The Importance of Doctrine

[John of Japan]

Here is a very interesting article by Roger Olson well-known scholar my son has been corresponding with: How Essential is Doctrine to Christianity?

Dr. Olson is very interested in fundamentalism as a scholar of historical theology. He says he will not become a fundamentalist, but agrees with the emphasis on doctrine that fundamentalist churches still have.

 

[canadyjd]

Here is a very interesting article by Roger Olson well-known scholar my son has been corresponding with: How Essential is Doctrine to Christianity?

Dr. Olson is very interested in fundamentalism as a scholar of historical theology. He says he will not become a fundamentalist, but agrees with the emphasis on doctrine that fundamentalist churches still have.

He identified the essential problem in US churches today as the drift away from a concern for the truth.

I find this statement to be insightful. It’s not just drifting away from the truth, but drifting away from CONCERN FOR THE TRUTH.

It is, I think, the result of decades of teaching in the church and out of the church, that objective truth, absolute truth, doesn’t exist. Everything is relative to the individual and feelings are more important than mentally understanding God’s word.

Thanks for sharing.

peace to you

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Very good article! The only problem is that I disagree with most of Roger Olson's doctrine.

 

[37818]

. . . of teaching in the church and out of the church, that objective truth, absolute truth, doesn’t exist.

Absolute truth, even without being so stated, should be the first tenet of what ever is professed.

 

[John of Japan]

Very good article! The only problem is that I disagree with most of Roger Olson's doctrine.

I'm sure he'll forgive you.

But of course it is much better to stand for Bible doctrine, even if sometimes mistaken, than to stand for nothing. As the cliche goes, he who stands for nothing will fall for anything.

 

[John of Japan]

And as is often stated, it is impossible to have no absolutes, for then you must say the absolute that there are no absolutes!

 

[canadyjd]

I remember a speech by Desmin TooToo (sp), I think he was a priest from South Africa.

If I remember correctly, he stated the only thing that cannot be tolerated is intolerance.

I remember folks acting like that was the deepest, most intellectual statement they had ever heard.

The reality was, it gave an excuse to attack everyone with “conservative views” as being intolerant. The belief in absolute truth is, I think, a conservative view.

It has morphed into the belief conservative speech is violence and violence against those with conservative views is free speech.

peace to you

 

[Deacon]

Very good article! The only problem is that I disagree with most of Roger Olson's doctrine.

Roger Olsen, probably best know for his book, Against Calvinism, companion volume to Michael Horton's, For Calvinism.

"I am grateful to Roger for the candor, passion, and informed argumentation that this book represents. At the end of the day, Roger and I share the most important agreement: namely, that the crucial questions involved in this or any other debate must be brought to the bar of Scripture. We both believe that Scripture is clear and sufficient, even if we are confused and weak. We are all pilgrims on the way, not yet those who have arrived at our glorious destination. Only by endeavoring more and more to talk to each other as coheirs with Christ instead of about each other and past each other as adversaries can we engage with serious disagreements—and with the hope that we may also be surprised by felicitous agreements along the way."
Michael Horton, “Foreword,” in Against Calvinism (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011), 11.​

 

[Van]

Yes we should all try to cling to truth, but that is difficult without being intolerant of those claiming to speak truth when speaking falsehood.

For example say someone says thousands of people die from the air pollution caused by EV battery fires. Can this person be considered an advocate of truth?

Many claim my views are not true, can they really believe I am an advocate of truth?

And I did like the thought of post #5 that we should stand for something rather than just nay-say everyone else.

 

[JonC]

Good article.

I've liked Olsen ever since I read an article where he lamented the fact that the Theory of Penal Substitution was declining - not that I share his concern over its decline....quite the opposite.... but I was glad he recognized that churches were increasingly moving from the theory (too many seem in denial, which is a barrier to conversations on the topic).

 

[AustinC]

Roger Olsen, probably best know for his book, Against Calvinism, companion volume to Michael Horton's, For Calvinism.

"I am grateful to Roger for the candor, passion, and informed argumentation that this book represents. At the end of the day, Roger and I share the most important agreement: namely, that the crucial questions involved in this or any other debate must be brought to the bar of Scripture. We both believe that Scripture is clear and sufficient, even if we are confused and weak. We are all pilgrims on the way, not yet those who have arrived at our glorious destination. Only by endeavoring more and more to talk to each other as coheirs with Christ instead of about each other and past each other as adversaries can we engage with serious disagreements—and with the hope that we may also be surprised by felicitous agreements along the way."
Michael Horton, “Foreword,” in Against Calvinism (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011), 11.​

If you like scholarly discussion in topics you may wish to listen to Mike Horton and his friends at The White Horse Inn.

 

[AustinC]

Moralistic Therapeutic Deism: The Religion of the United States.

 

[Alan Gross]

Right, because this, in itself, would be an absolute.

the absolute that there are no absolutes

 

[Alan Gross]

From tyndale1946 on the post about Pink.

"Well these are the books I've read by Pink... His gleaning series... Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, Elisha. The Live Of David, Total Depravity, Exposition on John and Hebrews, Why Four Gospels? and The Seven Sayings Of Christ On The Cross..."

Cool.

Pink was worth about 500 times his weight in doctrine.

I think that is the way to be.

COLLECTION OF A.W. PINK'S WRITINGS

 

[AustinC]

Here is a very interesting article by Roger Olson well-known scholar my son has been corresponding with: How Essential is Doctrine to Christianity?

Dr. Olson is very interested in fundamentalism as a scholar of historical theology. He says he will not become a fundamentalist, but agrees with the emphasis on doctrine that fundamentalist churches still have.

Dr John Gerstner's "Handout Church History" series (39 audio lectures) is great. He was a historical theologian who mentored RC Sproul. I highly recommend this refresher course.
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/handout-church-history

 

[Van]

Quote from link in post #12:
"Moralistic Therapeutic Deism consists of beliefs like these: 1. "A god exists who created and ordered the world and watches over human life on earth." 2. "God wants people to be good, nice, and fair to each other, as taught in the Bible and by most world religions." 3. "The central goal of life is to be happy and to feel good about ones self." 4. "God does not need to be particularly involved in one's life except when God is needed to resolve a problem." 5. "Good people go to heaven when they die.""

1) Yes God exists and "ordered" (established natural law) our created planet, and does watch over human life on earth.

2) God wants people to "Love God with all their heart, mind and soul, and to love their neighbor as themselves."

3) Religions other than Christianity are tribal, advocating a we/them world view.

4) Yes, the Bible teaches we are to love God and enjoy life.

5) The central question of the gospel is: "Do we depend upon God or upon something else?

6) Prayers asking God to intervene and miraculously alter our circumstances are not effective prayers.

7) There are no "good people" and unless redeemed by God and washed by the blood of Jesus, everyone suffers eternal punishment in the afterlife.

 

[AustinC]

Quote from link in post #12:
"Moralistic Therapeutic Deism consists of beliefs like these: 1. "A god exists who created and ordered the world and watches over human life on earth." 2. "God wants people to be good, nice, and fair to each other, as taught in the Bible and by most world religions." 3. "The central goal of life is to be happy and to feel good about ones self." 4. "God does not need to be particularly involved in one's life except when God is needed to resolve a problem." 5. "Good people go to heaven when they die.""

1) Yes God exists and "ordered" (established natural law) our created planet, and does watch over human life on earth.

2) God wants people to "Love God with all their heart, mind and soul, and to love their neighbor as themselves."

3) Religions other than Christianity are tribal, advocating a we/them world view.

4) Yes, the Bible teaches we are to love God and enjoy life.

5) The central question of the gospel is: "Do we depend upon God or upon something else?

6) Prayers asking God to intervene and miraculously alter our circumstances are not effective prayers.

7) There are no "good people" and unless redeemed by God and washed by the blood of Jesus, everyone suffers eternal punishment in the afterlife.

I wonder if you are correct with #6?

*Revelation 8:2-5*
Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

Prayers may not be answered immediately, but all prayers are effective in that they are a pleasing aroma to God.

 

[Alan Gross]

I believe we all should be " worth our weight" in doctrine.

Examples: Doctrinal & Practical Divinity, by John Gill.

Gill Body of Doctrinal Divinity

John Gill: Body of Practical Divinity - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[kyredneck]

16 take heed to thyself, and to the teaching; remain in them, for this thing doing, both thyself thou shalt save, and those hearing thee. 1 Tim 4 YLT

 

[canadyjd]

Here is a very interesting article by Roger Olson well-known scholar my son has been corresponding with: How Essential is Doctrine to Christianity?

Dr. Olson is very interested in fundamentalism as a scholar of historical theology. He says he will not become a fundamentalist, but agrees with the emphasis on doctrine that fundamentalist churches still have.

Part of drifting away from the concern for the truth is the way we view scripture.

Scholars of old would debate scripture, the meaning of those words and phrases in the context of the time when they were written. In other words, the foundation of debate were the words of scripture and acceptance they were from God.

I remember a teacher telling me he disagreed with Paul’s interpretation of the Old Testament. I was stunned by the arrogance on the one hand and the disregard for biblical truth on the other.

Others are not quite so bold. They will take a passage and instead of trying to understand the meaning of the words or phrases, they will give their own interpretive translation, ignoring centuries of biblical scholarship by Godly men and women that devoted decades of their lives to studying the Biblical languages.

So we are left debating past one another, not even agreeing on what the words of scripture are, much less what they mean.

peace to you