The Israel of God

[kyredneck]

1 For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh.
2 Else would they not have ceased to be offered? because the worshippers, having been once cleansed, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance made of sins year by year.
4 For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, But a body didst thou prepare for me;
6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hadst no pleasure:
7 Then said I, Lo, I am come (In the roll of the book it is written of me) To do thy will, O God.
8 Saying above, Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein (the which are offered according to the law), Heb 10

 

[kyredneck]

By the way, who exactly is this Scofield you speak of?.....

Give me a break. You're nigh to insulting my intelligence now with your charade.

 

[kyredneck]

...And also, let me know if you are okay with men posting this on another forum (my own), as I like to document discussions on certain subjects.....

Would you provide a link to your forum? I didn't see it in your profile.

 

[Darrell C]

1 For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh.
2 Else would they not have ceased to be offered? because the worshippers, having been once cleansed, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance made of sins year by year.
4 For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, But a body didst thou prepare for me;
6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hadst no pleasure:
7 Then said I, Lo, I am come (In the roll of the book it is written of me) To do thy will, O God.
8 Saying above, Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein (the which are offered according to the law), Heb 10

So you justify negating the entire Old Testament due to your misunderstanding of the context?

Again...


Hebrews 9:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:


What you are missing is that the writer uses Levitical Service as a contrast for that which it signified, which is the reality, not the parable.

Here we see that they went in under God's direct command...with blood.


9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


This point will be reiterated in your proof-text:


Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


You overlook that they were offered, according to the Law...for atonement. You simply cannot read the Law and not see that. One would have to blatantly disregard what is taught in the Law to deny atonement through those sacrifices.

In view here is that while they brought atonement, they were but a parable, temporarily given, until Christ should come. They pictured the Cross of Christ.

The taking away here is taking away sins permanently, specifically the penalty for sin. This is why animal sacrifice ended, because remission was made possible that was...perfect. Which simply means complete. The Law and Levitical Service was incomplete, not ineffective to bring atonement.

But the atonement it brought was not complete as it is in Christ. The writer exhorts leaving the Law, the First Covenant, for the New, in which they would receive remission of sins in completion:


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


The writer does not, as you suppose, negate atonement from the sacrifices of the Law. What he does do is contrast the quality of the two, incomplete versus complete. Continually offered due to sin and the Once For All offering of Christ, which makes those set apart unto God forgiven forever, never requiring additional sacrifice.

The "will" of verse 10 is in regards to your other proof-text:


Hebrews 10:5-8

King James Version (KJV)

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;


We know he doesn't mean God would not prescribe sacrifice for atonement...that would stand in conflict with the Law itself.


Hebrews 10:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


What is taken away here, KR?

It is the First Covenant. That is what the writer has been talking about.

How is it taken away?

Through that One Time offering of Christ. Through establishing the New Covenant and bestowing the promises only promised prior to that.

And complete remission of sins is just one of those:


Hebrews 8:7-13

King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


I have also emphasized the references to the New Covenant here. Here is where you at least need to start to understand the context of ch.10.

God does not destroy the Law, nor was the fault with the Law. The fault was with men.

Paul states...


Galatians 3:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.



Again, instead of seeking proof texts for your doctrine, you addressed the clear statement of atonement in the Law through vicarious death of animals, you might begin to understand something that will help you better understand the Atonement.

And really have to get going.


God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

...And also, let me know if you are okay with men posting this on another forum (my own), as I like to document discussions on certain subjects.....

Would you provide a link to your forum? I didn't see it in your profile.

 

[Darrell C]

Would you provide a link to your forum? I didn't see it in your profile.

Sent in a PM. I'm not here to recruit members...only antagonists.



God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

Thanks. I was looking for some sort of doctrinal statement but haven't found one yet.

 

[One Baptism]

...I don't see a yes or no would have been sufficient, because we can answer yes and no. It's not a yes or no question or issue.

I ask you...has Christ come?

Yes or no?

Jesuits... [sigh]

Yes.

You did not ask if Christ came "again", only if Christ came. Therefore, yes.

If you had asked if Christ Jesus came "again" (iow, second time), the answer is, "No."

If you had asked if Christ Jesus came "third time" (as Scripture reveals), the answer is, "No."

Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:13-15.

Is Christ Jesus the one who "fulfilled" Hosea 11:1, according to Matthew 2:13-15, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, please answer, Yes or No. Reciprocation would be welcomed.

"In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips [is] wise." - Proverbs 10:19​

Jesuit counter-reformation theology (not derived from Scripture) is where 'futurism' (and that which is like) originated, documented and traced through its history - http://www.biblelight.net/antichrist.htm

 

[One Baptism]

...So show me the one born...regenerate? Show me born again believers in the Old Testament Economies...

From the very days of Adam and Genesis 3:15 "the seed":

"And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD." - Genesis 4:26​

Follow that through the whole Scripture.

Continued:

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. - Deuteronomy 10:16

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. - Deuteronomy 30:6

Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings. - Jeremiah 4:4​

Furthermore:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. - Ezekiel 36:26

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. - Ezekiel 36:27​

King Saul Himself was 'born again', before he later apostatized and grieved away the Holy Spirit of God:

And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. - 1 Samuel 10:6

And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, [that] thou do as occasion serve thee; for God [is] with thee. - 1 Samuel 10:7

And it was [so], that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. - 1 Samuel 10:9​

For Saul's continued rebellion:

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. - 1 Samuel 16:14

"... Saul, ... answered, I am sore distressed... and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams..." - 1 Samuel 28:15​

As it is written then, brother, in charity:

And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? - Mark 12:24​

 

[One Baptism]

The Everlasting Gospel:

A Sower went forth to Sow…

And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; Matthew 13:3​

What are the Scriptures speaking about? The Gospel, that sweet Mystery, and The Kingdom of Heaven thereof:

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Matthew 13:11

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: Matthew 13:24​

Many have desired to hear what ye are about to hear today, to see what ye see today, and to know what ye shall know hereafter:

For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. Matthew 13:17​

Who is the Sower? It is Jesus Christ:

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; Matthew 13:37​

What is the Field? It is the world:

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; Matthew 13:38​

What is the purpose of the sowing? To reap a Harvest:

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matthew 13:30​

When is the Harvest? At the end of the world:

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. Matthew 13:39​

What is Harvested? The souls/persons of men:

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matthew 13:30

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; Matthew 13:38

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; Matthew 13:41​

But this is a parable, that includes not merely the end of the world, but even those things that had been kept secret/hidden from the foundation of it:

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Matthew 13:35​

Therefore, there was a cycle of 6 sowing, a reaping, and the 7th was to be the Sabbath of rest, yes?

And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof: Exodus 23:10

But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Exodus 23:11

Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof; Leviticus 25:3

But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard. Leviticus 25:4​

The Everlasting Gospel. What is it?

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, Romans 16:25

And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, Ephesians 6:19

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Colossians 1:27​

The 7th Day is the time when God and man are to be in atonement!

The Gospel itself teaches it! Creation teaches it!

Notice...

The same Everlasting Gospel as is preached in Revelation 14:6-7, is the same Gospel as given in Genesis 3:15, preached by Noah [1 Peter 1:11-12, 3:18-20], and as given unto Abraham [Galatians 3:6-8] and Israel [the peoples, that church in the wilderness; Hebrews 4:2,6; Acts 7:38], Isaiah [Isaiah 52:7; Romans 10:16] and Nahum [Nahum 1:15], all long gone, but the Gospel was still preached unto them [1 Peter 4:6].

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Revelation 14:6

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Revelation 14:7

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1:11

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 1 Peter 1:12

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1 Peter 3:19

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1 Peter 3:20

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Galatians 3:7

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Galatians 3:8

How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? Romans 10:16

Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off. Nahum 1:15

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Peter 4:6​

Go to Creation and look at the days again, and this time see the 7,000 year pattern there in relationship to the Everlasting Gospel itself!

Before beginning this, let it be made most clear that the events of Genesis 1-2 are literal, taking place as it is written, and the days thereof, are 6 consecutive literal 24hr days with evening and morning each and ending in the 7th.

Day time is 12 hours, and so too the night, for the Day is divided into light and darkness:

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. John 11:9

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Genesis 1:4

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1:5​

However, there is much more in these literal days, which demonstrate for us a far grander picture of the plan of salvation, even as the events of history which took place in the lives of Abraham and Isaac, and others throughout the Scripture, truly they also demonstrate in miniature a far greater reality. For Peter, Paul and John speak of these things in the context of Genesis. Notice with me please…

 

[One Baptism]

A DAY WITH THE LORD IS AS A 1000 YEARS

Now, I show another mystery... in the Light of Genesis, the Glorious Gospel...

The real literal days of Creation, but now seen in something far greater...

What happened in the 1st Day of Genesis?

1st Day - God said, "Let there be Light..." [Genesis 1:3], and separated the light from the darkness, and this also calling us out of darkness into his Light, and so that the children of the Day and of the Night may be made manifest [1 Thessalonians 5:5].

But let us look in the Days with the Lord, even as a thousand years [2 Peter 3:1-18, especially vs 8] …

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8​

Since it is written that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, then:

What happened in the First day “with” God?

In the first 1,000 Years, after the fall of Adam [for Adam lived just short of the full day “with” God, Genesis 5:5, 2:17], in Genesis 3:15 we see the Everlasting Gospel go forward. ... "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." [Genesis 1:3];

What Light went forward in the first 1,000 years?

It was verily:

"...the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God... For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." [2 Corinthians 4:4-6] shone forth with blazing power to save...

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Genesis 3:15

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Genesis 1:3

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 2 Corinthians 4:5

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:6​

The 2nd Day - God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters....divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament..." [Genesis 1:6-7]

In the Second 1,000 years, in the times of Abraham, the Gospel was made known unto him [Galatians 3:6-8], and so God called out a person who was to become a great nation, a multitude, a nation in whom all the earth would be blessed [Genesis 15:4-6, 18:18], calling Him and his out from Ur [Babylon], for "...The waters...are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." [Revelation 17:5], and God separated the waters, A Heavenly body of waters, from the earthly body of waters, a heavenly [spiritual] peoples, from the earthly [carnal] peoples [Acts 7:2-5], and placed a space between them, and open division, clear, and without mixture, and from this Abraham would the seed come [Genesis 15:5, 18]...

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Galatians 3:7

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Galatians 3:8

And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. Genesis 15:4

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Genesis 15:5

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:6

And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran, Acts 7:2

And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee. Acts 7:3

Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell. Acts 7:4

And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. Acts 7:5

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:18

Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? Genesis 18:18

And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Revelation 17:5​

The Third Day - God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so." [Genesis 1:11]

In the Third 1,000 years, in the time of Moses, the same Gospel was also preached [Hebrews 4:2,6; Acts 7:38], and among the grass [Psalms 103:15; Isaiah 51:12; 1 Peter 1:24], that Nation of the line of Abraham, was brought forth from out of Egypt [a symbol of the earth [worldliness]], and Israel, was to be a fruit bearing Tree [Luke 13:6-7; John 1:48-50; Romans 11:17,24, etc], whose seed [the Gospel and Christ; Genesis 3:15] was in itself, came forth to bear much fruit...

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Hebrews 4:2

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Acts 7:38

As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth. Psalms 103:15

I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass; Isaiah 51:12

For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 1 Peter 1:24

He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Luke 13:6

Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? Luke 13:7

Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. John 1:48

Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. John 1:49

Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. John 1:50

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Romans 11:17

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? Romans 11:24​

 

[One Baptism]

The Fourth Day - God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: ... let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth... And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.", thus the Sun, Moon and stars shone forth...

In the Fourth 1,000 years, The Seed Himself, Christ Jesus [Galatians 3:16], the glorious light of the Gospel [2 Corinthians 4:4-6], the Sun of Righteousness arose [Malachi 4:2], the blazing True Light [John 1:7-9, 8:12; Revelation 1:16] and was born into the world [Luke 3; Revelation 12:2-5], and the moon [the lesser light, like John the Baptist [John 1:6-8,15, 5:35], and the scriptures [Psalms 119:105; John 5:39; Luke 24:27; etc]] reflected His glory, and the true and unwandering stars shone to magnify Him [His people; Proverbs 4:18; Matthew 5:14; Revelation 1:6, etc; John, James, Peter, Paul, Apostles, Disciples, martyrs, saints, remnant; etc] each lighting the earth with their light, the lesser lights in submission to the Greater [John 1:4-9].

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 2 Corinthians 4:5

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:6

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. Malachi 4:2

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Luke 4:18​

Jesus is the True Light, which lighteth every candle:

[That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. John 1:9

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. John 8:12

And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. Revelation 1:16​

The Messenger/Prophet of the Lord [like John the Baptist, or us] is always the lesser light, testifying to the Greater [Jesus]:

There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. John 1:6

The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe. John 1:7

He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light. John 1:8

John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. John 1:15

He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35

But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. Proverbs 4:18

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Mathew 5:14​

The Bible itself [OT and NT, the Law and the Prophets] is also the lesser light to point unto Jesus:

NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalms 119:105

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:27​

All prophets/messengers must be tested by what is written in Scripture:

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 1 Corinthians 14:32

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16:13

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them. Isaiah 8:20​

The Fifth Day [shortened] - God brought forth life from the waters and they were told to be fruitful and multiply...

In the Fifth 1,000 years, the waters of life, bring life, and multiplies and were fruitful, the Everlasting Gospel begins to spread to the whole inhabited world, every Nation... to every Creature [Matthew 28:19; Mark 13:10, 16:15; Acts 1:8; Colossians 1:23,27, to Jew and Gentile] and continues to fill the earth...

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:29

And the gospel must first be published among all nations. Mark 13:10

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Colossians 1:23

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Colossians 1:27

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. John 4:14​

[See also Exodus 17:6; Psalms 114:8; 1 Corinthians 10:4; Jeremiah 2:13; John 4:11, 7:38; Revelation 21:6, 22:1,17, etc]

...and the "Living Water"...

"... he would have given thee living water." John 4:10;p

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:38

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:4​

The 6th Day - God made perfect and sinless man, man in His own image, and a marriage… [shortened]

In the Sixth 1,000 years, mankind created in perfection, we shall see what the Everlasting Gospel of God, Divinity combined mysteriously with Humanity, what God, Christ, who is without sin can do in sinful human flesh... God recreates His image in us, “I will...” in fulfillment of His promises [Genesis 3:15; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:23-38, 37:23-28; 2 Corinthians 3:3; Hebrews 8:8-12, 10:16], He shall have the final Generation... the Harvest of Life, and the Marriage [Luke 12:36]... and the “...mystery of God should be finished...” [Revelation 10:7], Jesus is the “...author and finisher of our faith...” [Hebrews 12:2], the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last...

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Luke 12:36

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2​

The 7th Day God rested…

The Seventh 1,000 years [The Day of the LORD], all of saved humanity, is in atonement with God in Heaven... in rest...

 

[One Baptism]

In case any Baptist wonders about what was just said in regards the Everlasting Gospel in the 6,000 years from Genesis, etc ending in the 7th, then they ought perhaps consider their historical (in the Scriptural) beliefs a little more, along with others (which I have) of the Reformation:

See also John Gill's [Calvinist; English Baptist] Commentary on 2 Peter 3:8:

"... Thus they say (a),

"in the time to come, which is in the last days, on the sixth day, which is the sixth millennium, when the Messiah comes, for the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years.''

And a little after,

""the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man". This is in the time of the Messiah which is in the sixth day.''

And elsewhere (b),

"the sixth degree is called the sixth day, the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years. And in that day the King Messiah shall come, and it shall be called the feast of gathering, for the holy blessed God will gather in it the captivity of his people.''

So they call the sabbath, or seventh day, the seventh millennium, and interpret (c).

""the song for the sabbath day", Psalm 92:1 title, for the seventh millennium, for one day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years.''

To which agrees the tradition of Elias, which runs thus (d);

"it is the tradition of the house of Elias, that the world shall be six thousand years, two thousand years void (of the law), two thousand years the law, and two thousand years the days of the Messiah;''

for they suppose that the six days of the creation were expressive of the six thousand years in which the world will stand; and that the seventh day prefigures the last millennium, in which will be the day of judgment, and the world to come; for

"the six days of the creation (they say (e)) is a sign or intimation of these things: on the sixth day man was created; and on the seventh his work was finished; so the kings of the nations of the world (continue) five millenniums, answering to the five days, in which were created the fowls, and the creeping things of the waters, and other things; and the enjoyment of their kingdom is a little in the sixth, answerable to the creation of the beasts, and living creatures created at this time in the beginning of it; and the kingdom of the house of David is in the sixth millennium, answerable to the creation of man, who knew his Creator, and ruled over them all; and in the end of that millennium will be the day of judgment, answerable to man, who was judged in the end of it; and the seventh is the sabbath, and it is the beginning of the world to come.''

(z) Bereshit Rabba, sect. 8. fol. 7. 3. Vajikra Rabba, sect. 19. fol. 160. 2. Bemidbar Rabba, sect. 14. fol. 216. 1. Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 20. 1. Zohar in Exod. fol. 60. 1. Tzeror Hammor, fol. 157. 1. & Nishmet Chayim Orat. 1. c. 5. fol. 12. 1.((a) Zohar in Gen. fol. 13. 4. (b) Ib. fol. 16. 1.((c) Bartenora in Misn. Tamid, c. 7. sect. 4. (d) T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 97. 1. & Avoda Zara, fol. 9. 1.((e) Ceseph Misna in Maimon. Hilchot Teshuva, c. 9. sect. 2." - http://biblehub.com/2_peter/3-8.htm​

 

[Darrell C]

Thanks. I was looking for some sort of doctrinal statement but haven't found one yet.

I do not have one, primarily due to the fact that the first one was designed primarily to help those interested in Forum Missions. While many go to forums, many also stay on the same one. Some of the people on this forum (one of the first I ever found) are still arguing the same things they argued five years ago or so. Being one that does not view Scripture as full of "gray areas," it seems that most, if not all issues have a determinate answer in the word of God. And what I have found is that putting our knowledge into use by going out to forums where there are members who are riding roughshod over Christians who are not very knowledgeable...helps us. It is when we go up against those who challenge us and our beliefs that we test our own doctrine, and believe it or not that has helped me a great deal. I owe a great deal of gratitude to atheists, for example, for being able to talk with them. I use to be intimidated and worried that someone was going to say something that might shake my faith.

The opposite is true...my faith has been strengthened by finding out just how unreasonable most of their arguments are, and just how easily a proper context dispels most of their contentions with the Word of God and Christianity.

As I said, I didn't spend much time there, but was usually out on other forums, and imported the discussion there.

But, the Doctrinal standpoints of the forum might be said to be found in the posts themselves. I did not want to impress on anyone that I hold a view or views that one has to conform to, as some forums do (and I don't have a problem with that either). This leaves sit open for anyone to present their views, and what follows, well, that can be read.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Give me a break. You're nigh to insulting my intelligence now with your charade.

Seriously, I have heard of a Scofield Bible, and suppose their is a man behind it, but I have never actually seen anything written by him, or in his study Bible. I think I heard about him/it listening to McGee. And by the way, not in agreement with a number of issues McGee taught, though I think the man had a worthy ministry, and was not a bad preacher, though he could be a little gruff sometimes, lol. Wasn't afraid of pointing out believers needed to grow and get off the "bottle" (baby's bottle).

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Jesuits... [sigh]

Okay, KR thinks I am a Dispensationalist, you think I am a Jesuit...lol.

Yet neither of you bother to address the Scripture or the points given in detail. My words are chopped up and what is thought can be addressed is responded to, which results in me having to reiterate the same things over and over.

Yes.

And you are forced to admit there is more that has to be considered, there is not just one question, which has, if I am not mistaken, been pointed out from the very first response I gave to your teaching.

You are isolating the Scripture to fit your teaching, and not allowing for it's full meaning.

You did not ask if Christ came "again", only if Christ came. Therefore, yes.

You did not ask "Is Christ the only One the proof-texts I have provided refers to."

So does this Scripture...


Hosea 11

King James Version (KJV)

1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.


...apply only to Christ, as you are trying to make it? Thereby continuing a false condescension which is not justified.

Yes or no? That is actually a yes or no question that can be answered singularly.

If you say yes, perhaps you will explain...


5 He shall not return into the land of Egypt, and the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.



...exactly how the Assyrian will be Christ's King?

If you had asked if Christ Jesus came "again" (iow, second time), the answer is, "No."

The question demands that your argument be viewed as limited.

The simple fact is that the question must first have a context before it is answered.

And the problem is that you seek to limit the context to demand the answer you want, rather than the answers that can be given depending on context.

The passage refers to National Israel, as well as Christ. That the quote is used in an analogous manner does not negate it's context in the Old Testament.

And this is precisely the reason I took issue with the first post.

If you had asked if Christ Jesus came "third time" (as Scripture reveals), the answer is, "No."

Not even going to ask...

Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:13-15.

Is Christ Jesus the one who "fulfilled" Hosea 11:1, according to Matthew 2:13-15, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, please answer, Yes or No. Reciprocation would be welcomed.

I agree: would you please address the posts instead of piece-mealing them to your own use? lol

Israel fulfilled the intent of God to redeem His people in it's original usage. That redemption was prophesied centuries before.

That swings us back to the Vine that God planted. Israel pictures the provision of God and the center, if you will, of that provision, which involves both the land as well as the people.

Christ states "I am the True Vine," which represents the provision of God which goes beyond a physical people literally redeemed physically and provided with literal physical sustenance. The "True Bread" is contrasted, by Christ Himself (John 6) with the physical bread of the Wilderness (manna). In that example of the temporal contrasted with the eternal, the True Bread, which is Christ dying to provide the provision of eternal life...does not negate the fact that manna sustained Israel and gave her life in that period.

When we get to "Spiritual Israel," I'm sorry, but we get back to the condition of man prior to Pentecost and the New Covenant. To make an equation between those of faith then, and those of faith now, who receive the True Bread (contrasted with those who did not receive Him, John 1), is as serious a mistake as the mistake of calling those who were of spiritual Israel the Church.

Now...where were we.

"In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips [is] wise." - Proverbs 10:19​

Or as that redneck band use to put it "...and be a simple...kind of man..."



I guess this is a jab at the length of my posts, yet I see you see no problem with creating long posts that speak at people. Me, I prefer to speak with people, and have found that if someone is serious about their doctrinal view, they will go to the effort to defend as well as expound those views.

Jesuit counter-reformation theology (not derived from Scripture) is where 'futurism' (and that which is like) originated, documented and traced through its history - http://www.biblelight.net/antichrist.htm

As far as what is derived from Scripture or not, well, I will let the public record stand, and allow the read, if there be any, to judge for themselves.

I do not get tied down with trying to defend Theology systems or groups, but strictly look to the Word of God to defend my own views. How they align with other groups does not align me with them.

A futuristic view predates the popular a-millennial views taught by both Catholic and Reformed alike.

How do I know this? Glad you asked: because we see it is a First Century teaching that has the Word of God to substantiate the claim. You, or anyone, that would like to test that claim are very welcome to. This is what I do.

And I like, very much, what I do.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
...So show me the one born...regenerate? Show me born again believers in the Old Testament Economies...

From the very days of Adam and Genesis 3:15 "the seed":

"And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD." - Genesis 4:26​

This actually shows the separation of men from God. Not regeneration.

Follow that through the whole Scripture.

Continued:

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. - Deuteronomy 10:16

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. - Deuteronomy 30:6

Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings. - Jeremiah 4:4​

All men benefit from the ministry of the Holy Spirit Who ministers to man's heart. I have never denied this. However, we do not equate that ministry with salvation in Christ, nor do we impose bestowal of the promises before they are given.

Furthermore:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. - Ezekiel 36:26

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. - Ezekiel 36:27​

These are promises associated with the New Covenant, my friend, fulfilled at Pentecost.

Show me where, after this promise is given, that Israel was returned to her land, given a new spirit, a new heart, and indwelt of God that they might walk in His statutes and keep His judgments.

You are undergirding the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvations teachings) in your attempt to deny a very simple truth concerning Eternal Redemption.

If we follow your view the only conclusion we can make is that God bestowed the promises upon a people who did exactly the opposite of what God said He would do.

Understand?

If Israel received these promises then God failed, because we do not see Eternal Redemption bestowed upon Israel, and you cannot make even of Christ's closest disciples recipients of Eternal Redemption, You cannot even find one who placed faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

All I ask is that you consider what your doctrine is actually teaching, and how it minimizes the Work and result of Christ.

King Saul Himself was 'born again', before he later apostatized and grieved away the Holy Spirit of God:

Great, Saul received eternal remission of sins and eternal life but apostatized.

Amazing.

You simply misunderstand the ministries of the Holy Spirit being different according to the economy of each Age.

When David was anointed the Spirit of God came upon him from that day forward, yet David pleads the impossible:


Psalm 51:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.


It's amazing that a Prophet of God could so misunderstand regeneration.

Now you tell me, as a born again believer, which of these will you plead before God?

Do you think that your sins still need removing, when God has declared in Promise to forgive your sins completely and eternally?

Are you going to ask God...to give you a new heart...again?

Are you going to ask God to give you a new spirit...again?

Are you going to ask God not to cast you away from Himself?

Do you, OB...ask God not to remove HIs Holy Spirit from you?


If you do, my friend, then you do not trust in His Promise. Either that or you do not consider yourself to be a born again believer yet.

Think about it.

And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. - 1 Samuel 10:6

And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, [that] thou do as occasion serve thee; for God [is] with thee. - 1 Samuel 10:7

And it was [so], that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. - 1 Samuel 10:9​

Old Testament ministry of the Holy Spirit which is seen throughout the Old Testament, but cannot be made to be that which was prophesied to come.

The Scripture that you have avoided, already posted in this thread...will help you understand the difference.

Here is one to consider:


John 7:37-39

King James Version (KJV)

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Now, it is not me you take issue with, but Christ and the Word of God. If you equate the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, under the prior Covenants (all of them), with the Ministry Christ foretold which would not take place until after He ascended...then you willfully ignore Christ's teachings.

I have given you numerous posts in which to challenge your doctrine with, yet you evade all that would help you understand this better.

So here's a yes or no question, seeing you like them so much, lol: if Christ Himself taught that these living waters were not available to them at this time, and could not be until He was glorified...do you still think you can impose this into the Old Testament?

For Saul's continued rebellion:

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. - 1 Samuel 16:14

"... Saul, ... answered, I am sore distressed... and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams..." - 1 Samuel 28:15​

Okay, so you believe salvation can be lost. Great, but that's another topic for another discussion. In light of how you respond to posts, I have little hope of having profitable discussion about that either.

As it is written then, brother, in charity:

And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? - Mark 12:24​

Funny, but it seems to me I have addressed every word you have said, addressed every point you have made, and done so with Scripture. You have neglected most of my points and ignored the Scripture provided...

...and you take a position that I am ignorant.

But that's okay, my friend, I am used to it. Should you decide to actually address these issues let me know, and you can do that by addressing everything I have said point by point. Until then, not sure I will continue in discussion with you, and will let you get back to talking at people.

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by Darrell C
By the way, who exactly is this Scofield you speak of?.....

Give me a break. You're nigh to insulting my intelligence now with your charade.

Scofield, Scofield: Never heard of him. Darby, Darby: Why do you keep bringing up that name. Just what did he do?

 

[One Baptism]

Okay... you think I am a Jesuit...lol. ...

Brother, that is not a denial, even though you did not correctly read what was stated, however, I do notice what you did not say.

...It's amazing that a Prophet of God could so misunderstand regeneration.

Wow, brother, are you ever in serious danger. Repent. David said what he said, by Inspiration of the Holy Spirit [2 Peter 1:21; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:16], and you just said it was "misunderstand[ing]".

...and you take a position that I am ignorant....

No brother, I do not. I take the theology you hold to as extremely dangerous to one's salvation.

... Until then, not sure I will continue in discussion with you...

As you will brother, even as you will ... even as a staff in the old man's hand.

 

[Darrell C]

Scofield, Scofield: Never heard of him. Darby, Darby: Why do you keep bringing up that name. Just what did he do?

Ah, finally someone who is well acquainted with these fellows.

Hold on gang, OR has arrived to educate us!




God bless.