The Israel of God

[Protestant]

I fail to see the relevance.

Again, I see the see the relevance.

Perhaps my head is a little foggy today, lol, but once again, I fail to see the relevance.

Of course you fail to see the relevance.

Your myopic dispensational glasses have distorted your view. :>)

Hebrews is the classic teaching on the relationship of OT to NEW.

In it you will find clear explanations as to type vs. antitype; shadow vs. fulfillment.

I am not a Dispensationalist, though I might be found to agree with certain doctrines found in these (plural) camps.

MIGHT be found? LOL

Below is a checklist for your perusal. Please indicate which Dispensational doctrines you do NOT hold:

1. The Secret Rapture.....whereby millions of persons worldwide will suddenly vanish causing the deaths of innumerable innocents due to unmanned planes, trains and automobiles crashing (not to mention those undergoing surgery when vast numbers of surgeons, anesthesiologists, and surgical nurses disappear.)

2. Future One World Leader who will unite all warring factions, despite the intensity and longevity of their mutual hatred and distrust.

3. Future One World Religion....whereby all fanatical and not-so-fanatical religionists lay aside their doctrinal differences and worship the same god/gods.

4. Future rebuilt Jewish Temple in which animal sacrifices will be reinstituted.

5. 144,000 literal Jewish Virgins will evangelize the world.

6. Daniel 9:27 refers to Antichrist, not Jesus Christ.

7. The Future One World Leader breaks his covenant with Israel demanding he be worshipped as God.

8. A Great Tribulation lasting from 3 1/2 to 7 years consisting of the dissolution of the solar system as we know it, our waters turning to literal blood, literal locust demons torturing men, women and children, Antichrist's forces seeking to kill all converts to Christianity, etc.

9. Despite these overwhelming trials and tribulations, men will be living as in the days of Noah, doing business as usual and even planning marriages.

I'm sure that many on this board eagerly await your sober, alert, concise, straight-talking response as do I! :>)

 

[One Baptism]

Equating the "church" in the Wilderness...

Brother Darrell C, before, getting to Revelation 12 and other, I must ask you, if you agree, based upon the Scriptures cited, Hosea 11:1, Matthew 2:13-15 and etc* (see below), that Jesus Christ, Himself, is Israel, as given here:

According to Scripture, then as we have already noted, that Jesus Christ Himself is the True Israel:

Hosea 11:1 - When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

This passage is directly cited by the Gospel of Matthew and clearly stated that it was "fulfilled" in Christ Jesus:

Matthew 2:13 - And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Matthew 2:14 - When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

Matthew 2:15 - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The name "Israel" is a Spiritual name, not a Physical one. Consider the origin of it to begin with:

Genesis 32:28 - And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

This is given twice, for a witness:

Genesis 35:10 - And God said unto him, Thy name [is] Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Yet, notice, that since Christ Jesus is "Israel", who then are His "children" (Exodus 31:13; see also Isaiah 56:1-8 (carefully) along with John 10:16, etc)? Scripture declares it:

Hebrews 2:10 - For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 2:11 - For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Notice again from the New Testament in the same place, and from where it draws from in the Old Testament:

Hebrews 2:13 - And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

This is directly citing Isaiah 8, please notice carefully:

Isaiah 8:10 - Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God [is] with us.

Isaiah 8:11 - For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,

Isaiah 8:12 - Say ye not, A confederacy, to all [them to] whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

Isaiah 8:13 - Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and [let] him [be] your fear, and [let] him [be] your dread.

Isaiah 8:14 - And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 8:15 - And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

Isaiah 8:16 - Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Isaiah 8:17 - And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

Isaiah 8:18 - Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me [are] for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Notice, that the entire context is speaking about Jesus Christ, the "God with us", and his ["my"] "disciples", even the "children whom the LORD [Father] hath given me [Jesus]", and that the "testimony" and the "Law" of God, the Ten Commandments, were to be "sealed" [by the Holy Spirit] "among" them.

See John 17, but also:

John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

and, notice the fulfillment of the "my disciples" of Isaiah 8:

Matthew 26:18 - And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

Mark 14:14 - And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luke 22:11 - And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

John 8:31 - Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

John 13:35 - By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 15:8 - Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 13:33 - Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

All of the Promises of God, are only "Yea" and "Amen" in Christ Jesus, and in no other:

2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

The True Olive Tree of Romans 11, is Christ Jesus Himself, and this may be seen from many further texts.

We can then see what a True Israelite is when we begin to look a little further.

The physical Jew, has no hope, except in coming to, accepting and believing on Christ Jesus, for it is written of them:

Matthew 21:43 - Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 23:38 - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Luke 13:35 - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 3:10 - And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Luke 3:9 - And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mark 11:14 - And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard [it].

Mark 11:20 - And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

Romans 9:6 - Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The "Israel of God", is not the "Israel after the flesh":

1 Corinthians 10:18 - Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

Galatians 6:16 - And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

For one to be an "Israelite indeed", they must accept Jesus Christ:

John 1:47 - Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

John 1:48 - Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

John 1:49 - Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Is there anything specific therein, that you Darrell C disagree with, and please be specific, that our time may be fruitful. If you do not disagree with anything therein, I may move from this onto the next points raised (after a bit more time).

 

[Darrell C]

Of course you fail to see the relevance.

Your myopic dispensational glasses have distorted your view. :>)

You will never be successful in debate by trying to make your antagonist fit the mold you have presupposed for them to bolster your own doctrine.

As I said, I am not a Dispensationalist, I am a Christian who happens to be a Bible-Student. I do not fall into any category other than one who embraces Biblical Doctrine.

Hebrews is the classic teaching on the relationship of OT to NEW.

More importantly, it is the Biblical Teaching of the relationship of the believer to God to and through the New Covenant.

Not just a comparison of Old and New, and certainly not centered on the relationship of the Old Testament to the New. While the New Testament existed in Epistle form, it was not viewed as we view it since it has been compiled collectively.

In it you will find clear explanations as to type vs. antitype; shadow vs. fulfillment.

This I agree with, and will add the purpose is to educate the hearer/reader to the absolute necessity of moving from that which was only meant to be foundational to that which has been made complete, remission of sins being a primary focus.

MIGHT be found? LOL

Okay, maybe it might not be found. At least not until you actually point out something I have said instead of fishing with questions and charging without justification.

I also believe in the Trinity, so why aren't you calling me a Catholic?

I also believe there is a State of Utah, so why aren't you calling me a Mormon?

Below is a checklist for your perusal. Please indicate which Dispensational doctrines you do NOT hold:

1. The Secret Rapture.....whereby millions of persons worldwide will suddenly vanish causing the deaths of innumerable innocents due to unmanned planes, trains and automobiles crashing (not to mention those undergoing surgery when vast numbers of surgeons, anesthesiologists, and surgical nurses disappear.)

Well, if you're going to make this so easy...

I don't embrace a "secret rapture," and know of no credible Bible Teacher that teaches a Secret Rapture. This is a pseudo argument that will cut both ways for those who reject a Pre-tribulation Rapture, first by showing they cannot present doctrine that substantiates their doctrinal position but are forced to engage in hostile and slanderous behavior, and secondly shows the lack of understanding of the Bible, in that they ignore the strong delusion God will send upon the unbelieving population of the Tribulation.

Not secret, simply not discernible to unbelievers.

As to the rest of it, I have no real opinion. I am not privy to how events will unfold when the Lord catches up His Church prior to the Tribulation. I don't know how long before the Tribulation this will occur, though I don't think there will be much space between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation.

But that's not a Dispensational Teaching, it is a Biblical Teaching. If you would like to discuss it let me know.

2. Future One World Leader who will unite all warring factions, despite the intensity and longevity of their mutual hatred and distrust.

That's not a Dispensational Teaching, it is a Biblical Teaching. If you would like to discuss it let me know.

To start the discussion I would point out that the guy seen here...


Revelation 20:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


...is not only spoken of in Revelation, but in the Gospels and Old Testament Prophecy.

3. Future One World Religion....whereby all fanatical and not-so-fanatical religionists lay aside their doctrinal differences and worship the same god/gods.

That's not a Dispensational Teaching, it is a Biblical Teaching. If you would like to discuss it let me know.

To start the discussion I will just say that the guy spoken of here...

Revelation 20:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Heads up that organization.

And the way that people are increasingly self imposing ignorance of Scripture it is no wonder that the Oprahites will one day have a majority population.

4. Future rebuilt Jewish Temple in which animal sacrifices will be reinstituted.

That's not a Dispensational Teaching, it is a Biblical Teaching. If you would like to discuss it let me know.

And the two Temples I would point out would be the Temple mentioned here...


Revelation 11

King James Version (KJV)

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


...clearly depicted within the framework of the Tribulation, and the one seen here...


Daniel 12:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


...are the same Temple found in the Tribulation and was also spoken of by Christ...


Matthew 24:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)


...and should not be confused with the Temple spoken of by the Prophet Ezekiel, and because there is so much spoken of that Temple, for obvious reasons of space, I will simply direct you to study, beginning with Ezekiel 39, the Temple prophesied which has never of course come to be yet.

And unless you want to say some Scripture has God frivolously speaking, then it just goes without saying that when these prophesies are fulfilled, we will see the same consistency of fulfillment we always see in regards to Prophecy.

As far as animal sacrifice in the Kingdom, I see it as no different than partaking of communion for the Church. It will be memorial, not salvific. Offerings were still offered up by the Early Church by those whose heritage was the Law. Paul partook of these services and the only thing that stopped him was being arrested.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

5. 144,000 literal Jewish Virgins will evangelize the world.

That's not a Dispensational Teaching, it is a Biblical Teaching, though like "secret rapture," the evangelical efforts or lack thereof is not something I am dogmatic about, though think it is implied, as it is for everyone who is saved. If you would like to discuss it let me know.

That there will be 144,000 literal Jewish virgins is contained in the Word of God, and only a denial, or spiritualization of the text results in a conclusion that Scripture does not mean what it says.

6. Daniel 9:27 refers to Antichrist, not Jesus Christ.

That's not a Dispensational Teaching, it is a Biblical Teaching. If you would like to discuss it let me know.

Daniel 9:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

As I said, let me know if you want an in-depth discussion, but for the time being, I will just ask one question:

What covenant did Christ "confirm" for a seven year period?

You cannot ascribe this to either the Covenant of Law (which what is in view in this text, and would be the only one that made sense to the reader of that day and following, until the New Covenant was established) or the New Covenant.

While some spiritualize the text and try to make the Work of Christ fit what is described here, the truth is that it corresponds precisely to the rest of prophecy and is clearly a reference to the Antichrist.

But answer this one question, and we can start there.

7. The Future One World Leader breaks his covenant with Israel demanding he be worshipped as God.

That's not a Dispensational Teaching, it is a Biblical Teaching. If you would like to discuss it let me know.

Daniel 9:27

King James Version (KJV)


27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It is just reasonable conclusion that this seven year period is in fact that last Week of Judgment prescribed for Israel.

You can try to make this Christ establishing a Covenant, but it will fit neither the text nor harmonize with the rest of Prophecy.

8. A Great Tribulation lasting from 3 1/2 to 7 years consisting of the dissolution of the solar system as we know it, our waters turning to literal blood, literal locust demons torturing men, women and children, Antichrist's forces seeking to kill all converts to Christianity, etc.

That's not even Dispensational Teaching.

In fact, I know of no-one that teaches the dissolving of the solar system in the Tribulation.

As to the rest, well...

...that's not a Dispensational Teaching, it is a Biblical Teaching. If you would like to discuss it let me know.

Starting to see a familiar theme here, my friend?

9. Despite these overwhelming trials and tribulations, men will be living as in the days of Noah, doing business as usual and even planning marriages.

If Christ said it, shouldn't you embrace it as truth?


Luke 17:24-30

King James Version (KJV)

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

I'm sure that many on this board eagerly await your sober, alert, concise, straight-talking response as do I! :>)

I seriously doubt that, because my posts are usually long and that restricts discussion between myself and my antagonists, which means you are likely the only one who will read this.

Again, while my views may share in common that which might be called Dispensational Theology, the truth is that I fit into no category, lol. I am prone to be found in disagreement about something with everyone.

Eschatology isn't something most will seriously study, and unfortunately, for some, their study will focus on systematic theologies which, I think, can often hinder one in an objective study of Scripture as a whole.

But I am serious in saying if you want to talk about any of these items mentioned above, I am confident that I can at the least present my views which should at least be enough to show that there is a Biblical Basis for those views. It is then your burden to correct my error, which is not only fine with me, but desired, because as we debate our antagonists our own views are challenged which can only help us, in my opinion.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

darrell



I suppose that means no, ok no problem, but be prepared to reap what you sow !

So address the response. So far you are talking at me, my friend, not with me.

You charge misunderstanding and I have now three times asked you to point out what I said that implies misunderstanding.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Brother Darrell C, before, getting to Revelation 12 and other, I must ask you, if you agree, based upon the Scriptures cited, Hosea 11:1, Matthew 2:13-15 and etc* (see below), that Jesus Christ, Himself, is Israel, as given here:

Is there anything specific therein, that you Darrell C disagree with, and please be specific, that our time may be fruitful. If you do not disagree with anything therein, I may move from this onto the next points raised (after a bit more time).

Probably easiest for us to address this first issue by considering what the Church, the Body of Christ is, and whether or not that Body was found among the Old Testament Saints.

As mentioned in the first response we do not generalize "Israel" and fail to distinguish between the Nation and the People of God in the spiritual sense. We do not negate that the physical people were the created people of God, however, neither do we attribute bestowal of what was only promise for them. They were promised new birth, yet that did not take place until Pentecost. They were promised the Eternal indwelling of God, but that did not take place until Pentecost. They were promised complete remission of sins, but...

...well, you get the picture.

Again...there was no Church in the Old Testament, though the unbelieving in the Wilderness were called the church.

Think about that.

They were unbelievers.

The closest we come to a believer is Moses, and keep in mind Moses did not enter into the "rest" they were promised (which they received nationally, though those coming out of Egypt failed to obtain rest). Then, keep in mind that this rest is not to be equated to Rest which is found in Christ only. The warning and exhortation of the Writer of Hebrews is to strive to enter into that rest (and he speaks on a national basis, even as his example is national) which he makes clear cannot be done if one is in unbelief, which is the very reason they did not enter then, and the very reason they would not enter at the time of the writing, which remains true until this day.

So perhaps, in looking at my statement which comes into conflict with yours, what is in order is a look at what it means to have received the promises of God which is in fact the Church being established through the establishing of the New Covenant.

And I am out of time so look forward to your response, and may be able to get back in the morning.

God bless.

 

[Protestant]

We can say truly that Abraham, for example, was not a Christian, but that does not mean he was not, in the eternal perspective, any less "saved" than we. He was still in need of having his sins forgiven through Christ, but specific revelation given us through the Spirit in this Age was not available to him.

Special revelation not available to Abraham…..really, Darrell?

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The Lord both spoke to him directly and appeared to him several times.

Abraham was not a shadow; Faith was not a shadow

Abraham is a wonderful, though not necessarily obvious, typical example of how salvation works.

The explanation is developed fully in the New Testament.

Abram was a pagan idolater living in Ur.

He did not seek the Lord. The Lord sought him.

Neither do we, in our unregenerate state, seek the Lord.

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The Lord seeks us.

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

It wasn’t as if there was something ‘good’ about Abram or his idolatry which caused the Lord to choose him for salvation.

Neither is there anything ‘good’ or ‘admirable’ in us that would cause the Lord to choose us for salvation.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The Lord’s choice of which sinners to save is entirely due to His sovereign, most wise and most holy discretion, independent of anything ‘worthy’ in the sinner.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Abram was commanded to leave his old life behind.

Those whom the Lord elects unto salvation leave their old life behind.

old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The Lord’s calling of Abram was efficacious.

The Lord’s calling of all the Elect is always efficacious.

Darrell, by studying the calling of Abram we have confirmation that the following doctrines are consistent with NT revelation:

1. All men are unbelieving sinners estranged from and at enmity with God.

2. A supernatural revelation of God is necessary to remove man’s unbelief.

3. The faith needed to leave behind a sinful lifestyle to order to follow the Lord in holiness and truth is a supernatural work of grace which can only be attributed to the His omnipotent power.

And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

4. All those drawn to the Lord by the Father will be saved.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Yes, the doctrines of grace are taught in the OT, though, as it were, in shadow form.

 

[Protestant]

I am not privy to how events will unfold when the Lord catches up His Church prior to the Tribulation. I don't know how long before the Tribulation this will occur, though I don't think there will be much space between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation.

Fair enough. You DO, however, hold to the theory that all Christians worldwide will escape the ‘Great Tribulation.’

Several pertinent and logical questions arise as to the validity of such a theory.

1. Unless the history of the Church has no relevance to a serious Christian thinker such as yourself, how is it possible, in good conscience, to turn a blind eye to the ‘Great Tribulation’ which millions of godly Christians have endured nigh unto 2,000 years?

2. What is it about the present or future generation of Christians that warrants them to escape tribulation? Do you not discern the apostate condition of contemporary Christianity in general? ‘Carnal’ Christianity is the norm, not the exception.

3. Why would Jesus Christ pray: I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil….when the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine teaches the exact opposite?

4. In Revelation 7 we are given a ‘behind the scenes’ view of the saints in Heaven. Not one escaped tribulation. There are no raptured saints who escaped tribulation.

And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I eagerly await your comments. :>)
Blessings in Christ Jesus, my friend.

 

[savedbymercy]

Spiritual Jews are True Jews indeed !2

We who belong to Christ are not natural jews by blood, but Spiritual Jews, who receive not a physical circumcision by man, but the Circumcision of Christ, whose the Head of His Body the Church Col 2:11

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

We who are Spiritual Jews with Spiritual Circumcision are separated from the world and is false religions, for it is written 2 Cor 6:16-18

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

John Gill writes of Vs 17:

and be ye separate, saith the Lord; this phrase is not to be met with expressly in our version of the above text in Isaiah, but is signified by several expressions in it; the words rendered "depart ye, depart ye", are by the Targum, or Chaldee paraphrase on the place, expressed by , "be ye separate, be ye separate", which are the very words of the apostle here; and the phrase, "touch no unclean thing", is explained by R. Aben Ezra, "that they might be separate from the nations of the world" and another word, "be ye clean", signifies such a purgation as is made by separation, by removing the clean from the unclean, by separating the wheat from the chaff. The people of God are a separate people in election, redemption, and the effectual calling, and ought to be so in their conduct and conversation; they ought to separate themselves from all superstition and will worship in religious matters, and from the evil customs and manners of the world, though they are sure to become a prey, and to expose themselves to the contempt and rage of it:

But yet Paul under the guidance of the Spirit applies this to the Church, the Body of Christ, who is Spiritual Israel, the Israel of God even !

The word separate is the greek word aphorizo and means:

I rail off, separate, place apart., aphorízō (from 575 /apó, "separated from" and 3724 /horízō, "make boundaries") – properly, separate from a boundary, i.e. a previous condition/situation (note the prefix, apo).

to mark off by boundaries from, i.e. set apart

to appoint, set apart, one for some purpose

Again this applies to the Church of God under the Headship of Christ, also known as the Holy Temple of God 1 Cor 3:16,17

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


These verses refers to the Church, the Body of Christ, not israel according to the flesh. So the Church, the Body of Christ are the Spiritual Jews separated Jews for God's Purpose in Christ !

 

[savedbymercy]

So address the response. So far you are talking at me, my friend, not with me.

You charge misunderstanding and I have now three times asked you to point out what I said that implies misunderstanding.


God bless.

And I have asked you a few times to do something, and you refuse, so you reap what you sow friend !

 

[kyredneck]

According to Scripture, then as we have already noted, that Jesus Christ Himself is the True Israel:

Hosea 11:1 - When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

This passage is directly cited by the Gospel of Matthew and clearly stated that it was "fulfilled" in Christ Jesus:

Matthew 2:13 - And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Matthew 2:14 - When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

Matthew 2:15 - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The name "Israel" is a Spiritual name, not a Physical one. Consider the origin of it to begin with:

Genesis 32:28 - And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

This is given twice, for a witness:

Genesis 35:10 - And God said unto him, Thy name [is] Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Yet, notice, that since Christ Jesus is "Israel", who then are His "children" (Exodus 31:13; see also Isaiah 56:1-8 (carefully) along with John 10:16, etc)? Scripture declares it:

Hebrews 2:10 - For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 2:11 - For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Notice again from the New Testament in the same place, and from where it draws from in the Old Testament:

Hebrews 2:13 - And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

This is directly citing Isaiah 8, please notice carefully:

Isaiah 8:10 - Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God [is] with us.

Isaiah 8:11 - For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,

Isaiah 8:12 - Say ye not, A confederacy, to all [them to] whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

Isaiah 8:13 - Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and [let] him [be] your fear, and [let] him [be] your dread.

Isaiah 8:14 - And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 8:15 - And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

Isaiah 8:16 - Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Isaiah 8:17 - And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

Isaiah 8:18 - Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me [are] for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Notice, that the entire context is speaking about Jesus Christ, the "God with us", and his ["my"] "disciples", even the "children whom the LORD [Father] hath given me [Jesus]", and that the "testimony" and the "Law" of God, the Ten Commandments, were to be "sealed" [by the Holy Spirit] "among" them.

See John 17, but also:

John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

and, notice the fulfillment of the "my disciples" of Isaiah 8:

Matthew 26:18 - And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

Mark 14:14 - And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luke 22:11 - And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

John 8:31 - Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

John 13:35 - By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 15:8 - Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 13:33 - Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

All of the Promises of God, are only "Yea" and "Amen" in Christ Jesus, and in no other:

2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

The True Olive Tree of Romans 11, is Christ Jesus Himself, and this may be seen from many further texts.

We can then see what a True Israelite is when we begin to look a little further.

The physical Jew, has no hope, except in coming to, accepting and believing on Christ Jesus, for it is written of them:

Matthew 21:43 - Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 23:38 - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Luke 13:35 - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 3:10 - And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Luke 3:9 - And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mark 11:14 - And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard [it].

Mark 11:20 - And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

Romans 9:6 - Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The "Israel of God", is not the "Israel after the flesh":

1 Corinthians 10:18 - Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

Galatians 6:16 - And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

For one to be an "Israelite indeed", they must accept Jesus Christ:

John 1:47 - Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

John 1:48 - Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

John 1:49 - Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

:thumbsup: Outstanding post!

 

[kyredneck]

Here are a couple of good articles to read from the journals of SBTS and SEBTS by esteemed scholars arguing for Gentile inclusion in the phrase "Israel of God".

http://www.sbts.edu/resources/files/2010/10/sbjt-v14-n3_cowan.pdf

www.biblicalfoundations.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/23-Israel-in-Galatians-6.pdf

"Gentile inclusion"? That's quite the understatement. The argument would more properly be for "Jewish inclusion":

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54:1

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

There always WERE more 'regenerate' outside of the Old Covenant than there were within it.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
We can say truly that Abraham, for example, was not a Christian, but that does not mean he was not, in the eternal perspective, any less "saved" than we. He was still in need of having his sins forgiven through Christ, but specific revelation given us through the Spirit in this Age was not available to him.

Special revelation not available to Abraham…..really, Darrell?

Not special revelation, though Abraham certainly received revelation that was special, but specific revelation, meaning the Gospel of Christ.

Abraham did not receive the Mystery of the Gospel, it was the hidden wisdom of God and not revealed (apart from prophetic reference which was not understood) until the Comforter came. That is what 1 Corinthians 2 is speaking about.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The Lord both spoke to him directly and appeared to him several times.

Agreed, but that is irrelevant to the point.

Quote:
Abraham was not a shadow; Faith was not a shadow

Abraham is a wonderful, though not necessarily obvious, typical example of how salvation works.

It illustrates grace but we are not saved as Abraham was. Abraham's salvation did not include remission of sins in completion through the Sacrifice of Christ. You seem to understand that the Old Testament was parable and a foreshadowing, so think about it. The best example of comparison is Levitical Service and the sacrifices offered (as well as all sacrifice before Christ): while it pictured Atonement which would come through Christ those sacrifices did not take away sins.


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The explanation is developed fully in the New Testament.

Not developed, but fulfilled and then revealed.

There is a difference, you know.

The Lord did not add to sacrificial offering for the remission of sins, but completed what those offering only foreshadowed (even as a set of plans foreshadows a house to be built). So we need to be careful we take the lesson of Hebrews and instead of seeing them as two parts of a formula, we understand them to be the picture and the reality.

Abram was a pagan idolater living in Ur.

Agreed.

He did not seek the Lord. The Lord sought him.

Agreed.

Neither do we, in our unregenerate state, seek the Lord.

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The Lord seeks us.

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

It wasn’t as if there was something ‘good’ about Abram or his idolatry which caused the Lord to choose him for salvation.

Neither is there anything ‘good’ or ‘admirable’ in us that would cause the Lord to choose us for salvation.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The Lord’s choice of which sinners to save is entirely due to His sovereign, most wise and most holy discretion, independent of anything ‘worthy’ in the sinner.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Abram was commanded to leave his old life behind.

Agreed, 100%.

Those whom the Lord elects unto salvation leave their old life behind.

We need to distinguish between the eternal and the temporal. Eternally speaking we are new creatures possessed of a new nature which is the result of the eternal indwelling.

Temporally we are still inclined to fail. Abraham spoke face to face with God Himself but that didn't keep him from being a liar and seeking provision from somewhere other than God. His faith, as well, had to go through a learning and growth process. He was not a perfect man after being called, even as we not, temporally speaking, perfect. In regards to salvation we have been made perfect forever, meaning in regards to remission of sins the Cross of Christ makes remission complete.

old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

From the eternal perspective, yes, but until I meet the one who never sins once after being saved...I will consider all of us in the same process of growth, myself being head of the list.

The Lord’s calling of Abram was efficacious.

The Lord’s calling of all the Elect is always efficacious.

That is true, however, we do not ascribe remission of sins in completion to Abraham. We do not ascribe eternal indwelling, though the Spirit of God ministered in and through Abraham.

Abraham's last offering, before he died, would have been an animal. He had not yet had his transgression forgiven through Christ.


Hebrews 9:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Called, yes, but he lived on the other side of the Cross.

Darrell, by studying the calling of Abram we have confirmation that the following doctrines are consistent with NT revelation:

1. All men are unbelieving sinners estranged from and at enmity with God.

2. A supernatural revelation of God is necessary to remove man’s unbelief.

Agreed. This has always been true. And remains true for every man coming into this world.

3. The faith needed to leave behind a sinful lifestyle to order to follow the Lord in holiness and truth is a supernatural work of grace which can only be attributed to the His omnipotent power.

I agree with this but we do not take a "Let go and let God" mentality. We have a responsibility to live holy before God, as we are being conformed, temporally to the image of His Son.

It's not a matter of we are saved and instantly sin free.

And while we are in unredeemed flesh we will never be completely free of sin's impact in our lives, whether directly or indirectly.

And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

4. All those drawn to the Lord by the Father will be saved.

Agreed.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Yes, the doctrines of grace are taught in the OT, though, as it were, in shadow form.
__________________

No, Protestant, grace was not a shadow, but in fact the very reason, even as it is for us...that Abraham was called. Apart from that calling Abraham's faith would not have begun to grow in God.

But Again I think the primary issue is understanding that we cannot impose into an Old Testament Economy (take your pick) that which was only promise in the Old Testament:


Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Several important promises were fulfilled in the establishing of the New Covenant, that are critical to salvation in Christ and were not received by the Old Testament Saints: remission of sins in completion, eternal indwelling, and true access to God for every believer.

So again we do not view Abraham as a Christian who had had specific revelation of the Gospel, but a character in the process of the progressive revelation of the Redemptive Plan of God.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

There always WERE more 'regenerate' outside of the Old Covenant than there were within it.

There were no regenerate until Pentecost.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
I am not privy to how events will unfold when the Lord catches up His Church prior to the Tribulation. I don't know how long before the Tribulation this will occur, though I don't think there will be much space between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation.

Fair enough. You DO, however, hold to the theory that all Christians worldwide will escape the ‘Great Tribulation.’

I don't see it as a theory, but a reasonable conclusion seeing that without controversy Paul said the Church would be caught up, and in this event we have both those who have died in Christ then those that remain alive resurrected then caught into the air.

We cannot reconcile the events found within, or after the Tribulation to that teaching.

So the obvious timing? Sometime before the Tribulation. Then, Revelation and it's events fall into place. Men are saved during the Tribulation, some die, some live. When the Kingdom is established only believers enter, as we see the unbelieving survivors destroyed at the Lord's coming, which event is taught about extensively in the Gospels. At that time the Angels gather all things which offend, as opposed to the Lord gathering the Church. It is instantaneous (the Rapture) whereas the gathering of the nations will take some time.

Several pertinent and logical questions arise as to the validity of such a theory.

1. Unless the history of the Church has no relevance to a serious Christian thinker such as yourself, how is it possible, in good conscience, to turn a blind eye to the ‘Great Tribulation’ which millions of godly Christians have endured nigh unto 2,000 years?

I do see the History of the Church as important...that we might learn from our mistakes. If it were not for the Laws we have in place it is likely that some would replicate past behaviors in which people were put to death except they embrace the ruling theology.

While we can say the tribulation suffered by Christians over the millennia has been great, that does not negate the specific revelation of Revelation and other relevant prophecies yet to be fulfilled, Christ said this tribulation would be unequaled in history, and the last century, for example, saw more martyrdom than any previous century, including the first. But why we do not see "Great Tribulation" seen in that century fulfilling prophecy is very simple: Christ did not return.

That Return will not be a spiritual fulfillment consisting of the rule and reign of Christ in the hearts of men, that fulfillment was complete in just a little over a month (not quite two months) after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. The coming of the Comforter fulfills Christ's return in that aspect:


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Christ's literal return is clearly laid out in Revelation and we can follow a timeline of events which is not only sequential but quite detailed. These details agree with Old Testament prophecy which itself corresponds to the fact that every word will be fulfilled to the jot and tittle.

So in regards to great tribulation, as the saying goes..."You ain't seen nothing yet."

During the Tribulation we will see half the world's population die, and at over roughly 7 million people currently alive today, that number is staggering, and makes 20th century tolls pale in comparison.

2. What is it about the present or future generation of Christians that warrants them to escape tribulation? Do you not discern the apostate condition of contemporary Christianity in general? ‘Carnal’ Christianity is the norm, not the exception.

Nothing.

But that echoes the question, what is it about the Elect that warrants they escape eternal separation.

Again...nothing.

Sola gratia, my friend.

3. Why would Jesus Christ pray: I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil….when the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine teaches the exact opposite?

He tells us:


John 17:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


The Lord made it clear to the disciples He was leaving, and that it was necessary for Him to go or He could not send the Comforter. That not only does not preclude a period in which the Lord would be absent...but illustrates it. As does several parables which He taught from.

But to make this an argument against the Rapture is like arguing that Christ will not return because He already came and there is nothing concrete in the Old Testament about Two Comings. It is not until we have this knowledge revealed through the Holy Spirit, the Comforter specifically, that we are able to harmonize all prophecy.

4. In Revelation 7 we are given a ‘behind the scenes’ view of the saints in Heaven. Not one escaped tribulation. There are no raptured saints who escaped tribulation.

And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You're kind of overlooking what the rest of the chapter teaches, aren't you?

Consider:


Revelation 7

King James Version (KJV)

7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


While those saints are pictured in Heaven and revealed as martyrs, we can see that the Tribulation is at least still to unfold.

This does not negate a possibility that the Raptured Church is in Heaven, only establishes that the saints in view are in fact martyrs.

The distinction made concerning the phrase "great tribulation" is overplayed. We don't negate that the entire Tribulation will be "great" though the Lord distinguishes the intensity of the Tribulation when the Abomination which makes desolate is erected. I place this at the midpoint of the Tribulation, when the Two Witnesses are slain, resurrected, then raptured. At that point the intensity of the Tribulation increases in regards to the saints themselves. At that time, the warning to flee Jerusalem (which flight is pictured in ch.12) is due to the persecution that begins in earnest of the people of God. At this time Antichrist is unrevealed for what he is, he claim deity, and demands worship. He puts to death any who will not swear allegiance to himself and those who continue to profess God.

I eagerly await your comments. :>)
Blessings in Christ Jesus, my friend.

Hope that helps. Eschatology is by far more tied to soteriology than most assume. I have heard great men of God make statements to the effect that they admitted negligence of prophecy, which is astounding to me.

But as we harmonize the whole counsel of God's Word, we begin to see a remarkable harmony which illustrates that God has always had the same Redemptive Plan in place, and while He unfolds it progressively, that plan can be seen to be without flaw.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

We who belong to Christ are not natural jews by blood, but Spiritual Jews, who receive not a physical circumcision by man, but the Circumcision of Christ, whose the Head of His Body the Church Col 2:11

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

We who are Spiritual Jews with Spiritual Circumcision are separated from the world and is false religions, for it is written 2 Cor 6:16-18

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

John Gill writes of Vs 17:



But yet Paul under the guidance of the Spirit applies this to the Church, the Body of Christ, who is Spiritual Israel, the Israel of God even !

The word separate is the greek word aphorizo and means:

I rail off, separate, place apart., aphorízō (from 575 /apó, "separated from" and 3724 /horízō, "make boundaries") – properly, separate from a boundary, i.e. a previous condition/situation (note the prefix, apo).

to mark off by boundaries from, i.e. set apart

to appoint, set apart, one for some purpose

Again this applies to the Church of God under the Headship of Christ, also known as the Holy Temple of God 1 Cor 3:16,17

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


These verses refers to the Church, the Body of Christ, not israel according to the flesh. So the Church, the Body of Christ are the Spiritual Jews separated Jews for God's Purpose in Christ !

And Israel, the temporal, created Witness Nation...awaited the promises bestowed upon those of us who have been saved under New Covenant conditions.

Every Old Testament Saint had to await the fulfillment of those promises.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And I have asked you a few times to do something, and you refuse, so you reap what you sow friend !

Hey thanks!

God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

There were no regenerate until Pentecost.


God bless.

Wrong.

...It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3:7,8 YLT

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

 

[OldRegular]

Not special revelation, though Abraham certainly received revelation that was special, but specific revelation, meaning the Gospel of Christ.

Abraham did not receive the Mystery of the Gospel, it was the hidden wisdom of God and not revealed (apart from prophetic reference which was not understood) until the Comforter came. That is what 1 Corinthians 2 is speaking about.

So God, speaking through the Apostle Paul, was mistaken when He had Paul write:

Galatians 3:8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

God has already told us that there is only one Gospel!

 

[OldRegular]

There were no regenerate until Pentecost.


God bless.

Are you saying no one was saved before Pentecost?