The Implications of Original Sin

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Is anyone starting to see what is at stake in all these discussion? Who will be the first to admit the truth that just because Scripture states death came upon all men via the sin of Adam, that that in no wise makes the case that is passed by physical generation or that sin resides in the literal flesh? Who will be the first to admit that the notion of the headship of Adam, known as the 'federal headship scheme or theory' is indeed just that, an unproven theory of man, not actually spelled out in Scripture as such?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I have a question for DHK. Who was sin original with and why?

 

[DHK]

I have a question for DHK. Who was sin original with and why?

Your question must be defined a bit more. Who was sin original with in mankind and why? That answer has already been given. Adam was the first to sin. Why? It was rebellion against God. The Bible says that Eve was deceived, but Adam deliberately rebelled. Perhaps he chose to take the side of his wife rather than to obey God and trust God for what punishment might be imposed upon Eve. Instead he directly rebelled.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Was not Eve told as well not to eat of the tree? Did she not understand God's command? Either she sinned in the rebellion or she did not. If she did not sin, she ate of the fruit and did not die as God said she would the 'very day' she ate of it. What is the truth?

 

[DHK]

Was not Eve told as well not to eat of the tree? Did she not understand God's command? Either she sinned in the rebellion or she did not. If she did not sin, she ate of the fruit and did not die as God said she would the 'very day' she ate of it. What is the truth?

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Timothy 2:14-15)
The sin is accounted to Adam.
1. He is the head of the "household," and therefore bears some responsibility.
2. He was not deceived; Eve was deceived. Adam rebelled.

The Bible says "By one man's disobedience..."
I accept the Bible as true instead of arguing against it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Did Eve sin? Did she die the day she ate of the forbidden tree, ...or is it 'theoretically' (I love that term:thumbs possible she might still be walking around with us somewhere, lurking beneath a coat of badgers skin?

 

[DHK]

Did Eve sin? Did she die the day she ate of the forbidden tree, ...or is it 'theoretically' (I love that term:thumbs possible she might still be walking around with us somewhere, lurking beneath a coat of badgers skin?

Read the account given in Genesis three.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I am not debating Genesis three. I am asking you a simple question. Did Eve sin in her rebellion?

 

[DHK]

I am not debating Genesis three. I am asking you a simple question. Did Eve sin in her rebellion?

What do you think? Was she able to live in the Garden of Eden alone?
Read Genesis 3. What did God say to her? Why do I have to spell it out to you?

 

[The Biblicist]

If Adam's sin affected his posterity (which we know it did) why did not Eve's sin affect her posterity in precisely the same manner...........or will someone dare say she was without sin?

Like Christ, Adam stood in a judicial representative position in regard to his posterity. Eve did not stand in that position. Neither do other father's stand in that position to humanity (Ezek. 18:20). Only Christ is compared to Adam and only Adam is compared to Christ in relationship to "MANY" (I Cor. 15:22; 44-47; Rom. 5:14-19). If you attempt to place any other man or woman in history in this position you do so contrary to the revealed Word of God. That is precisely what you attempt to do with your application of Ezekiel 18;20 and every other human in history.

 

[The Biblicist]

Did Eve sin? Did she die the day she ate of the forbidden tree, ...or is it 'theoretically' (I love that term:thumbs possible she might still be walking around with us somewhere, lurking beneath a coat of badgers skin?

Yes, she died spiritually as soon as she ate of the fruit just as God said.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ok. Then Biblicist, was sin original with her? (It is sorta like who died first in a double homicide.) She ate first, so does not it stand to reason she died first? She died before God even made Adam a head of anything that I have ever read about. Where in Scripture does it say Adam is the federal head of man or that sin is passed down via physical generation through Adam?

 

[DHK]

Ok. Then Biblicist, was sin original with her? (It is sorta like who died first in a double homicide.) She ate first, so does not it stand to reason she died first? She died before God even made Adam a head of anything that I have ever read about. Where in Scripture does it say Adam is the federal head of man or that sin is passed down via physical generation through Adam?

It is really very simple. The answers are all there. Just read the account in Genesis three.

 

[The Biblicist]

Ok. Then Biblicist, was sin original with her? (It is sorta like who died first in a double homicide.) She ate first, so does not it stand to reason she died first? She died before God even made Adam a head of anything that I have ever read about. Where in Scripture does it say Adam is the federal head of man or that sin is passed down via physical generation through Adam?

Let's see???? Does Romans 5:12 say "by one MAN" or by "one female" sin entered the world and death by sin????

Does Scripture compare Christ to any other human being except Adam (Rom. 5:14-19; 1 Cor. 15:22; 44-47) in relationship to "MANY"????????

Original Sin was not passed down to mankind BY Eve only THROUGH Eve as the "mother of all living." It was "BY one man's offence many be dead" not "BY one woman's offence many be dead."

You want to, and so you will continue to ignore these facts of scripture.

1. Only two men in history stand in this relationship to MANY - none of those referred by Ezekiel 18:20 stand in that relationship as you continually misapply the text.

2. Only BY one man's offence many be dead....many were made sinners"

Hence, yes, Eve died spiritually as soon as she ate but it is was not "BY" Eve that "passed" death to "many" but it was "BY one man" - indwelling sin is indwelling death and it is "passed" BY one man to many THROUGH the woman.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

To the list:Shhhh! I am not ignoring Scripture, I am trying to ignore Biblicist for a moment:laugh:

Was sin original with Eve?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Where in Scripture does it say Adam is the federal head of man or that sin is passed down via physical generation through Adam?

 

[The Biblicist]

To the list:Shhhh! I am not ignoring Scripture, I am trying to ignore Biblicist for a moment:laugh:

Was sin original with Eve?

If we are talking about "original sin" as a doctrine the answer is no. Original sin began with original willful violation. Eve was deceived and therefore was not the original sinner by willful defiance.

What you are failing to acknowledge is that Eve was not placed in a relationship to "MANY" and that is the basis of "original sin" as a doctrine. Original sin, as in a sin nature being passed down to "many" did not originate with Eve because Eve never stood in that relationship to "Many."

If Adam had chosen not to willfully sin, Eve would have had sinless children because sin is not passed down to "many" by Eve but "by one man." Yes, she would have eventually died and gone to hell.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: Come on DHK. We are just learning together, not establishing any doctrine at this time, nor are we trying to say 'my theory is better than your theory' or 'its my theory or the highway.'

I am just trying hard not to wear out where we have been, just going over and over the same passages. I am trying to see if there is anything to learn from a different approach to the age old questions.

I would say absolutely Eve sinned and she dies as a result of it. If I were a guessing man I might even say she died when she ate of the fruit and before even Adam tasted it. Sin was as original with her as it was to Adam. How else could have she acquired sin and died as a result of her sin? If she had not sinned, was God keeping her from the tree of Life because of Adam's sin? If Adam lived in the garden without Eve, Eve could have lived in the garden without Adam, would you not agree?

Lets be free with our thoughts here and not simply pull back into old dogmas. Lets just take this a step at a time and see where it leads us, praying that God will grant us the ability to discern even new understanding if He would so be inclined. My self included. If we are not ever learning, that would appear to me to be a real problem. We just need to be certain we are coming to the truth when we do. I have faith God can cause us to accept light and reveal to us truth as He shines it upon our hearts and minds. Don't you?

Good night everyone!

 

[The Biblicist]

If we are talking about "original sin" as a doctrine the answer is no. Original sin began with original willful violation. Eve was deceived and therefore was not the original sinner by willful defiance.

What you are failing to acknowledge is that Eve was not placed in a relationship to "MANY" and that is the basis of "original sin" as a doctrine. Original sin, as in a sin nature being passed down to "many" did not originate with Eve because Eve never stood in that relationship to "Many."

If Adam had chosen not to willfully sin, Eve would have had sinless children because sin is not passed down to "many" by Eve but "by one man." Yes, she would have eventually died and gone to hell.

To all my good friends who disgree with the federal headship of Adam let me ask you this one question.

Does the Bible teach that any other man in history stands in a relationship to "MANY" in regard to his own actions?

1. Those in Ezekiel 18:20 don't

2. Only Christ does?

3. Why would Paul, the same writer of Romans 5:12 call Christ the "last Adam" and the "second" Adam if Adam did not stand in a similar position to "many" as Christ did by his actions - "For IN Adam all die but IN Christ all shall be made alive" - I Cor. 15:22

Why are not "all" in you or me? Why just Adam and Christ? Why not Eve? By the way how does ALL get "IN" Adam?

Who put Adam and Christ in that special relationship with "ALL" and "MANY"???? Why aren't you or me in that relationship by our own personal actions?????

 

[Winman]

To all my good friends who disgree with the federal headship of Adam let me ask you this one question.

Does the Bible teach that any other man in history stands in a relationship to "MANY" in regard to his own actions?

1. Those in Ezekiel 18:20 don't

2. Only Christ does?

3. Why would Paul, the same writer of Romans 5:12 call Christ the "last Adam" and the "second" Adam if Adam did not stand in a similar position to "many" as Christ did by his actions - "For IN Adam all die but IN Christ all shall be made alive" - I Cor. 15:22

Why are not "all" in you or me? Why just Adam and Christ? Why not Eve? By the way how does ALL get "IN" Adam?

Who put Adam and Christ in that special relationship with "ALL" and "MANY"???? Why aren't you or me in that relationship by our own personal actions?????

The Federal Headship Theory is just one of many theories of Original Sin. Many scholars who believe in OS reject it. A. H. Strong a Reformed Baptist theologian objected to this theory.

...It impugns the justice of God by implying: (a) that God holds men responsible for the violation of a covenant which they had no part in establishing...We not only never authorized Adam to make such a covenant, but there is no evidence that he ever made one at all. It is not even certain that Adam knew he should have posterity... (b) that upon the basis of this covenant God accounts men as sinners who are not sinners... (c) That, after accounting men to be sinners who are not sinners, God makes them sinners by immediately creating each human soul with a corrupt nature such as will correspond to his decree. This is not only to assume a false view of the origin of the soul, but also to make God directly the author of sin...

If you do a study of Original Sin you will find there are many various OS theories. They are usually argued from presuppositions and assumptions, not scripture. You will find that theologians have never come to agreement over it.