The husband is the kurios of his wife (1 Peter 3:6)

[Olivencia]

You know what I find very 'curious' (pun intended) about this whole thing?

No where does Scripture say that a man is to teach a woman how to be a wife.

It is unbiblical.

Women are to teach other women how to treat their husbands.

--> But they aren't doing it correctly.

Hmmmm.......

This is why I don't listen to other men on how to be a wife.

--> I cited several Greek lexicons (written by men) that agree with me.


This is why I don't listen to other men on how to be a wife. They are not one, they will never be one and those that teach women how to be a wife are usually the ones who prefer to domineer and put women down. I've seen it before and apparently I'm seeing it again.

--> I cited several Greek lexicons. What you call a put down is what God loves. So glad I'm not in America anymore
-----------------------------------------------------
How is this permissible? Seriously? Do we have actual moderators around here?
How does this advance the conversation? How does it speak well of others even in the midst of disagreement?

--> Because they didn't disagree in the sense that they cited any real facts. I cited numerous facts and they went ignored. Read the first 4 posts before I made my response. You will see assertions like:
This is the result when one used bad exegesis and selective scripture selection.
--> But then no proof is offered for such an assertion.
--------------------------------------------------
Olivia is searching (I trust) for the entire meaning - grammar, context, history - not just listing words and meaning and thinking THAT his face reading would be the entire truth.
The Word of God is complex and to just read and think we know the nuances and depth of truth from surface listing of words is ludicrous

--> And Danker, Kittel and Brown who have produced the finest Greek lexicons known to man wouldn't know about such things? No way.
1. Danker on kurios - one who is in a position of authority, lord, master - a. of earthly beings, as a designation of any pers. of high position; of husband in contrast to wife 1 Pt 3:6 (A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and Other early Christian Literature, kurios, page 577).
- Danker then differentiates the use of "sir" --> As a form of address to respect pers. gener.; here, as elsewhere, = our sir
2. Kittel - In marriage Christianity demands the subordination of the wife (hupotassesthai tois idiois andrasin, Eph. 5:22, 24; Col. 3:18; 1 Pt. 3:1, 5 [v.6 : kurios]) but also unselfish love from the husband such as that shown by Christ for the Church (Eph. 5:25, 28; Col. 3:19; 1 Pt. 3:7). (TDNT 1:362, 363, aner).
3. Kittel - Children and wives "stand in a divinely willed relation of subordination" (TDNT 1:223, parakouw). Kittel cites 1 Peter 3:6.
4. Kittel: TDNT 9:217 - ...fear can denote the obedience demanded by the superior authority of masters or husbands as lords (TDNT 9:217, phobew).
5. Brown: In 1 Pet. 3:6 her obedient attitude to her husband is set out as the pattern which Christian wives should follow (NIDNTT 1:80, Abraham - subdivided Sarah).
-----------------------------------------------------------
I am from the USA - born there and lived several decades there. I lived in Japan, South Korea and now the Philippines and really like the mindset of Asian women (many of them). It's absolutely beautiful!

 

[annsni]

You know what I find very 'curious' (pun intended) about this whole thing?

No where does Scripture say that a man is to teach a woman how to be a wife.

It is unbiblical.

Women are to teach other women how to treat their husbands.

--> But they aren't doing it correctly.

Hmmmm.......

This is why I don't listen to other men on how to be a wife.

--> I cited several Greek lexicons (written by men) that agree with me.


This is why I don't listen to other men on how to be a wife. They are not one, they will never be one and those that teach women how to be a wife are usually the ones who prefer to domineer and put women down. I've seen it before and apparently I'm seeing it again.

--> I cited several Greek lexicons. What you call a put down is what God loves. So glad I'm not in America anymore
-----------------------------------------------------
How is this permissible? Seriously? Do we have actual moderators around here?
How does this advance the conversation? How does it speak well of others even in the midst of disagreement?

--> Because they didn't disagree in the sense that they cited any real facts. I cited numerous facts and they went ignored. Read the first 4 posts before I made my response. You will see assertions like:
This is the result when one used bad exegesis and selective scripture selection.
--> But then no proof is offered for such an assertion.
--------------------------------------------------
Olivia is searching (I trust) for the entire meaning - grammar, context, history - not just listing words and meaning and thinking THAT his face reading would be the entire truth.
The Word of God is complex and to just read and think we know the nuances and depth of truth from surface listing of words is ludicrous

--> And Danker, Kittel and Brown who have produced the finest Greek lexicons known to man wouldn't know about such things? No way.
1. Danker on kurios - one who is in a position of authority, lord, master - a. of earthly beings, as a designation of any pers. of high position; of husband in contrast to wife 1 Pt 3:6 (A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and Other early Christian Literature, kurios, page 577).
- Danker then differentiates the use of "sir" --> As a form of address to respect pers. gener.; here, as elsewhere, = our sir
2. Kittel - In marriage Christianity demands the subordination of the wife (hupotassesthai tois idiois andrasin, Eph. 5:22, 24; Col. 3:18; 1 Pt. 3:1, 5 [v.6 : kurios]) but also unselfish love from the husband such as that shown by Christ for the Church (Eph. 5:25, 28; Col. 3:19; 1 Pt. 3:7). (TDNT 1:362, 363, aner).
3. Kittel - Children and wives "stand in a divinely willed relation of subordination" (TDNT 1:223, parakouw). Kittel cites 1 Peter 3:6.
4. Kittel: TDNT 9:217 - ...fear can denote the obedience demanded by the superior authority of masters or husbands as lords (TDNT 9:217, phobew).
5. Brown: In 1 Pet. 3:6 her obedient attitude to her husband is set out as the pattern which Christian wives should follow (NIDNTT 1:80, Abraham - subdivided Sarah).
-----------------------------------------------------------
I am from the USA - born there and lived several decades there. I lived in Japan, South Korea and now the Philippines and really like the mindset of Asian women (many of them). It's absolutely beautiful!

However, you have not shown one itoa of proof that a husband is to make his wife obey him, respect him, reverence him or call him "master". So that's Olivencia's commentary - not God's.

 

[Olivencia]

What do you mean by "make"?
My OP stated evidence based on the best Greek lexicons known to man that so far have yet to be refuted. It has only been denied with "opinions".

 

[ccrobinson]

But they aren't doing it correctly.

It's the height of arrogance to say that a man knows how to teach a woman to be a wife. You don't get to say that the Bible tells you, because you clearly don't have a good understanding of what the Bible says about marriage.

 

[ccrobinson]

What do you mean by "make"?

When you tell your wife that she must address you as master, or lord, because to do otherwise is to disobey God, then you're forcing her to do it.

 

[Olivencia]

It's the height of arrogance to say that a man knows how to teach a woman to be a wife. You don't get to say that the Bible tells you, because you clearly don't have a good understanding of what the Bible says about marriage.

--> I cite several Greek lexicons while you cite your worthless opinion. Thus it is the height of arrogance on your part that denies what the Bible teaches. Have fun with your opinions.
------------------------------------------------------------
When you tell your wife that she must address you as master, or lord, because to do otherwise is to disobey God, then you're forcing her to do it.

--> Nope. Nice try. We discussed this BEFORE our marriage (she only said it to me about a total of two times which is fine). If she didn't want to then she didn't have to. Simple. I prefer a woman to be my wife who obeys the Bible and doesn't go by what she thinks. That's called an opinion. Sound familiar?.....

 

[Mexdeaf]

I prefer a woman to be my wife who obeys the Bible and doesn't go by what she thinks. That's called an opinion. Sound familiar?.....

Here's the matter in a nutshell-

Does she have to go by YOUR interpretation of what the Bible says or can she study on her own and come to her own interpretation?

 

[menageriekeeper]

I cite several Greek lexicons while you cite your worthless opinion.

Since I responded to your 'new' thread, I'm not going to repeat myself here, but:

Do you realize that the authors of your "Greek lexicons" were only giving their opinion? That when you point to them for support that you are going to a source that has a weaker foundation not a stonger one?

The Bible itself is our best bet for understanding the scriptures within. That's why God gave it to us and then gave us the guidance of the Holy Spirit to finish off our instruction.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Since I responded to your 'new' thread, I'm not going to repeat myself here, but:

Do you realize that the authors of your "Greek lexicons" were only giving their opinion? That when you point to them for support that you are going to a source that has a weaker foundation not a stonger one?

The Bible itself is our best bet for understanding the scriptures within. That's why God gave it to us and then gave us the guidance of the Holy Spirit to finish off our instruction.

She's right, Olivencia.

Once they go past giving you the Hebrew or Greek word, they go straight into giving you their own private "opinion" of that word or verse in which it is found. That why I felt no qualms whatsoever in telling you that Kittel was wrong in suggesting that "reverence" can mean a husband scaring his wife by mastering over her. That was only his personal commentary.

You are citing lexicons/commentaries.

It's OK to find the original meanings of words, but that's as far as it should go where "rightly dividing the word of truth" is concerned.

Commentaries are fine to be a aid in understanding scripture, but commentators can be wrong, they are NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit, and they are no substitute for the Word of God.

 

[Olivencia]

Here's the matter in a nutshell-

Does she have to go by YOUR interpretation of what the Bible says or can she study on her own and come to her own interpretation?

--> My interpretation? I have cited several Greek lexicons to support my position. Get a clue.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Do you realize that the authors of your "Greek lexicons" were only giving their opinion?

--> These are lexicons/dictionaries. I'll tell ya what. Supply a source (not your opinion) that differentiates between their opinions and what the words actually mean. This is exactly what happens when I debate many leaders of cults. When shown to be in error they almost always discredit the lexicons because their position are so untenable. Don't like what a word means? No problem. All the lexicons are wrong. Just make up your own meaning. Humpty Dumpty said, When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean.

The Bible itself is our best bet for understanding the scriptures within. That's why God gave it to us and then gave us the guidance of the Holy Spirit to finish off our instruction.

--> What was the New Testament originally written in?
-------------------------------------------
Once they go past giving you the Hebrew or Greek word, they go straight into giving you their own private "opinion" of that word or verse in which it is found. That why I felt no qualms whatsoever in telling you that Kittel was wrong in suggesting that "reverence" can mean a husband scaring his wife by mastering over her. That was only his personal commentary.

--> He did not use the word "scaring" or "scare".

You are citing lexicons/commentaries.

--> You are grasping at straws now in that you are making up definitions for words because you don't like what they really mean. See Humpty Dumpty above. Lexicons are not commentaries. A lexicon is a dictionary especially of Hebrew, Greek or Latin.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lexicon

Yes more authorities can be cited on this.

I am amazed that the tactic used by cults and other heretics when I debate them is now being used here.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Here's the matter in a nutshell-

Does she have to go by YOUR interpretation of what the Bible says or can she study on her own and come to her own interpretation?

--> My interpretation? Part of your username says "deaf" but are you "blind"? I have cited several Greek lexicons to support my position. Get a clue.
--------------------------------------------------------------

I am sure the above would qualify, in your opinion, as a loving response to your wife if she were to dare to ask such a question. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

 

[Olivencia]

I don't have to say the same thing over and over to my wife in order for her to understand. I'm glad that she believes what the Bible teaches rather than simply opinions.
-------------------------------------
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

--> Agree. When someone stands in the way of what God says see Acts 13:10 as well

 

[menageriekeeper]

Do you ever listen to yourself, Olivencia? Cause you're a riot.

First you say that you've cited "several Greek lexicons that agree with me" and then you tell us that Strong's isn't good enough, apparently because his doesn't quite agree with you! Then you say anyone who disagrees with YOU must be in disagreement with the Bible. What are you? The sole defender of the scriptures left on earth?

Do you have any idea who you've been discussing this with? Do you think we are all a bunch of uneducated folk who wouldn't know the difference between Greek and Hebrew? Sorry. You've had some fine minds discussing this with you. Some of these folks are missionaries outside the US, some serve the Lord inside this country. Some have degrees in theology they haven't bothered to share with you. Some have preached the Word for many years. Others take care of their own little corner where God has placed them. But since they don't agree with you, all that must count for nothing, right?

YOU need to climb down off that high horse you have been and stop being insulting.

If you are wondering why no one here has asked who Danker, Kittel and Brown are, its because we already know. We've done the research, we've drawn our own conclusions and I don't see it written anywhere that we must toss our conclusions away simply because YOU don't agree with us.

You'll have a lot better time on this board if you stop acting like a know it all.

 

[Olivencia]

Do you ever listen to yourself, Olivencia? Cause you're a riot.

First you say that you've cited "several Greek lexicons that agree with me" and then you tell us that Strong's isn't good enough, apparently because his doesn't quite agree with you!

--> Strong's gives a general definition of the Greek word using several English words. He isn't anywhere near as specific in applying them to the passages involved. Strong's is OK for that but not for the specifics in applying the word to individual passages.

Then you say anyone who disagrees with YOU must be in disagreement with the Bible. What are you? The sole defender of the scriptures left on earth?

--> No I am not but when it comes to a topic and I cite several Greek lexicons and none are offered to refute them then it is very obvious that the opposition is just basing their ideas on opinions. Believe me I debate with many people in cults and so-called pastors of churches that are heretical and they resort to denying the Greek lexicons as well.


Do you have any idea who you've been discussing this with? Do you think we are all a bunch of uneducated folk who wouldn't know the difference between Greek and Hebrew? Sorry. You've had some fine minds discussing this with you. Some of these folks are missionaries outside the US, some serve the Lord inside this country. Some have degrees in theology they haven't bothered to share with you. Some have preached the Word for many years. Others take care of their own little corner where God has placed them. But since they don't agree with you, all that must count for nothing, right?

--> Where have they cited any Greek lexicons. Take how many and whomever you and match them against Fredrick Danker, Gerhard Kittel and Colin Brown. It won't be much of a comparison.

YOU need to climb down off that high horse you have been and stop being insulting.

--> You need to eduacte yourself.

If you are wondering why no one here has asked who Danker, Kittel and Brown are, its because we already know. We've done the research, we've drawn our own conclusions and I don't see it written anywhere that we must toss our conclusions away simply because YOU don't agree with us.


1. Danker - Daughters of Sarah. Teknon. "of those who exhibit virtues of ancient worthies: children of Abraham Mt 3:9; Lk 3:8; J 8:39; Ro 9:7. True Christian women are daughters of Sarah 1 Pt 3:6" (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, teknon, page 995).
2. Danker on kurios - one who is in a position of authority, lord, master - a. of earthly beings, as a designation of any pers. of high position; of husband in contrast to wife 1 Pt 3:6 (A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and Other early Christian Literature, kurios, page 577).
- Danker then differentiates the use of "sir" --> As a form of address to respect pers. gener.; here, as elsewhere, = our sir
3. Kittel - In marriage Christianity demands the subordination of the wife (hupotassesthai tois idiois andrasin, Eph. 5:22, 24; Col. 3:18; 1 Pt. 3:1, 5 [v.6 : kurios]) but also unselfish love from the husband such as that shown by Christ for the Church (Eph. 5:25, 28; Col. 3:19; 1 Pt. 3:7). (TDNT 1:362, 363, aner).
4. Kittel - Children and wives "stand in a divinely willed relation of subordination" (TDNT 1:223, parakouw). Kittel cites 1 Peter 3:6.
5. Brown: In 1 Pet. 3:6 her obedient attitude to her husband is set out as the pattern which Christian wives should follow (NIDNTT 1:80, Abraham - subdivided Sarah).

--> You've done the research? Citations please of books and authors so the evidence can be read, scrutinized and compared.

--> You've drawn your own conclusions? Yeah I know based on what you want the Bible to teach (eisegesis) not what it actually teaches (exegesis).

--> Thanks but I'll stick with reality...God's reality and not a bunch of fairy tales.

 

[ccrobinson]

I cite several Greek lexicons while you cite your worthless opinion.

Are your lexicons inspired? My so-called worthless opinion is based on the inspired Word of God. I think I'm doing just fine standing on the Word of God rather than listening to your worthless opinions.

Thus it is the height of arrogance on your part that denies what the Bible teaches.

Since I'm not denying what the Bible teaches, your statement has no merit. Again, it is the height of arrogance to say that a man can teach a woman about how to be a wife.

Have fun with your opinions.

My belief in this matter is based on the Word of God. Your belief is based on a Greek lexicon. I like my foundation better than yours.

If she didn't want to then she didn't have to. Simple.

Come on, nobody can be this clueless. Let me spell it out for you. You told her that she had to call you master or she was disobeying God. You then said something along the lines of "you know what happens to those who disobey God." When faced with the prospect of calling you master or disobeying God, she chose what she thought was self-preservation. That's forcing her.

Nope. Nice try. We discussed this BEFORE our marriage (she only said it to me about a total of two times which is fine).

Two times? That's all? She doesn't call you master all the time? Doesn't this mean she's being disobedient? I mean, 1 Peter 3:6 doesn't seem to suggest that Sara called Abraham lord, or master, a mere two times. It suggests that she called him that on a continual basis.

Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

You can make an argument that your wife only had to humiliate herself once for you by calling you lord, or master, once. But, what does it say when she doesn't do this on a regular basis?

If she didn't want to then she didn't have to. Simple.

And, clearly, calling you master twice was humiliation enough and she doesn't want to do it anymore.

I prefer a woman to be my wife who obeys the Bible and doesn't go by what she thinks.

Yeah, those silly woman reading and understanding the Bible for themselves. They need a man to think for them.

I prefer a woman who thinks for herself and who submits to my leading because she wants to, not because I force her to. You prefer a woman who obeys what you tell her the Bible says. That way, the silly woman doesn't have to think. You can do her thinking for her.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Hey, ccrobinson! Did you notice what you just quoted???

The very same verse Oli uses to say women should "fear" their husbands, says for them to "NOT be afraid"!

:laugh:

I think someone has gotten lost in his lexicons instead of in his Bible.

 

[ccrobinson]

I think someone has gotten lost in his lexicons instead of in his Bible.

*snicker*

I love how Olivencia is arguing that women should call their husbands master, but his own wife doesn't even do that.

 

[Olivencia]

I cite several Greek lexicons while you cite your worthless opinion.

Are your lexicons inspired? My so-called worthless opinion is based on the inspired Word of God. I think I'm doing just fine standing on the Word of God rather than listening to your worthless opinions.

--> No rather what you think the word of God teaches. I cite several Greek lexicons while you cite your opinion. You lose.

My belief in this matter is based on the Word of God. Your belief is based on a Greek lexicon. I like my foundation better than yours.

--> No, what Greek lexionS (plural) state. Your belief is based on what your belief is....hello opinion!

If she didn't want to then she didn't have to. Simple.

Come on, nobody can be this clueless. Let me spell it out for you. You told her that she had to call you master or she was disobeying God.You then said something along the lines of "you know what happens to those who disobey God." When faced with the prospect of calling you master or disobeying God, she chose what she thought was self-preservation. That's forcing her.

--> Nope. Find a another man to be her husband. Nice try pal.

Nope. Nice try. We discussed this BEFORE our marriage (she only said it to me about a total of two times which is fine).

Two times? That's all? She doesn't call you master all the time?

--> Where does it say she has to "all the time". It doesn't.

Doesn't this mean she's being disobedient? I mean, 1 Peter 3:6 doesn't seem to suggest that Sara called Abraham lord, or master, a mere two times. It suggests that she called him that on a continual basis.

--> Based on what? Supply the evidence please (this I gotta see)

And, clearly, calling you master twice was humiliation enough and she doesn't want to do it anymore.

--> I leave that up to her for now that I am here in the Philippines and been married several years I see it.

--> Thanks again for supplying your "opinion".

--------------------------------------------
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Hey, ccrobinson! Did you notice what you just quoted???

The very same verse Oli uses to say women should "fear" their husbands, says for them to "NOT be afraid"!

I think someone has gotten lost in his lexicons instead of in his Bible.

--> Wow I would really hope that before you make such uninformed statements like that you would do some research beforehand. It doesn't refer to them not fearing (phobew) their husband but it is in reference to fearing those who would intimidate the wife in being obedient to her husband despite what life throws at them.
Your so-called example shatters when Ephesians 5:33 specifically tells the wife to fear (phobew) her husband. Read it.
Hey menageriekeeper.....thanks for citing your non-existent sources.
__________________

 

[Dr. Bob]

For those concerned and reporting all the violations on this thread (more than a dozen today alone), a warning has been issued, suspension will await unless there is a marked change of language.

Again, be careful. Send a pm to someone if you want to be "in their face", but realize that here in the open forum, every word we say is linked to google searches. People may come in for one phrase and it affect their view of Law and Gospel.

Better a millstone . . .

 

[matt wade]

Olivencia...on a side note, could you please (please?) use a traditional quoting method instead of whatever method you are using now? It makes your posts very difficult to read. Others have commented on it, so I know I'm not the only one.