And Jesus did NOT correct the Apostles understanding of national isreal having a kingdom under messah, he corrected their timing aspect when that would be happening!
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The Israel of God
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And Jesus did NOT correct the Apostles understanding of national isreal having a kingdom under messah, he corrected their timing aspect when that would be happening!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is false. God through the Apostle Paul gave us the parable of the olive tree in Romans 11 and then again the addition of Gentiles to True or Spiritual Israel in Ephesians 2!
Being fulfilled now over those who believe and continued in the New Heavens and New Earth at the return of Jesus Christ.
savedbymercy
New Member
Why was national israel cut off ?
Paul informs us why here under inspiration why the nation of israel, that is Abraham's physical descendants of the flesh israel, why they were cut off from amongst God's People here Rom 11:19-21
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
What can be more plainer than this, they were cut off Because of Unbelief !
Now what did that mean according to Jesus ? Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Thats right, national israel was not part of the Elect Israel which was God's Sheep ! Remember when David wrote Ps 100
Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands.
2 Serve the Lord with gladness: come before his presence with singing.
3 Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
5 For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
Guess what ? He was not speaking of national israel according to the flesh, simply because that people israel are not the Children of God Rom 9:8, that just did not become truth when Paul wrote it in the New Testament, it was always the Truth ! God's People and Sheep Israel was always just a small remnant located in that nation !
But they believed not because they were not of God's Sheep, Covenant Israel, wherein Christ is the root and fatness thereof Rom 11:17
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
See the True Israel was Chosen in Christ before the foundation, and Christ is their root and fatness, obviously indicating that was not the case for national israel, Abraham's Israel according to physical descent, since by and large they were cut off ! Also see Jn 15:6
6 If a man abide not in me [The Root of Israel], he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Remember Matt 21:19
And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
Thats national israel being cut off because of unbelief, which means they were not of His Sheep Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.484
Paul informs us why here under inspiration why the nation of israel, that is Abraham's physical descendants of the flesh israel, why they were cut off from amongst God's People here Rom 11:19-21
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
What can be more plainer than this, they were cut off Because of Unbelief !
Now what did that mean according to Jesus ? Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Thats right, national israel was not part of the Elect Israel which was God's Sheep ! Remember when David wrote Ps 100
Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands.
2 Serve the Lord with gladness: come before his presence with singing.
3 Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
5 For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
Guess what ? He was not speaking of national israel according to the flesh, simply because that people israel are not the Children of God Rom 9:8, that just did not become truth when Paul wrote it in the New Testament, it was always the Truth ! God's People and Sheep Israel was always just a small remnant located in that nation !
But they believed not because they were not of God's Sheep, Covenant Israel, wherein Christ is the root and fatness thereof Rom 11:17
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
See the True Israel was Chosen in Christ before the foundation, and Christ is their root and fatness, obviously indicating that was not the case for national israel, Abraham's Israel according to physical descent, since by and large they were cut off ! Also see Jn 15:6
6 If a man abide not in me [The Root of Israel], he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Remember Matt 21:19
And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
Thats national israel being cut off because of unbelief, which means they were not of His Sheep Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.484
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is utter nonsense. There is one Bride of Jesus Christ, the total number of the redeemed throughout time!
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
If people would only believe this passage it would destroy the false doctrine that there are two peoples of God: The Church, a heavenly people ,and the Jews or Israel, an earthly people. But sadly many chose to ignore what the Apostle Paul tells us!
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Totally agree. There is only one God of the Bible. God offers us salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The Scripture of the OT and NT are in perfect harmony. Abraham and Paul are on the exact same page. There is no salvation except in Jesus Christ.
You mean you don't believe that we the church are just an after-thought, something that God thought up after the Jews rejected Jesus? That His real purpose is to get us out of here so He can then deal with the real object of history, physical Israel? So the temple can be rebuilt and animals can start being slaughtered again? How could you be so wrong?
Except that we who are Dispy here agree that ONLY Gentiles and Jews who received Yeshua as tgheir Messiah are saved, but the truth is that the lord has plans for both national isreal and the Cgurch still going on, as He has been mainly in the Church Age calling out gentiles unto Himself, but in the end of Days will be focusing back upon Isreal getting ready to meet their King...
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Could you quote the Scripture where he corrected the timing of a kingdom for national Israel?
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is the invention of John Nelson Darby, to support his pre-trib error, and is nonsense.
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No, that was him rediscovering what the scriptures actually taught, as much of the early Church thought in pre mil way, with a kingdom for national isreal yet still to come, but that view was supplanted when Augustine and origin came into the church teaching us to see prophecy as allegory and only smbolic in nature!
What about the 12 tribes in Re 7.
Are they all Jews only?
If they are only the Jews, excluding any gentile believers, then the New City of Jerusalem coming down from Heaven in Re 21:10-22:5 consists of only Jews?
The New Jerusalem has the following facts:
12 tribes, 12 apostles, 12 gates, 12 pearls, 12 angels, 12 gems, 12 cornerstones, 12 thousand stadions, 12 months, 12 fruits, 12 X 12 cubit walls, name of Jerusalem which is the capital of Israel. They all represent Israel. Therefore the City of New Jerusalem is only for Jews?
144K are all Jews ?
Are they all Jews only?
If they are only the Jews, excluding any gentile believers, then the New City of Jerusalem coming down from Heaven in Re 21:10-22:5 consists of only Jews?
The New Jerusalem has the following facts:
12 tribes, 12 apostles, 12 gates, 12 pearls, 12 angels, 12 gems, 12 cornerstones, 12 thousand stadions, 12 months, 12 fruits, 12 X 12 cubit walls, name of Jerusalem which is the capital of Israel. They all represent Israel. Therefore the City of New Jerusalem is only for Jews?
144K are all Jews ?
Do not concern yourself with the #12.
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
and,
"The secret things belong unto the Lord."
#12 is one of those secret things.
As the Calvinist mantra goes: "It is a mystery." Indeed, "It is a mystery."
#12 is a mystery. You will have to wait till you get to heaven until you find out the true meaning of this number though it be mentioned numerous times throughout this book. A study of numerology will prove to be nothing but vanity.
It is secret.
The secret things belong unto the Lord.
What about this?
REV 21
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
In other words, The Bride of the Lamb comprises 12 tribes of Israel,doesn't she?
In other words, Bride of the Lamb is the Israel of God, isn't it?
You remember I am a PB, Plymouth Brethren.
They often resort to the Mystery whenever they encounter an Impasse which they cannot answer with their tool of Dispensationalism.
I don't place the doctrine of the assemblies above the Bible.
You must distinguish between the Israel of Romans 11 and Israel of God in Gal 6:16.
Rm 11 talks about the nation of Israel
Gal 6:16 talks about the Born Again Believers in Jesus Christ which comprises both Gentile Born-Again Believers and Messianic Jews, without discrimination.
All bornagain believers are the Israel of God.
Re 7 talk about 12 tribes of Israel which is the same as the 12 tribes in Re 21:12.
Eliyahu
IOW, no.
Even John the Baptist did not claim to be part of the bride of Christ but only a friend of the groom.
The bride is composed of the NT church. The twelve are the twelve apostles; the twelfth was appointed in Acts chapter one. The church never replaced Israel. I believe replacement theology is a heresy.
And I don't believe in numerology, thus my previous answer.
I agree that Replacement Theory is a Heresy.
Nevertheless I can still believe that John the Baptist was a part of Bride even though he stated himself as a friend.
Because the reason why he said so was that he was describing the whole situation as a third party.
It didn't mean that OT saints are not the Bride.
OT believers are not part of 12 tribes of Israel in Re 21:12?
OT believers had the Spirit of Christ ( 1 Pet 1:11)
Moses believed in Christ ( Heb 11:26, JOhn 5:46)
Then only NT believers are the part of 12 tribes?
Then, you must believe 12 tribes in Re 7 include Gentile Believers, NT assembly, which
is rejectewd by Dispensationalism.
Bride of Lamb = Wife of Lamb (Re 21:9)
Then Bride of Lamb=Holy City Jerusalem ( Re 21:10)
Holy City Jerusalem= 12 tribes of Israel ( Re 21:12)
Do you believe 12 tribes are the NT church ?
Then 12 tribes in Re 7 are the NT church, right ?
Are they not Israel of God ( Gal 6:16) ?
Please give up the Dispensationalism originally from Futurism developped by Jesuit Lacunza.
Eliyahu
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No, don't use <<other words>>. The "GATES" have the "twelve names" on them. It does not mean <<the Bride comprises (the) 12 tribes>>!
The <<12 tribes are>> not <<Israel of God ( Gal 6:16)>>;
<<the NT church>> is <<Israel of God ( Gal 6:16)>>
Even Isaiah, Elijah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Moses, wouldn't be the members of 12 tribes of Israel( Re 21:12)?
Realize your theology has a problem, please.
Eliyahu.
You are saying Israel is not Israel of God though they had the Spirit of Christ in them (1 Peter 1:11) , only gentile and jewish believers of NT are Israel, right?
Then do you believe 12 tribes of Re 7, 144, 000 are NT believers?
Eliyahu
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