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"The Husband of One Wife?

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Yeshua1

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A person should still be able to pastor IF the divorce was before getting saved, or if he was not the guilty party, as the wife divorced him.

Sadly, the church does not practice that though very well, as knew of a Pastor who was divorced by his wife, as she "fell in love" with another Pastor, and yet he was never able to re pastor, and was forced to change denominations in order to minister again!
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
There are consequences for our sins, as you described. Are you saying that one of the consequences of being divorced before you were saved is that you'll never be able to grow as a Christian to the point that you can carry out the duties as a Deacon or Pastor?
Let's go back to the basics. A man is married and divorced before he is saved but his divorce is NOT for biblical reasons. After he is saved he is married again. But, according to God's standard for marriage, the man's first wife is still biblically married to him. When he marries again he now has two wives in the sight of God. A man with two wives is not qualified to be a pastor.

And we are not talking about spiritual growth. We are talking about the biblical qualifications to be a pastor or a deacon.

One wife. Qualified.
More than one wife. Disqualified.

If so, wouldn't that mean that if you failed at any of the other qualifications set out in 1 Timothy 3:2 ( such as "above reproach") before you were saved, mean you would suffer the same consequence?
Yes. If you are a drunk, a brawler, etc., then you are not qualified to be a pastor. Just like if you have more than one wife you are not qualified to be a pastor.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Let's go back to the basics. A man is married and divorced before he is saved but his divorce is NOT for biblical reasons. After he is saved he is married again. But, according to God's standard for marriage, the man's first wife is still biblically married to him. When he marries again he now has two wives in the sight of God. A man with two wives is not qualified to be a pastor.

And we are not talking about spiritual growth. We are talking about the biblical qualifications to be a pastor or a deacon.

One wife. Qualified.
More than one wife. Disqualified.

Yes. If you are a drunk, a brawler, etc., then you are not qualified to be a pastor. Just like if you have more than one wife you are not qualified to be a pastor.
IF the first wife had already remarried, would that not null and void the first marriage though in eyes of God then?
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Dr. cassidy - as a former cop,

Been there. Done that.

San Diego Sheriff.jpg

unrecorded threats are almost impossible to successfully prosecute.
But that does not nullify the word of God.

No question if adultery is involved.
Not part of the discussion.

In Paul's time/place, polygamy and concubines were not uncommon.
Just as today. But our polygamy is serial. Marriage after marriage after marriage, with no biblical grounds for divorce. And today we call concubines "mistresses" or "live ins" or "girl friend."
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
IF the first wife had already remarried, would that not null and void the first marriage though in eyes of God then?
If she was already married in God's eyes do you think she was eligible to marry another man at the same time she was still married to her first husband?

And if she was committing adultery with the second man, did her husband divorce her (again?) but this time for adultery?

I am reminded of an old saying my grandmother used to say, "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

We can't fool God. His word stands.

One wife: qualified (in that particular)
More than one wife: disqualified.
 

Jerry W. Ramming

New Member
Yes. If you are a drunk, a brawler, etc., then you are not qualified to be a pastor. Just like if you have more than one wife you are not qualified to be a pastor.
I noticed that your using the present tense. Not "if you were a drunk, if you were a brawler, etc.
I do appreciate your insight on this. Can you please tell me where in the bible it says that any previous transgressions we've committed before our salvation stays with us as an indicator of our worth as we continue to grow in our walk with Christ? I'd like to be able to use it for future reference.
I'm still having a hard time fathoming the fact that there are so many pastors and deacons out there that have never told a lie, took something without asking or disobeyed their parents growing up...
I apparently had been hanging with the wrong crowd growing up.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If she was already married in God's eyes do you think she was eligible to marry another man at the same time she was still married to her first husband?

And if she was committing adultery with the second man, did her husband divorce her (again?) but this time for adultery?

I am reminded of an old saying my grandmother used to say, "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

We can't fool God. His word stands.

One wife: qualified (in that particular)
More than one wife: disqualified.
Paul was adressing them as now being saved in christ correct? Does he even bring up their life before salvation as needy to be pure and spotless ?
I agree with the gist of what you see the scriptures saying here, but where does it state then that God requires us to be only 1 wife before salvation happened?

And if the wife was the one that pushed for the divorce, and she remarried, does not God see the innocent party as now free to remarry in the Lord?
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Can you please tell me where in the bible it says that any previous transgressions we've committed before our salvation stays with us as an indicator of our worth as we continue to grow in our walk with Christ? I'd like to be able to use it for future reference.
If you are not willing to be honest there is no point in continuing. I have never said any such thing, and you know I haven't. Shame on you!

I'm still having a hard time fathoming the fact that there are so many pastors and deacons out there that have never told a lie, took something without asking or disobeyed their parents growing up...
I apparently had been hanging with the wrong crowd growing up.
More dishonestly.

One more time. Man marries then divorces his wife without biblical reason. In God's eyes he is still married to his first wife. When he marries again he now has two wives. Two wives disqualifies him for the pastorate. And, yes, it is all in the present. If he is a liar he is disqualified. If he is a thief he is disqualified. If he has two wives he is disqualified.

If you cannot be honest and discuss the issue, two wives, then we cannot continue.
 

Jerry W. Ramming

New Member
Actually, what you said was;
Yes. If you are a drunk, a brawler, etc., then you are not qualified to be a pastor. Just like if you have more than one wife you are not qualified to be a pastor.

No need to get your nose out of joint... I simply asked for the bible references I could use for when I have this discussion with my friends.
One more time. Man marries then divorces his wife without biblical reason. In God's eyes he is still married to his first wife. When he marries again he now has two wives. Two wives disqualifies him for the pastorate. And, yes, it is all in the resent. If he is a liar he is disqualified. If he is a thief he is disqualified. If he has two wives he is disqualified.
I understand this.... I simply asked for the bible verses so I can continue studying the subject. I'm trying to get all sides to this.
No dishonesty intended, but you know that.....
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
No need to get your nose out of joint... I simply asked for the bible references I could use for when I have this discussion with my friends.
Stop it! RiGHT NOW!

What you said was, "Can you please tell me where in the bible it says that any previous transgressions we've committed before our salvation stays with us as an indicator of our worth as we continue to grow in our walk with Christ? I'd like to be able to use it for future reference."

I have never said that, and you know it! The point is now. Now, a man with two living wives is disqualified for the pastorate. You KNOW that is the point but you keep posting falsehoods about what I said. Shame on you! The Lord rebuke you!
I understand this.... I simply asked for the bible verses so I can continue studying the subject. I'm trying to get all sides to this.
No dishonesty intended, but you know that.....
Again, STOP IT!

You said, "I'm still having a hard time fathoming the fact that there are so many pastors and deacons out there that have never told a lie, took something without asking or disobeyed their parents growing up..."

That is untrue and you know it! I never said nor hinted that anyone never lied, took something or disobeyed. You KNOW I never said or hinted at that. Again you post a falsehood! SHAME ON YOU!
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Some might say Paul is disqualified from being an apostle because before being saved, he helped in the murder of Stephen.
We do know that after being saved, (or claiming to be saved) we should not be too quick to put a person in leadership. Paul discipled some of his eldership for two or three years. Enough time to evaluate a changed life worthy of the body of Christ.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I noticed that your using the present tense. Not "if you were a drunk, if you were a brawler, etc.
I do appreciate your insight on this. Can you please tell me where in the bible it says that any previous transgressions we've committed before our salvation stays with us as an indicator of our worth as we continue to grow in our walk with Christ? I'd like to be able to use it for future reference.
I'm still having a hard time fathoming the fact that there are so many pastors and deacons out there that have never told a lie, took something without asking or disobeyed their parents growing up...
I apparently had been hanging with the wrong crowd growing up.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If she was already married in God's eyes do you think she was eligible to marry another man at the same time she was still married to her first husband?

And if she was committing adultery with the second man, did her husband divorce her (again?) but this time for adultery?

I am reminded of an old saying my grandmother used to say, "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

We can't fool God. His word stands.

One wife: qualified (in that particular)
More than one wife: disqualified.
I am going to have to quote my favorite Calvinist theologian on this one. MacArthur says "This is the overarching requirement for elders; the rest of the qualifications elaborate on what it means to be blameless. Titus 1:6, 7 uses another Gr. word to mean the same thing. faithful to his wife. Lit. in Gr. a “one-woman man.” This says nothing about marriage or divorce".
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Which wife? He has two.
I don't see it that way. It seems most theologians no longer see it that way. I am talking about conservative theologians.
You may be right. I am not 100% sure. I don't really have a dog in the fight because I am not divorced.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
I don't see it that way.
I am sorry to hear that. The bible makes it pretty clear. There is only ONE cause for divorce. Sexual immorality. No sexual immorality, no divorce.

It seems most theologians no longer see it that way.
I disagree. Most understand what Jesus means when He said "It was also said, ‘Whoever shall put aside his wife, let him give her a writing of divorce,’ but I tell you that whoever puts aside his wife, except for the cause of sexual immorality, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries her when she is put aside commits adultery."

The question is simple. If she is no longer married to her first husband, how can her second marriage be adulterous? Simple. She is still married to her first husband!

I am talking about conservative theologians.
No. The fact that they deny Matthew 5:31-32 is proof they are not conservative.

I am not divorced.
Neither am I. I have been married to the same wonderful woman for 42 years. But that is not the point. The point is, do two living wives disqualify a man from the pastorate? I think so. You seem not to have decided and keep trying to find a loophole.

God's word doesn't have loopholes.
 

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
John Gill was a Baptist preacher in England who became a pastor in 1719 and died in 1771. ... Not sure how representative Gill is of all Baptists in England in his day, but this at least trace the "no divorce" idea to 1746, when he published his Exposition of the Whole New Testament.

You might go back earlier. The Westminster Confession (Presbyterian, 1646) set out the grounds for divorce:

" ... In the case of adultery after marriage, it is lawful for the innocent party to sue out a divorce, and after the divorce to marry another, as if the offending party were dead. Although the corruption of man be such as is apt to study arguments, unduly to put asunder those whom God hath joined together in marriage; yet nothing but adultery, or such willful desertion as can no way be remedied by the Church or civil magistrate, is cause sufficient of dissolving the bond of marriage; wherein a public and orderly course of proceeding is to be observed; and the persons concerned in it, not left to their own wills and discretion in their own case."

The Westminster Confession was a major source for the Second London Baptist Confession (1677/1689), yet the London Confession (following the Independent Savoy Declaration of 1658, which the Baptist confession follows more closely than the Westminster) omitted the section on divorce. Whether this reflects a genuine disagreement with the Westminster Assembly, I cannot say. Parliament approved the Westminster Confession minus some sections, including the one on divorce. Did the Independents (and thus the Baptists) ignore the section because they disagreed or because they were unwilling to tread where Parliament had not gone? I am not aware of a definitive answer.

I might also hazard a guess that divorce was not a pressing issue with the 17 century English Baptists. Divorce (which required an act of Parliament) was expensive and a long-drawn-out affair (so to speak) and very few of those Baptists would have the means to seek a divorce even if they desired one.

I would pass on this letter from John Broadus in 1885:

"The case you describe belongs to a class sometimes causing great pain in the action necessary to be taken. To me it seems perfectly plain that our Lord expressly prohibits divorce, except for the cause of unchastity. When, therefore, two persons have been by law divorced on other grounds, and one of them, during the lifetime of the other, marries again, I do not see how a church can recognize this second marriage, or fail to treat it as adulterous. It may sometimes be a very painful action to take."
 
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Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am sorry to hear that. The bible makes it pretty clear. There is only ONE cause for divorce. Sexual immorality. No sexual immorality, no divorce.

I disagree. Most understand what Jesus means when He said "It was also said, ‘Whoever shall put aside his wife, let him give her a writing of divorce,’ but I tell you that whoever puts aside his wife, except for the cause of sexual immorality, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries her when she is put aside commits adultery."

The question is simple. If she is no longer married to her first husband, how can her second marriage be adulterous? Simple. She is still married to her first husband!

No. The fact that they deny Matthew 5:31-32 is proof they are not conservative.

Neither am I. I have been married to the same wonderful woman for 42 years. But that is not the point. The point is, do two living wives disqualify a man from the pastorate? I think so. You seem not to have decided and keep trying to find a loophole.

God's word doesn't have loopholes.
I am not looking for a loophole. I am looking for clear understanding. If it was so clear, other extremely Conservative theologians would not be in disagreement with you.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
If it was so clear, other extremely Conservative theologians would not be in disagreement with you.
Name one conservative theologian who says having two wives does not disqualify a man from the pastorate.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Name one conservative theologian who says having two wives does not disqualify a man from the pastorate.
None - however - when a divorce is granted the woman is no longer the wife of the man.

I have an interesting question:

Suppose a wife leaves her husband (Bill) - she then marries another man (Jim) - in essence she has now committed adultery with Jim.
So could Bill become a pastor since his ex wife has now committed adultery ?

Would he be qualified to be an evangelist?
 
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