.

Here's where it fails to come together without any details: First you say that there is no difference between trusting Christ and believing the truth about Who Jesus is and what He did. Now you're saying that what the Holy Spirit enables a person to do is either choose or reject Christ.

This is true.

So what did the Holy Spirit enable the person to do? Recognize that the Gospel is factually true, after which the person chooses whether or not to trust in it? In that case, you're saying they ARE two different things, and you contradict yourself.

I think there is a difference in our use of the word "gospel." It seems that you are using it as the first four books of the Bible. I'm looking at it as the "good news" of Jesus Christ. The HOly SPirit communicates to man the Truth, which he is unable to understand without this enabling. Man can then choose whether to believe or disbelieve that truth.

Put it this way. I've had peopel come to me and tell me a story. I didn't believe them. I found out later they told me the Truth. I just didn't believe. In a similar way, the HOly Spirit comes and shows the Truth of Jesus Christ, drawing us to Him. We can choose to believe or not believe. I am unable to see whta the difficulty in this is, really.

Or does the Holy Spirit enable the person to believe that it is the truth? If that's the case, then they are unable to believe unless the Holy Spirit enables them, and (according to you), belief in the facts of the Gospel is no different than trusting the Gospel. So anyone the Holy Spirit enables is always saved, which leads to predestination or universalism.

NOpe. You are missing it completely. I think you are just being beligerent now.

So can you please be more specific about what it is the Holy Spirit enables, and why this doesn't contradict your first answer?

The HOly Spirit enables man to make a choice of accepting God or not. I have said this three times now. Can you understand yet?

My first answer was "The HOly Spirit is necessary to believe in Christ, because no one seeks God. He calls the person, who chooses one way or another," so I do not see how this is a contradiction.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
The Holy Spirit directly empowers the person to choose or reject Christ. Whether that person says "yes" or "no" is the person's own choice.

And the Bible answer is: (Acts 13:48 KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. </font>[/QUOTE]Do we need to debate about the word tetragmoni (the Greek word for "ordained to eternal life") again? There is as much evidence that the word is a middle as it is passive, so this is inonclusive for your use. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes we do because you're going to have to show me where that word "tetragmoni" is.

 

[npetreley]

Scott, your soteriology truly mystifies me, because it doesn't even resemble anything I understood even when I was an advocate of free will. It seems as if you're saying that we start out unable to understand the Gospel message (the rough equivalent of total depravity). At some point in time, the Holy Spirit enables us to understand it. At that point, we have the free will to choose whether or not to believe what it was the Holy Spirit just enabled to understand.

Did I get that right?

If so, do the rest of the arminians/free-will advocates believe this is how it works?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken H,

Whatever God does is accomplished with perfection. His ministry to the sinner through the Holy Spirit is always done with Divine perfection. The problem is that sinners can reject His promptings [John 5:40 & Acts 7:51] in convincing men and women of their need of Christ. God, if you will, is a gentleman. He does not enter a life where He is not wanted. [Rev. 3:20] I do know that God is asking the church if He will invite Him back into their presence, but the same concept is valid toward the sinner. He knocks at the door of the heart, but the sinner must open that door. This is more in keeping with what Arminian Christians believe, rather than the diatribe that you tried to articulate.

What Calvinists never have learned or care to understand is that God is not a Divine bully; your understanding of Sovereignty makes Him this kind of Deity.

God gave the archangel free will to rebel against Himself and He has given human beings this awesome power to either welcome Him in the Gospel or to turn away from everlasting life. I should not even suggest that the first and third paragraph is what Arminius believed. Who cares! The first and third paragraph is in keeping with Biblical theology. This is what is important to understand.

God's will is to call sinners to repentance by the aid of the Spirit and then allow them to use that which He has implanted in them, namely their own free will.

 

[Frogman]

Whatever God does is accomplished with perfection. His ministry to the sinner through the Holy Spirit is always done with Divine perfection. The problem is that sinners can reject His promptings [John 5:40 & Acts 7:51] in convincing men and women of their need of Christ.

Where is the perfection in this?

Brother Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

With all due respect, please follow the verses in John and Acts. Does this not say that the Holy Spirit can be rejected in a sinner's life? What He thinks of His perfection in dealing with sinners is good enough for me; your ignoring Scripture like the above ones proves that you have mega holes in your theology. Answer the question and deal with the Scripture.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The problem is that sinners can reject His promptings...

Romans 9:9 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Isaiah 46:9 For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, "My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
God, if you will, is a gentleman. He does not enter a life where He is not wanted.

Isaiah 46:12 "Listen to Me, you stubborn-hearted, Who are far from righteousness: 13 I bring My righteousness near, it shall not be far off; My salvation shall not linger. And I will place salvation in Zion, For Israel My glory.

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Calvinists insist that the Effectual Calling always insures that the elect will be brought into the eternal fold of Christ. We say that the Spirit can be resisted as noted in Acts 7:51. People of Calvinistic persuasion suggest that His perfection insures that He always gets what He wants, namely the elect.

My question is---is God the Spirit less than perfect and persuasive in the lives of His people when they 'grieve' or 'quench the Holy Spirit? Second question. If God allows the free will of Christians to grieve the Spirit, one does not have to be a rocket scientist to understand that God the Spirit also allows sinners to disobey His calling to faith and everlasting life. Again, study Acts 7:55 & Isaiah 65:1-3. 'I have spread out My hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts.'

God the Spirit was calling the Israelites to Himself, but their free will and rebellion distanced them from Almighty God. God's thoughts were calling them to Himself; their thoughts were in ungodly places.

 

[William C]

My question is---is God the Spirit less than perfect and persuasive in the lives of His people when they 'grieve' or 'quench the Holy Spirit? Second question. If God allows the free will of Christians to grieve the Spirit, one does not have to be a rocket scientist to understand that God the Spirit also allows sinners to disobey His calling to faith and everlasting life.

Good question.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Scott, your soteriology truly mystifies me, because it doesn't even resemble anything I understood even when I was an advocate of free will.

Not sure what kind of free will you understood, but this is basic Arminianism.

It seems as if you're saying that we start out unable to understand the Gospel message (the rough equivalent of total depravity).

Correct. Humanity can do nothing that is good, especially understand the gospel message, until the God enables him through the Holy Spirit.

At some point in time, the Holy Spirit enables us to understand it.

Correct.

At that point, we have the free will to choose whether or not to believe what it was the Holy Spirit just enabled to understand.

Correct. From the five points of the Remonstrants: it takes "awakening, following and co-operating."

Did I get that right?

This is basic Arminianism. If you'd like, check out the basic five points of the Remonstrants for proof, since you don't seem to have any interest in reading what Arminius wrote.

If so, do the rest of the arminians/free-will advocates believe this is how it works?

This is what Arminians believe, at least those who try to remain faithful to the actual teachings of Arminius.

 

[William C]

Correct. Humanity can do nothing that is good, especially understand the gospel message, until the God enables him through the Holy Spirit.

I can introduce you to about 8 guys who understand the gospel very well but have yet to give their lives to following Christ. One of them was a preacher for many years and has a very clear understanding of the message of the cross.

I don't understand why anyone would think that non-believers cannot understand the claims of the gospel apart from a inward direct working of God. Granted, no one would have the gospel presented to them if it hadn't been for the HS's work, but why must we insist that the HS has to indwell a person or even "woo" a person before they have a basic understanding of the gospel? I'm just asking for clarity, I'm not trying to argue one way or another.