The Independent Catholic Movement

Hi DHK,

You wrote, "Why don't you quote the full quote in the dictionary? Why just a partial quote?"

I wasn't aware that all dictionaries are codified like Scripture. Being now aware of this latest, ground-breaking development, I would say that it's because cor_unam is trying to conceal the truth: that we Catholics are really worshipping under the guise of "veneration." Oh dear cor_unam, not quoting the whole Dictionary excerpt again are you? *tisk* *tisk*

Please excuse me while I place flowers on my grandfather's tomb, while, all the while, I'm really just worshipping him under the veil of "veneration"..

Considering that your esoteric knowledge of our hearts condemns us, I stand condemned.

God bless,

Carson

 

Majoring on the minors, Carson? or minoring on the majors? Please explain the concept of "ancestor worship" among the Confucionists and Shintoists, as they venerate and worship their ancestors.

Please explain the Ten Commandments in the light of Roman Catholic practice of bowing down to images such as the stations of the cross:
Thou shalt not make unto me any graven image...Thou shalt not bow down unto them

Don't be like the others and rationalize it away as a formality like bowing down in front of a queen, or some dignitary, because that command is not talking about such things and you know it. If the Catholics have a problem with Scripture then they have a problem with God. The message is quite clear. Don't bow down to graven images.

Please explain why the Lord God Jehovah was so specific and adamant that no person should ever bow down before any graven image or any likeness of Him. Is it perhaps that the action of bowing down is the same as worshipping?
DHK

 

DHK, you are a self admitted idolater then, by your own definition!!!

My Random House Dictionary says:

re-spect - revere, venerate

Now the light of day shines on DHK and his hypocritical ancestor worship!!

DHK, come out of your idolatrous pagan ways!!

 

DHK wrote, "Is it perhaps that the action of bowing down is the same as worshipping?"

Guys, Broadway must have a real problem of actors worshipping the audience. Boycott Broadway!

 

DHK,

You say you were a Catholic? Did you do the Stations of the Cross? If so, did you feel (as you say we do) that you were bowing down before and woshipping the figures on the wall? Or, did you feel (as I know I do) that somehow you were accompanying Jesus and Mary through that final walk and His crucifixion and burial?

If going to the Stations left you empty, then you missed the whole point of it. Going to the Stations leave me emptied. Emptied of self, and filled with adoration for a God who emptied himself and suffered so much that I might have eternal life.

That's the point of Catholic prayer and practice, to focus our thoughts, our hearts, our lives on the Triune God and the salvation He gave us.

God Bless you, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[ April 07, 2002, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Glen Seeker ]

 

DHK,

First off, the Pope is not a graven image. Nor is he an idol. Nor is he God. Nor do we believe him to be God. Nor do we believe him to be equal to God. Nor do we worship him.

But you say we do.

So we have Catholics, who all agree that worshipping anyone other than God is evil. And we worship no one other than God. But you say we do.

You have no idea what are hearts are feeling in our actions...you can only guess.

Well, I guess that you're a bitter person who was left scarred from a horid experience in the Catholic Church, and is willing to do anything to tear it down...to make yourself feel better about it.

Granted, I can't prove it. But neither can you prove that we are worshipping false gods. You want to believe we are, and so you STATE that we are. You pretend to know our innermost feelings. You pretend to know what we say, act, and do outside this Internet bulletin board.

Tell me, do you go to sleep feeling that you've served the Lord well? Reevaluate, and carefully think through how you treat people who you disagree with. Think through how you TELL US what we believe and don't believe. Think through if that is the Lord's will.

 

OKAY, OKAY, I admit it! I worship the stations of the cross. I mean, I didn't want to at first, but the stone renditions are just so pretty.. and luring..

[ April 07, 2002, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Again, Carson:
Majoring on the minors and minoring on the majors. If you cannot deal with a logical argument from Scripture, then why say anything at all?
DHK

 

Yes I did the stations of the cross as a Catholic, and yes you are right in that they did not do anything special for me. How could they. They are images made by the hands of men. God doesn't live in images made by hands, and is not confined to such. At that time I was not saved; I was not born again. Every Catholic that I have ever talked to since I was saved (personally), has either trusted their church, their baptism, their good works, or their confirmation for their salvation. Not one of them have ever said that they have trusted Christ. I was the same way. I trusted in the Church, not Christ. I had religion, but not a Saviour. Now it is different. I don't have a religion; I have a relationship--with Jesus Christ my Saviour.
No amount of feeling gained by kneeling in front of man-made statues is ever going to replace the joy I found in Christ. Nothing can replace the peace I found in Him. Nothing can compare to the love that He bestowed on me. The Bible commands us to flee from idolatry, not to redefine it.
DHK

 

I don't know about the other Catholics on this board, but I sure am glad that I'm saved because I kneel in front of statues and conjure up good feelings. I mean, who needs faith in Christ when you have such beautiful, luring statues..

Also, who needs to entrust oneself to Christ when you can let the Church save you. I remember back when the Church died on the cross for me.. the memories.

I remember when I was in the same position as DHK.. thankfully, I was evangelized by a Catholic community in college.

[ April 07, 2002, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

DHK,

You keep saying that your dictionary says "ancestor worship," when in fact it never says the word worship.

This seems to be a common practice with you, sticking words in where you please. However, this is the dictionary. You can't do that. If the word "worship" isn't included in the dictionary, how do you justify repeatedly adding it?

Oh yeah, you can't.

 

Get a grip of yourself Grace, and stop the false accusations as you are so prone to do. I never said that the dictionary said, "ancestor worship."

I gave you an exact quote of the dictionary, which I will give for you again:

Veneration: 1. a feeling of deep respect; reverence: veneration for learning. to hold one's grandfather in veneration. 2. the act of showing respect and reverence: An important teaching of Confucius was veneration of one's ancestors. 3. the condition of being venerated. Such veneration seems strange to the Western World.

There is the quote. Read it carefully. "An important teaching of Confucius was veneration of one's ancestors." I teach World Religions, Grace. I said that that relgions such as Confucionism and Shintoism believe and practice "Ancestor Worship." Now this is really simple reasoning. What is commonly called "ancestor worship," is called veneration by the dictionary. They venerate/worship their ancestors. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.DHK

 

You are still unable to answer straight questions out of the Bible aren't you? Is it perhaps that the Catholic Church has no Biblical stand on this?

Ex.20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
DHK

 

DHK,

Do you talk to your students the way you talk to Catholics on this board? If they disagree with you in class, do you speak to them in such a condescending tone?

 

DHK,

The Pope is not a graven image. Thanks.

 

DHK,

What amazes me is that out of the various dictionary meanings for veneration, since a false religion uses vereration as "worship," that means Catholics do too.

You know, even though Catholics tell you over and over again that veneration means devout honor and respect, which is described in the dictionary, because there is one of the many definitions that relates to worship, even though it talks of a non-Christina religion, you associate it DEFINITIVELY as referring to Catholics.

You get a grip, DHK.

 

DHK,

I speak out of both sides of my mouth, just like the dictionary does. There is more than one meaning to words.

Your argument is weak, because you purposefully conclude that the definitions that you want to believe are true are the ones that apply to Catholicism, even though Catholicism continues to demonstrate that they are using the other meanings of the words.

So, we have the Catholic teaching which says one thing.

We have the dictionary, which has support for the words in our beliefs.

There are other meanings for the words in the dictionary.

You take those, apply them to Catholic teaching, and demand that this is what Catholics teach and believe.

As my English professor often says, "This is pleasant fiction."

 

Hi DHK,

I wanted to respond to some of your questions and statements. I hope this post finds you doing well and enjoying God's blessings.

Gladly. First of all, lets look at some Scripture (I'll even be nice and use the KJV that you love so much).

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them..." (Exodus 20:4-5).

"Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the simultude of any figure, the likness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, the likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground...Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God...and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee." (Deuteronomy 4:16-18; 23).

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole...And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole..." (Numbers 21:8-9).

"And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them...And the cherubim shall stretch forth their wings on high...and their faces shall look one to another..." (Exodus 25:18; 20).

Do I have to point out the fact that what is prohibitted by God in Exodus and Deuteronomy is idolatry, or worship of false gods (such as images). God was evidently not outlawing any and all images for religious purposes seeing as how he commanded the building of the Arc of the Covenant (complete with golden Cherubim) and the serpant of brass.

I won't even attempt to get into a ridiculous argument about whether or not "bowing" equates "worship" as I think common sense and experience scream that it does not.

As for what the Catholic Church actually teaches about the use of sacred images, here it is "from the horse's mouth," as it were:

"The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscibes idols...The honor paid to sacred images is a 'respectful veneration,' not the adoration due to God alone." (CCC 2132).

The clear teaching of the Church is that one's respect for sacred images is not "the adoration due to God alone," or latria. That is the official teaching of the Church.

If one wants to argue that some individual Catholics nonetheless do worship images (or people), than that is idolatry and for that they are outside of the Church. Period.

The view that one should have no venerable religious images is a heresy called "iconoclasm" which was condemned as unfaithful to the Christian tradition at the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea in the year 787.

Actually, according to Scripture, the message is only "clear" when you read verses 4 and 5 (not just the first line of verse 5): "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them..." The message is clear: No other gods before God, not even man-made ones.

And all of God's people said, "Amen!"

That is truly sad. But the misunderstanding and non-Catholic teachings that seem to permeate you and "every Catholic you have ever talked to since you were saved" have nothing to do with the actual teachings of the Church which are that "Salvation comes from God alone" (CCC 169).

Once again, all of God's people said, "Amen!"

God Bless.

In Officio Agnus,
Deacon's Son

[ April 08, 2002, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Deacon's Son ]