The Hopefulness of Calvinism...

[Chris Temple]

I've been reading The Best of A.W. Tozer, and in The Pursuit of God, he says this:

"Christian theology teaches the doctrine of prevenient grace, which briefly stated means this, that before man can seek God, God must have first sought the man. Before a sinful man can think a right thought about God, there must have been a work of enlightenment done within him; imperfect it may be, but a true work nonetheless, and the secret cause of all desiring and seeking and praying which may follow.

We pursue God because, and only because, he has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. "No man can come to me", said our Lord "except the Father which hath sent me draw him", and it is by this very prevenient drawing that God takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming. The impulse to pursue God originated with God; but the outworking of that impulse is our following hard after Him; and all the time we are pursuing Him we are already in His hand: "Thy right hand upholdeth me".

In this divine "upholding" and human "following" there is no contradiction. All is of God, for as Van Hugel teaches, God is always previous. In practice, however, (that is, where God's previous working meet's man's present response) man must pursue God. On our part there must be positive reciprocation if this secret drawing of God is to eventuate in identifiable experience of the Divine."

 

[Nelson]

by Kiffin: Nelson, No offense is taken in that you continue to show a Christian attitude in your debating.

Not everyone would agree with you on that but, thank you.

Calvinists do not see ourselves as robots but really goes to the belief of total depravity. In believing free will one cannot believe one is in total bondage to Satan. Calvinist affirm that the only way to be released from this bondage is not man's will but by God's sovereign grace.

Calvinists, I agree, do not see themselves as robots, however, the Reformed teachings can be interpreted to suggest such notions. For example:

1. Calvinism, at least from what has been stated on this board, acknowledges that God determines everyone’s actions. A robot’s actions are determined by programming it.
2. The concept of free will, which Calvinism teaches, is much the same way a robot is programmed; its actions are according to its nature. A robot cannot act in a way foreign to its mechanical and computer-programmed makeup.
3. A sinner cannot choose God; it is impossible for him to do so because of his sinful nature. A robot, programmed to insert screws into two pieces of wood cannot do otherwise than it has been programmed to do; it cannot refuse to do it nor can it decide for itself to hammer the pieces of wood together with nails.
4. Unless the programming is changed, the robot will act accordingly. In the same way, unless “faith” is “programmed” into the sinner, he cannot choose God.

I live not far from Angola state prison in La. Those men are in physical bondage and have no free will to get them out. A lost person is in in spiritual bondage in a worse way and have no free will to get them out and really they love their bondage.

However, within the confines of their imprisonment, they can choose to behave morally bad or to do what is morally good.

In our Church's Easter evangelism campaign 2 months ago I did not see people as we went door to door willing to come to Christ but happy in their bondage. Thankfully however God does regenerate and bring some people (his elect) to spiritual life and faith in Him.

Happy in bondage does not mean it is impossible to escape it. The idea that it would be impossible to obey God’s command to believe in his Son unless God acted first and “deposited faith” in the sinner relieves the sinner of any moral responsibility and, as a result, of any just condemnation.

If a sinner is thought of as dead to God, almost literally and in an absolute way in that he is unable to turn to God in faith, can he be blamed for it? If he is blamed, can such blameworthiness be constituted as just?

Would a cripple be responsible if he were unable to obey one’s command to walk? Or would the blind be guilty for not obeying the command to see? Are such incapacities rightly judged as “disobedience” and worthy of punishment?

 

[By God's Grace]

1. Do you believe God must first draw lost sinners to Himself before salvation can occur?

John 6:65 II Thes 2:13-14 John 6:44 Romans 3:10-19

2. Does everyone that God draws, come to Him?

John 6:37 *note: the first time the word “COME” is used in this verse it is the Greek word HEKO which means MUST COME.
The second time the word “ COME” is used in this verse it is the Greek word ERCHOMAI which means anyone who chooses to come.
John 6:44 The word draw used in this verse is the Greek word HELKUO (sometimes spelled ELKO) which means to compel by irresistible superiority.
(W. A. Criswell June 1987)

3. Does God draw “all men”?

(The definition of “all men” being every human being ever placed on the face of the earth.)
John 5:21 Romans 9: 18-24

It is particularly important to remember the definitions of the Greek words used in these texts because words like “all men” and “draw” have a multitude of meanings depending on the Greek word used. One must also make use your “interpretation” of the term “all men” does not cause Scripture to contradict itself.

The same Greek word “draw” (helkuo) is used in John 12:32 which states “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” This is a perfect Scripture to test “all men” defined as “every human being ever placed on the face of the earth”. Since the word draw used in this text is “to compel by irresistible superiority” then to interpret that all men is “every human being ever placed on the face of the earth ” would be to interpret that every human being ever place on this face of the earth will receive salvation. That is in contradiction to the Scriptures, since we know there is a hell and that there are souls in hell today. However, it you interpret all men as “men of every nation, class or race” then your interpretation does not cause the Scriptures to contradict themselves.

This goes back to your interpretation of Titus 2:11. The book of Titus must be read in proper context that Paul was speaking to those in Crete, who were already Christians. This was a book on Christian living. And yes, it is a book of man’s responsibility….but our responsibility AFTER we become Christians.

One must consider which of the following questions is correct regarding the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ….

1. Do the Scriptures teach that Christ died for all the sins of all men ?
(every human being on earth)
(if yes, then there is no hell …because all the sins would be paid for in full and hell would not be necessary)

2. Do the Scriptures teach that Christ died for some of the sins of all men ? (every human being on earth)

(if yes, then everyone would go to hell, because ALL SIN must be paid for either by the blood of Jesus or eternal hell)

3. Do the Scriptures teach that Christ died for all the sins of some men ?
(God’s elect)

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by By God's Grace: 1. Do you believe God...

BGG has given two sections (which I refer to as "A" and "B") with three questions each. I will provide a simple yes/no answer following the numbered question of each section:

Section A:
1. yes
2. no
3. yes

Section B:
1. yes
2. no
3. no

 

[By God's Grace]

Nelson:

Considering the Scripture that backs up the Section A questions, what do you do with the Book of John...ignore it?

As for Section B (where you answered that Christ died for all men) what do you do with...
Isaiah 53:11-12 "...Yet He Himself bore the sin of MANY."

Matt. 26:28 "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for MANY for forgiveness of sins."

Mark 14:24 "...This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for MANY."

John 10:11, 15 " I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life FOR HIS SHEEP."
"even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I pay down by life FOR THE SHEEP."

Acts 20:28 "...to shepherd THE CHURCH OF GOD which he purchased with His own blood."

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by By God's Grace: Considering the Scripture that backs up the Section A questions, what do you do with the Book of John...ignore it?

It needs to be specified to which answer the objection is directed.

As for Section B (where you answered that Christ died for all men) what do you do with...Isaiah 53:11-12...he himself bore the sins of MANY."

Let it be assumed that “many” in the various verses presented means, strictly speaking, not all men in general but only the elect in particular (which seems to be your position, if I have correctly understood your post).

Is God the kind of person to tell a sinner whom He predetermined to irrevocably “pass over” and not save, to repent and be saved?

 

[By God's Grace]

Nelson:

Your last question FINALLY hits to the heart of the matter. You demand that God be the "kind of person" who does what YOU deem as "fair".

No, God is not "that kind of person"...because praise God ... He isn't a person.... He is the Sovereign, Almighty, Great I Am, and certainly will never be judged by you or any other human.

He is Holy, Holy, Holy!

Did He not create the Babylonians to enslave the Israelites and then punish the Babylonians for doing what He created them to do???

Did He not order the slaying of every living breathing thing by Joshua at Ai? Children, babies????

Did He not drown all but 8?

You don't deserve heaven. I don't deserve heaven. That is why they call it Grace. And God is the only One who will decide to whom He gives it.

The only thing wrong with Christianity today, is that 99% of the Christians do not have a right view of God. They want what you want...idol worship.

Oh, you will worship "god" as long as he fits into your definition of what and how he should be. And you will ignore the very Scriptures themselves to keep your idol safe!

 

[Nelson]

BGG: Your last question FINALLY hits to the heart of the matter. You demand that God be the "kind of person" who does what YOU deem as "fair".

My question had nothing to do about God being fair; but it had a lot to do about God being truthful.

BGG: No, God is not "that kind of person"...because praise God ... He isn't a person.... He is the Sovereign, Almighty, Great I Am, and certainly will never be judged by you or any other human.

God is not a person? Then he must be a “Sovereign, Almighty” it; or, maybe there is a mistranslation in Exodus and it should read the “Great I'm It.”

BGG: ...certainly will never be judged by you or any other human. He is Holy, Holy, Holy!...

Well, that was an interesting display of exegesis. It would have been easier to say in a few words, "I'm right; you're wrong; and that's that," and saved you the time wasted writing.

BGG: The only thing wrong with Christianity today, is that 99% of the Christians do not have a right view of God.

Had not realized a finite, mortal could possess near divine omniscience so as to pass judgment on the spiritual condition of 99% of the Christian community with such infallible accuracy.

BGG: They want what you want...idol worship. Oh, you will worship "god" as long as he fits into your definition of what and how he should be. And you will ignore the very Scriptures themselves to keep your idol safe!

I must assume you and God have been talking about me seeing as how you seem to know so much about my spiritual condition. Since you have merely offered diatribe unconnected with the discussion, nothing more needs to be stated.

[ May 21, 2002, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Nelson ]