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Featured The Hope in John Calvin

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rockytopva, Apr 15, 2017.

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  1. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Really??? Was it the Church of Santa Monica? I believe that would have been found in the age of beach movies in 2 Beach Boys chapter 3.
     
    #61 MennoSota, Apr 28, 2017
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    What churches existed prior to the baptist churches (doctrinal identity, not denominational name).

    Can you list them for me?
     
    #62 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  3. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    I believe in the seven churches as congregations that came about in ages...

    Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
    Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul (according to foxes there were ten Roman persecutions)
    Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
    Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
    Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid

    So the Sardisean age came with the reformation.

    Messianic (first age)
    Coptic (second age)
    Orthodox (third age)
    Catholic (fourth age)
    Protestant (fifth age)

    In which I have often wondered if John Bunyan was not the first preacher of the Philadelphian church... Especially as he, along with other ana-Baptists, were at odds with the church of England and the Lutheran church of Germany. Even John Calvin, though he did not persecute them, could see little good in them.

    So it could be that the Baptist church is a Philadelphian age church.
     
    #63 rockytopva, Apr 28, 2017
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So you list seven churches which are baptist in faith and practice and say they predate baptist churches? Uh, you do understand the contradiction of that, don't you?
     
    #64 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  5. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    The Anabaptist were persecuted by both the Catholic and magisterial protestants, and were a different breed than anyone before them, but most kin to the apostolic church.
     
    #65 rockytopva, Apr 28, 2017
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Except that is not what we are talking about.
     
    #66 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  7. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    Elements of the Sardisean church can be traced back to Wycliffe, the first to kick against the Thyatirean Catholic church. The Catholic church is a Christian church who allowed the dominating spirit of Jezebel within her congregation.

    The Catholic church was not at all Baptist.
     
    #67 rockytopva, Apr 28, 2017
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    None of this makes any sense simply because the Historic Recapitulation Theory of Revelation has been thoroughly disproved. It is a myth.

    Now, would you care to answer my question? Please name a church that existed prior to the church at Jerusalem.
     
    #68 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  9. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    There was no church prior to the first church, which was Messianic. If you recall in Galatians Paul chastized Peter over the treatment of the second gentile church.
     
    #69 rockytopva, Apr 28, 2017
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So, you retract your claim that churches existed prior to churches of baptist faith and practice?
     
    #70 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    Wikipedia says, "In 1612, Thomas Helwys established a Baptist congregation in London, consisting of congregants from Smyth's church. A number of other Baptist churches sprang up, and they became known as the General Baptists."

    I know of no other Baptist church that existed before then.
     
    #71 rockytopva, Apr 28, 2017
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You seem to have missed the point. I will say it again, baptist is a doctrinal identity and not a denominational name. Can you name a church that existed prior to the churches in the bible that practiced baptist (bible) doctrine?
     
    #72 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  13. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    I hate to say it, but the church did not come off the Ark as the Baptist we know of today. I know it's hard to believe, but its true. I know of no Baptist church before 1600AD.

    The Messianic, Coptic, Orthodox, and Catholic churches are Christian congregations before the Baptist churches that were not Baptist in doctrine.
     
    #73 rockytopva, Apr 28, 2017
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So you believe there were no doctrinally sound churches until 1600? Even the church at Jerusalem was apostate?
     
    #74 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  15. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    Do you consider the Messianic, Coptic, Orthodox, or Catholic churches doctrinally sound? During the Roman persecution bibles were not that readily available!

    How could a church develop doctrine without bibles?
     
    #75 rockytopva, Apr 28, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    We are not talking about those churches which fell into apostasy. We are talking about bible believing churches.

    And even those churches which fell away from sound doctrine had to have fallen from something.

    Now, please stop trying to change the subject. Was the church at Jerusalem doctrinally sound or not?
     
    #76 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  17. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    I believe the second church age was the Smyrnaen or the Persecuted church. And Foxes Book of Martyrs has the persecutions as ten.

    ...Ye Shall Have Tribulation Ten Days…
    Time Persecutor Description
    67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
    81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
    108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
    162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
    192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
    235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
    249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
    257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
    274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
    303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD

    Without a bible I believe the churches relied heavily on tradition. Many to this good day worship the Virgin Mary because they have always did it this way and it gelled into a tradition. The King James Version came alive along with the Baptist church. With a bible in hand they could develop sound doctrine and not rely on tradition as in past congregations.
     
    #77 rockytopva, Apr 28, 2017
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    But that is not what we are talking about. Why do you keep changing the subject?
     
    #78 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Taking the text at face value, there is nothing to support the so-called "historic recapitulation" theory of the 7 churches of Revelation. I think those who see these letters as a "history" of the church start by assuming that all of Revelation is a prophecy of future events, and so the letters must be a prophecy of what will happen in the church before the rapture.

    Some of the problems with this are:

    Revelation just doesn't say that's what these letters represent. Many of the people who take these letters to be stages of church history will, in almost any other context, tell you not to spiritualize a passage because, "If the plain sense makes common sense seek no other sense, lest you get nonsense." (That's the common saying.) But that is exactly what they are doing here! They wind up with nonsense, They are definitely violating their own rules and "spiritualizing" this text when the "plain sense" very much "makes sense."
     
    #79 TCassidy, Apr 29, 2017
  20. Mr. Davis

    Mr. Davis Active Member
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    Before having a complete Bible, they had the letters to the Churches. These were individual documents that the Churches passed around to each other. At this time, and even before it, and continuing into the future, the Holy Spirit would remind those that carried the gospel of the true teachings. This is how the message was carefully handed down. This is a more Biblical definition of "oral tradition."

    Finally, all the documents were bound together and later believers had the complete New Testament. I believe in the plenary inspiration of the Scriptures, and that they are inerrant in content and transmission.

    Some preachers fell away, and started teaching false doctrines; they no longer had God's blessing. These were the wolves in sheep's clothing. They can be identified by their fruit.

    Note: There is only one Church Age: It began at Pentecost, in Jerusalem, and will end when the Lord returns. (Some say that the Church includes the Old Testament saints. This would need to be proved to me by Scripture.)

    The Churches you mention from Revelation are contemporary: they exist side by side. A couple of them receive no admonition from the Lord; others need a warning to get back to their "first love."
     
    #80 Mr. Davis, Apr 29, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
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