The Holy Spirit part deux

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
What Calvinists never have learned or care to understand is that God is not a Divine bully; your understanding of Sovereignty makes Him this kind of Deity.

And what free willers have never learned or care to understand is that God is not a Divine wimp; your understanding of man makes Him this kind of Deity.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
This is what Arminians believe, at least those who try to remain faithful to the actual teachings of Arminius.

Well, I can tell you that Mr. Bill does not believe this, and I thought he called himself an arminian. And don't bother offering the excuse that calvinists differ on some points, too, because it is irrelevant what others differ about, and this is not a minor issue by any stretch of the imagination.

Anyway, I have too many chores right now but I want to come back to address this...

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
What Calvinists never have learned or care to understand is that God is not a Divine bully; your understanding of Sovereignty makes Him this kind of Deity.

And what free willers have never learned or care to understand is that God is not a Divine wimp; your understanding of man makes Him this kind of Deity. </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, can you say "Straw man?"

What makes you believe that God chosing for his creation to have the ability to choose their master makes Him a wimp? If He chose to allow man to decide that is His sovereign right and in no way makes him a wimp.

Are you a parent? Are you a wimping parent just because you allow you child to make their own choices at times? Allowing for others to choose doesn't constitue wimpingness, otherwise Joshua was a wimpy leader when he said, "Choose you this day whom who will serve."

And I guess you believe God would be wimpy if he called the people to come reason together with him, because you know that a "sovereign" God would never call for his creation to "reason" it out or "consider the cost" would He? Oh, wait that's exactly what He does, never mind.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken H,

Your most recent post is wrong. An over-kill. The truth is in the middle. God is sovereign but has willed that humans make the decision to either follow and love Christ or continue in rebellion against His Being. See, God wills to give human agents this freedom and because He decided this He is acting within His sovereignty. He has not violated it.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Ken, can you say "Straw man?"

Then can I assume you will say the same thing to Ray whose sentence structure I borrowed?

All of our children have four legs - 5 Shetland Sheepdogs, 1 Miniature Poodle, and 1 Treeing Walker Coonhound.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
God wills to give human agents this freedom and because He decided this He is acting within His sovereignty.

Ah, so you saying that God's leadership style is like President Bush's, He is a delegater?

 

[Frogman]

God wills His Holy Spirit; this provides the visitation and conviction; and the regeneration; the Holy Spirit does not operate anywhere nor upon anyone that God the Father has not purposed to save.

This would make Him a delegater; as He holds the Sovereignty; delegated the work of redemption to God the Son; and the regeneration of man to God the Holy Spirit.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken H,

Sounds like you are a southern Democratic. All I can say is that God does not force sinners into a salvation experience. Did God force the individual members of the Church of Laodicea back into their spirituality? Note Revelation 3:20. He did not delegate His power and authority, He asked them if they wanted to return to a deeper life of faith. Some things like this He leaves freedom within the hands of the created beings we call men and women.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Ken H,

Sounds like you are a southern Democratic. All I can say is that God does not force sinners into a salvation experience. Did God force the individual members of the Church of Laodicea back into their spirituality? Note Revelation 3:20. He did not delegate His power and authority, He asked them if they wanted to return to a deeper life of faith. Some things like this He leaves freedom within the hands of the created beings we call men and women.

Here you are talking about those who have had their will freed by the regenerating of the Holy Spirit.

In the case of the lost we are discussing those who are bound by a sin-nature who possess no ability to choose anything but sin either in greater or lesser degree, until regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

When I speak of free will it is across the board, humanly speaking. Anyone can turn from their sins and believe in Jesus. Delegating His forced will on some would make him biased and partial. This is the God of Calvinism as seen by the great great grandchildren of said expositor; it is not the God of the Bible, the true God. [Acts 10:34]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Sounds like you are a southern Democratic.

Nope.

Libertarian more so than anything else.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken H,

I think the Libertarian Party has a lot of good ideas, but I doubt if they will ever be a political force in our country. Anyway, the Libertarian Party must believe in free will. Just kidding.

God is sovereign and still leaves the choice of salvation to human beings. The Holy Spirit does work closely in bringing people to a confrontation with Christ.

 

[Frogman]

In this country, all that is needed to be a political force is the ability to 'split' one or the other of the 'major' parties.

This being said, I still believe this argument as to whether man has the ability to choose lesser evils is not in question, it is the ability of fallen man to choose the righteousness of God that is revealed in Christ that is impossible. Thus, a fallen created being has not this ability; it must be through the regeneration of the will of man.

Bro. dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

How could God claim Divine worship from someone who He had stealthily manipulated into compliance with His will via Effectual Calling and Divine regeneration? Sorry it never happen to one soul up until this very hour.

God knocks at the hearts door. [Rev. 3:20] Did God knock down the door of the backsliding saints of Laodocea or did He wait for an entry?

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Brother Dallas,

How could God claim Divine worship from someone who He had stealthily manipulated into compliance with His will via Effectual Calling and Divine regeneration? Sorry it never happen to one soul up until this very hour.

God knocks at the hearts door. [Rev. 3:20] Did God knock down the door of the backsliding saints of Laodocea or did He wait for an entry?

How could God claim Divine worship from someone who He had stealthily manipulated into compliance with His will via Effectual Calling and Divine regeneration? Sorry it never happen to one soul up until this very hour.

I don't understand this question There is nothing 'stealthy' in the operation of the Holy Spirit upon the individual. Whenever the Holy Spirit visits a lost individual this person is aware of the source; Note the fearful hiding of Adam in the garden when God came calling? Why is it so easy to accept that which is founded upon the emotionalism of man, but not that which is founded upon the truth of God?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

I meant stealth in the sense that you believe that God selects all by Himself without giving men and women a choice as to whether or not they want to be saved. Should I use the words 'forced compliance instead?' God does not use forced compliance on sinners in bringing them into His Kingdom. Human beings can resist the grace of God. [Acts 7:51 & John 3:18b]

You skirted my original question. Did God force the Laodocean Christians back into the fold or did he patiently wait outside the heart's door? [Rev. 3:20] If God does not force His own people back into fellowship with Him, neither will He aggressively compel certain, in fact any sinners into His eternal fold.

Maybe someone else can attempt to answer the question above.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Ken, can you say "Straw man?"

Then can I assume you will say the same thing to Ray whose sentence structure I borrowed?
</font>[/QUOTE]Ray said that Calvinism makes God seem like a bully who forces his will upon them. Do Calvinists deny this characterization? Afterall, Calvinism does teach that God does force his will upon others as do bullies. But you say that Arminianism makes God seem like a wimp simply because he gives them a choice, but as I pointed out very clearly, giving someone a choice doesn't constitute "wimpingness" as you assert.

I also pointed to two passages that God calls people to "reason" and "consider the cost" thus proving that God does call us to make a choice and therefore cannot be consider "wimping" for doing such a thing. I also pointed to leaders such as Joshua who called his people, by God's leadership, to make a choice and yet you have ignored those arguments.

If you would rather stick to straw man attacks in which you attack and fail to defend yourself when confronted go right ahead. I'll let you make that choice, does that make me the whimp or you?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
If you would rather stick to straw man attacks in which you attack and fail to defend yourself when confronted go right ahead.

Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Brother Dallas,

I meant stealth in the sense that you believe that God selects all by Himself without giving men and women a choice as to whether or not they want to be saved. Should I use the words 'forced compliance instead?' God does not use forced compliance on sinners in bringing them into His Kingdom. Human beings can resist the grace of God. [Acts 7:51 & John 3:18b]

You skirted my original question. Did God force the Laodocean Christians back into the fold or did he patiently wait outside the heart's door? [Rev. 3:20] If God does not force His own people back into fellowship with Him, neither will He aggressively compel certain, in fact any sinners into His eternal fold.

Maybe someone else can attempt to answer the question above.

Maybe. But I perceive you are awaiting an agreement from an Arminian;

This you cannot receive from Bro. Dallas, so though I answer, you would deny my post as an answer, this simply because you draw no distinctions such as that concerning the Laodocian church is a body of believers (ideally) and as such are not dealt with in the same terms as those who are yet lost in human depravity.

This is plain teaching from scripture, but the plainness is not satisfactory to any who desire to elevate man to a position of the Son of Man.

God Bless.
Bro. dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

' . . . you draw no distinctions such as that concerning the Laodocian church is a body of believers (ideally) and as such are not dealt with in the same terms as those who are yet lost in human depravity.'

Answer: Laodocian church members as well as you and me still have the remnants of the Adamic nature in our lives. [I John 1:8] Beyond this I don't think I have to explain that sinners also have the Adamic nature that causes them to commit acts of sinning.

This is plain teaching from scripture, but the plainness is not satisfactory to any who desire to elevate man to a position of the Son of Man.

Answer: Yes, God elevates His people to the level of being children of God, [John :1:12] and we are characterized by God as being the sons of God [I John 3:2] but with the residue of the Adamic nature within. [John 1:8]

This is one of my favorite verses in all of the Bible. 'Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.' [I John 3:2] In answer to your statement, we have been elevated to a higher position than angels experience. [John 17:23] We are the sons and daughters of the living God. It doesn't get any better than this!