Or as Piper says in a book on the Bible, those autographs were written by people whom either associated with Christ, or his disciples.
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The Johannine Comma & Biblical Inspiration
- Thread starter evangelist6589
- Start date
Or as Piper says in a book on the Bible, those autographs were written by people whom either associated with Christ, or his disciples.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
If the mss that omit the comma are not the best, then we only have a few mss that you would consider reliable.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Yup. Just as I said here.
That would be a correct statement. So 1 John 5:7 is not in the closer manuscripts and documents to Christ's death.
1Jo 5:7
7 (For ther are thre which beare recorde in heuen the father the worde and the wholy goost. And these thre are one)
(TyndaleBible)
1Jo 5:7
7 For thre ben, that yyuen witnessing in heuene, the Fadir, the Sone, and the Hooli Goost; and these thre ben oon.
(WYC)
Wanna try some other lame excuse, besides attacking the KJV?
7 (For ther are thre which beare recorde in heuen the father the worde and the wholy goost. And these thre are one)
(TyndaleBible)
1Jo 5:7
7 For thre ben, that yyuen witnessing in heuene, the Fadir, the Sone, and the Hooli Goost; and these thre ben oon.
(WYC)
Wanna try some other lame excuse, besides attacking the KJV?
You wanna pretend that these two Bibles were translated from the same MSS?
Greektim
Well-Known Member
From the TR, or something like it, sure.
The only reason the KJV is "attacked" is b/c guys like you prop it up on a pedestal and tell all the other translations to go away. Personally, I'm sick of the KJV. It was a gift for its time, but that time has run its course. God has gifted us with newer and better translations/gifts.
How many mss do we have that even contain 1 John?
From http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-father-the-word-and-the-holy-ghost-in-1-john-57 :
The extant Greek manuscript evidence for the Comma is weak. Only 11 "late" Greek manuscripts contain the Comma, with 6 of them having it in the margin by an even later hand:
629 (14th century)
61 (16th century)
918 (16th century)
2473 (17th century)
2318 (18th century)
221 margin (10th century, Comma added later)
635 margin (11th century, Comma added later)
88 margin (12th century, Comma added in 16th century)
429 margin (14th century, Comma added later)
636 margin (15th century, Comma added later)
177 margin (11th century, Comma added later)
With just 11 "late manuscripts" having the Comma, one could easily be persuaded that Greek manuscript support against the Comma is overwhelming. However, consider the following facts:
No extant papyrus contains 1 John 5. Since the earliest Greek manuscript of 1 John 5 is Sinaiticus from 350 AD, there is at least a 250 year gap between the composition of 1 John 5 and the earliest witness of it. This is sufficient time for the text to be corrupted.
Although there are 5000+ Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, manuscripts which contain 1 John 5 are limited to about 480 manuscripts. Although the majority of these manuscripts lacks the Comma, the majority also lacks the latter half of 1 John 2:23 (as shown above in this article).
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Most people who make statements like this have not really looked into the character of these "Oldest and best" manuscripts."
If they are both closer to the originals then how come they differ from each other in over 3,000 places in the Gospels alone?
Here is a some info from Will Kinney:
Dean John William Burgon, personally collated the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus manuscripts. In his book, "The Revision Revised", which he wrote in 1881, he gives his opinion and lists undeniable facts about what these two manuscripts say.
Mr. Burgon states on page 11; "Singular to relate Vaticanus and Aleph have within the last 20 years established a tyrannical ascendance over the imagination of the Critics, which can only be fitly spoken of as a blind superstition. It matters nothing that they are discovered on careful scrutiny to differ essentially, not only from ninety-nine out of a hundred of the whole body of extant MSS. besides, but even from one another. In the gospels alone B (Vaticanus) is found to omit at least 2877 words: to add 536, to substitute, 935; to transpose, 2098: to modify 1132 (in all 7578): - the corresponding figures for Aleph being 3455 omitted, 839 added, 1114 substituted, 2299 transposed, 1265 modified (in all 8972). And be it remembered that the omissions, additions, substitutions, transpositions, and modifications, are by no means the same in both. It is in fact easier to find two consecutive verses in which these two mss. differ the one from the other, than two consecutive verses in which they entirely agree."
On page 319 he remarks, "In the Gospels alone Vaticanus has 589 readings quite peculiar to itself, affecting 858 words while Aleph has 1460 such readings, affecting 2640 words."
In his book, Revision Revised, Dean Burgon wrote over a hundred years ago, concerning the ages of Codices Vatican (B) and Sinai (Aleph): Quote: "Lastly, - We suspect that these two Manuscripts are indebted for their preservation, solely to their ascertained evil character, which has occasioned that the one eventually found its way, four centuries ago, to a forgotten shelf in the Vatican library; while the other, after exercising the ingenuity of several generations of critical Correctors, eventually (viz. in A.D. 1844) got deposited in the waste-paper basket of the Convent at the foot of mount Sinai. Had B and Aleph been copies of average purity, they must long since have shared the inevitable fate of books which are freely used and highly prized; namely, they would have fallen into decadence and disappeared from sight." (Ref: P1)
In short these two codices are old simply because, first, they were written on extremely expensive and durable antelope skins, and secondly, they were so full of errors, alterations, additions and deletions, that they were never used by true believers and seldom even by their own custodians. Thus they had little chance of wearing away.
End Quote from Will Kinney. ( Full Article at http://brandplucked.webs.com/oldestandbestmss.htm )
How come people think they are closer to the originals when they aren't even close to each other?
Isn't it obvious that they are corrupt?
Here is a link to info on Sinaiticus:
http://www.deanburgonsociety.org/CriticalTexts/sinaiticus.htm
Heres another link on these so called "oldest and best" manuscripts.
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more from http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-father-the-word-and-the-holy-ghost-in-1-john-57:
Historical manuscripts
Although few extant Greek manuscripts contain the Comma, scholars during the Reformation era testified that a good number of manuscripts contained the Comma. John Gill, commenting on 1 John 5:7 says the Comma is found "in the Complutensian edition, the compilers of which made use of various copies; and out of sixteen ancient copies of Robert Stephens's, nine of them had it" (Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible). These manuscripts underlying the Complutensian Polyglot and the 16 "ancient" copies of Stephanus no longer exist.
John Calvin, commenting on 1 John 5:7, said, "The whole of this verse has been by some omitted. Jerome thinks that this has happened through design rather than through mistake, and that indeed only on the part of the Latins. But as even the Greek copies do not agree, I dare not assert any thing on the subject." (Calvin's Commentaries). Apparently in Calvin's time there were more Greek manuscripts with the Comma so as to give rise to a disagreement among the Greek copies. As for critics saying that Calvin was referring to printed "copies" of the Greek rather than manuscript "copies", such speculation is unwarranted considering that Calvin refers far back as Jerome and is obviously speaking from a text-critical perspective.
Francis Cheynell was the president of St. John's College, Oxford from 1648 to 1650. He lived not too long after the collation of the Textus Receptus and the translation of the KJV. He says in his lifetime there were many ancient copies of manuscripts with the Comma despite some ancient copies lacking them. The following are excerpts from his book, The divine trinunity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, published in 1650:
"But it is objected by some that the words, These three are one. I Joh.5.7 are not to be found in some ancient Copies, and therefore it will not be safe to build a point of such weight and consequence upon such a weake foundation. To which we answer, It is true that these words are not to be found in the Syriak Edition, but they who speake most modestly, do acknowledge that the Syriack Edition is not Authentick." (p. 251)
"But then it is farther objected, that these words These three are one are wanting in some other Greek copies; for answer I proceed with my observations." (p. 253)
"8. These words, I Ioh.5.7. are to be found in copies of great antiquity and best credit." (p. 255)
ONLINE LINK TO Google Book: The divine trinunity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Historical manuscripts
Although few extant Greek manuscripts contain the Comma, scholars during the Reformation era testified that a good number of manuscripts contained the Comma. John Gill, commenting on 1 John 5:7 says the Comma is found "in the Complutensian edition, the compilers of which made use of various copies; and out of sixteen ancient copies of Robert Stephens's, nine of them had it" (Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible). These manuscripts underlying the Complutensian Polyglot and the 16 "ancient" copies of Stephanus no longer exist.
John Calvin, commenting on 1 John 5:7, said, "The whole of this verse has been by some omitted. Jerome thinks that this has happened through design rather than through mistake, and that indeed only on the part of the Latins. But as even the Greek copies do not agree, I dare not assert any thing on the subject." (Calvin's Commentaries). Apparently in Calvin's time there were more Greek manuscripts with the Comma so as to give rise to a disagreement among the Greek copies. As for critics saying that Calvin was referring to printed "copies" of the Greek rather than manuscript "copies", such speculation is unwarranted considering that Calvin refers far back as Jerome and is obviously speaking from a text-critical perspective.
Francis Cheynell was the president of St. John's College, Oxford from 1648 to 1650. He lived not too long after the collation of the Textus Receptus and the translation of the KJV. He says in his lifetime there were many ancient copies of manuscripts with the Comma despite some ancient copies lacking them. The following are excerpts from his book, The divine trinunity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, published in 1650:
"But it is objected by some that the words, These three are one. I Joh.5.7 are not to be found in some ancient Copies, and therefore it will not be safe to build a point of such weight and consequence upon such a weake foundation. To which we answer, It is true that these words are not to be found in the Syriak Edition, but they who speake most modestly, do acknowledge that the Syriack Edition is not Authentick." (p. 251)
"But then it is farther objected, that these words These three are one are wanting in some other Greek copies; for answer I proceed with my observations." (p. 253)
"8. These words, I Ioh.5.7. are to be found in copies of great antiquity and best credit." (p. 255)
ONLINE LINK TO Google Book: The divine trinunity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
From http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-father-the-word-and-the-holy-ghost-in-1-john-57:
Athanasius
Athanasius appears to have quoted the Comma in Disputatio Contra Arium:
"Τί δὲ καὶ τὸ τῆς ἀφέσεως τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν παρεκτικὸν, καὶ ζωοποιὸν, καὶ ἁγιαστικὸν λουτρὸν, οὗ χωρὶς οὐδεὶς ὄψεται τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν, οὐκ ἐν τῇ τρισμακαρίᾳ ὀνομασίᾳ δίδοται τοῖς πιστοῖς; Πρὸς δὲ τούτοις πᾶσιν Ἰωάννης φάσκει· «Καὶ οἱ τρεῖς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν.»"
"But also, is not that sin-remitting, life-giving and sanctifying washing [baptism], without which, no one shall see the kingdom of heaven, given to the faithful in the Thrice-Blessed Name? In addition to all these, John affirms, 'and these three are one.'" (Translation by KJV Today)
ONLINE LINK to Disputatio Contra Arium
Athanasius' quote, "Καὶ οἱ τρεῖς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν", is not an exact quotation of "και ουτοι οι τρεις εν εισιν" of the Comma in verse 7; but it is neither an exact quotation of "και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν" in verse 8. More likely than not, Athanasius' quote is from the Comma because the quote captures all the essential elements of the sense of the Comma. A quotation of verse 8 would require the additional word "εις (in)", which is an essential element in conveying the sense of verse 8. In any case, the greatest proof that Athanasius quoted the Comma is that he quoted "and these three are one" in the explicit context of the Trinity (of Matthew 28:19).
Tertullian (215 AD)
Tertullian makes a truncated reference to the Comma:
"Ita connexus Patris in Filio et Filii in Paracleto, tres efficit coharentes, alterum ex altere, qui tres unum sunt, non unus, quomodo dictum est, Ego et Pater unum sumus." (Against Praxeas XXV).
"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, one from the other, which three are one, not one [person], as it is said, "I and my Father are One."" (Translation by KJV Today)
Some translations in English obscure Tertullian's reference to the Comma. Tertullian makes the truncated reference, “tres unum sunt” and argues for the consubstantial unity of the Father and the Son with the reference to John 10:30. He did not quote the Comma fully because a full quotation has "the Word" instead of "the Son".
Furthermore, Tertullian alludes to the Comma in De Baptismo:
"Not that in the waters we obtain the Holy Spirit; but in the water, under (the witness of) the angel, we are cleansed, and prepared for the Holy Spirit. In this case also a type has preceded; for thus was John beforehand the Lord's forerunner, preparing His ways. Thus, too, does the angel, the witness of baptism, make the paths straight for the Holy Spirit, who is about to come upon us, by the washing away of sins, which faith, sealed in (the name of) the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, obtains. For if in the mouth of three witnesses every word shall stand: — while, through the benediction, we have the same (three) as witnesses of our faith whom we have as sureties of our salvation too— how much more does the number of the divine names suffice for the assurance of our hope likewise! Moreover, after the pledging both of the attestation of faith and the promise of salvation under three witnesses, there is added, of necessity, mention of the Church; inasmuch as, wherever there are three, (that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,) there is the Church, which is a body of three." (English translation by New Advent)
Here Tertullian is alluding to two Trinitarian passages: Matthew 28:19 ("Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:") and 1 John 5:7 ("For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."). It is significant that he does not explicitly quote Matthew 28:19, because that means we have no reason to expect him to quote 1 John 5:7 explicitly. It is obviously that Matthew 28:19 is alluded because the issue concerns baptism in the name of the Trinity. However, Matthew 28:19 alone falls short of describing the Trinity as "three witnesses" concerning "the attestation of faith and the promise of salvation". This is a matter described in 1 John 5 verse 7 to 12.
Cyprian (250 AD)
Cyprian quotes the Comma:
“Dicit Dominus, Ego et Pater unum sumus; et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu sancto scriptum est: 'Et tres unum sunt.'” (Treatise I:6).
"The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one."
While some might argue that Cyprian was giving a theological spin to 1 John 5:8, Cyprian clearly says "scriptum est" (it is written). As with Tertullian, Cyprian would not have given the full quotation because the Comma has "the Word" instead of "the Son"
Priscillian (350 AD)
Priscillian quotes the Comma:
"Sicut Ioannes ait: Tria sunt quae testimonium dicunt in terra: aqua caro et sanguis; et haec tria in unum sunt et tria sunt quae testimonium dicunt in caelo: pater, verbum et spiritus; et haec tria unum sunt in Christo Iesu." (Liber Apologeticus, I.4)
"As John says, "There are three that give testimony in earth: the water, the flesh and the blood; and these three are one and there are three that give testimony in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Spirit; and these three are one in Christ Jesus." (Translation by KJV Today)
The order of verse 7 and 8 is reversed, but the Comma nonetheless existed by 350 AD, which is the date of the earliest Greek manuscripts against the Comma (e.g. Sinaiticus and Vaticanus). Some critics dismiss the significance of Priscillian's citation due to the fact that he was considered a heretic. These critics may even go as far as to say that Priscillian forged the Comma. But Priscillian was considered a heretic because of his extreme asceticism and Manichaeism. Forging the Comma would not have helped in furthering any of these heretical beliefs.
Vigilius Tapsensis (450)
North African Bishop Vigilius Tapsensis quotes the Comma in Contra Varimadum in 450AD and three times in Books 1 and 10 of De Trinitate Libri Duodecim in 480 AD:
Contra Varimadum:
“Item ipse ad Parthos: Tres sunt, inquit, qui testimonium perhibent in terra, aqua, sanguis et caro, et tres in nobis sunt. Et tres sunt qui testimonium perhibent in ceolo, Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus, et ii tres unum sunt.” (Contra Varimadum, Book I, Chapter 5 (MPL062, col. 359))
“Also to the Parthians, ‘There are three’, He says, ‘that bear record in earth, the water, the blood and the flesh, and the three are in us. And there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one.” (Translation by KJV Today)
De Trinitate Libri Duodecim:
“Ergo quamvis in superioribus exemplis Scripturarum tacita sint nomina personarum, tamen unitum nomen divinitatis per omnia tibi est in his demonstratum; sicut et in hoc exemplo veritatis, in quo nomina personarum evidenter sunt ostensa, et unitum nomen divinitatis clause est declaratum, dicente Joanne evangelista in Epistola sua: Tres sunt qui testimonium dicunt in caelo, Pater, et Verbum, et Spiritus, et in Chisto Jesu unum sunt;” (De Trinitate Libri Duodecim , Book I (MPL062, col. 243))
“Therefore, although in the above examples the Scriptures are silent regarding the names of the persons, yet this union of the divine name by all in this is to be demonstrated to you; also as in this example of the truth, in which the names of the persons are clearly evident, and the united divine names declared closed, the Evangelist John says in his Epistle: ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, and the Word, and the Spirit, and they are one in the Lord Jesus Christ;” (Translation by KJV Today)
Do you want more?
Here's more from KJV Today:
Victor Vitensis (485)
Victor bishop of Vita cited the Comma as representing the testimony of John the evangelist in a dispute with Huneric the Vandal:
“Et ut adhuc luce clarius unius divinitatis esse cum Patre et Filio Spiritum sanctum doceamus, Joannis evangelistae testimonio comprobatur. Ait namque: Tres sunt qui testimonium perhibent in caelo, Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus sanctus, et his tres unum sunt.” (Historia persecutionis Africanae Provinciae, Book III, Chapter XI (MPL058, col. 227)
“And in order to show with clearer light that the unity of divinity is with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, John the evangelist bears record. For which it is said: ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.’” (Translation by KJV Today)
Fulgentius Ruspensis (527)
Fulgentius bishop of Ruspe in North Africa cited the Comma, even referring to Cyprian’s citation of the same:
Responsio Contra Arianos Libri Duo:
“In Patre ergo et Filio et Spiritu sancto unitatem substantiae accipimus, personas confundere non ademus. Beatu enim Joannes apostolus testatur, dicen: Tres sunt qui testimonium perhibent in caelo, Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus; et tres unum sunt. Quod etiam beatissimus martyr Cyprianus, in epistola de Unitate Ecclesiae confitetur, dicens: Qui pacem Christi et concordiam rumpit, adversus Christum facit; qui alibi praeter Ecclesiam colligit, Christi Ecclesiam spargit. Atque ut unam Ecclesiam unius Dei esse monstraret, haec confestim testimonia de Scripturis inseruit. Dicit Dominus: Ego et Pater unum sumus. Et iterum: De Patre et Filio et Spiritu sancto scriptum et: Et tres unum sunt.” (Responsio Contra Arianos Libri Duo, Response 10 (MPL065, col. 224))
In the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, whose unity of substance we accept, are confident not to confound the persons. For the blessed John the Apostle testifies, saying: ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit; and the three are one. This is also confessed by the most blessed martyr Cyprian in the letter On the Unity of the Church, saying: ‘He who breaks the peace and concord of Christ, he does against Christ’, who in another place says in addition to a collection of the Church, says, ‘scatters the Church of Christ’. And in order to show that there is one Church of the one God, he immediately inserted this into the testimonies of the Scriptures: ‘The Lord says: I and the Father are one. And again: of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: ;And the three are one.’” (Translation by KJV Today)
Victor Vitensis (485)
Victor bishop of Vita cited the Comma as representing the testimony of John the evangelist in a dispute with Huneric the Vandal:
“Et ut adhuc luce clarius unius divinitatis esse cum Patre et Filio Spiritum sanctum doceamus, Joannis evangelistae testimonio comprobatur. Ait namque: Tres sunt qui testimonium perhibent in caelo, Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus sanctus, et his tres unum sunt.” (Historia persecutionis Africanae Provinciae, Book III, Chapter XI (MPL058, col. 227)
“And in order to show with clearer light that the unity of divinity is with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, John the evangelist bears record. For which it is said: ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.’” (Translation by KJV Today)
Fulgentius Ruspensis (527)
Fulgentius bishop of Ruspe in North Africa cited the Comma, even referring to Cyprian’s citation of the same:
Responsio Contra Arianos Libri Duo:
“In Patre ergo et Filio et Spiritu sancto unitatem substantiae accipimus, personas confundere non ademus. Beatu enim Joannes apostolus testatur, dicen: Tres sunt qui testimonium perhibent in caelo, Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus; et tres unum sunt. Quod etiam beatissimus martyr Cyprianus, in epistola de Unitate Ecclesiae confitetur, dicens: Qui pacem Christi et concordiam rumpit, adversus Christum facit; qui alibi praeter Ecclesiam colligit, Christi Ecclesiam spargit. Atque ut unam Ecclesiam unius Dei esse monstraret, haec confestim testimonia de Scripturis inseruit. Dicit Dominus: Ego et Pater unum sumus. Et iterum: De Patre et Filio et Spiritu sancto scriptum et: Et tres unum sunt.” (Responsio Contra Arianos Libri Duo, Response 10 (MPL065, col. 224))
In the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, whose unity of substance we accept, are confident not to confound the persons. For the blessed John the Apostle testifies, saying: ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit; and the three are one. This is also confessed by the most blessed martyr Cyprian in the letter On the Unity of the Church, saying: ‘He who breaks the peace and concord of Christ, he does against Christ’, who in another place says in addition to a collection of the Church, says, ‘scatters the Church of Christ’. And in order to show that there is one Church of the one God, he immediately inserted this into the testimonies of the Scriptures: ‘The Lord says: I and the Father are one. And again: of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: ;And the three are one.’” (Translation by KJV Today)
More From http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-father-the-word-and-the-holy-ghost-in-1-john-57
Evidence of Arian deletion of Trinitarian scriptures
If the Comma was not accidentally removed, it could have been removed intentionally by heretics. Yale professor of ecclesiastical history, Jaroslav Pelikan, notes that theologians of the past suspected that Arians expunged the Comma:
"Although the weight of the textual evidence against it was seemingly overwhelming, the proof it supplied for the Trinity made an attack on its authenticity seem to be an attack on the dogma. Therefore the Reformed theologian Johann Heinrich Heidegger, citing Jerome, and the Lutheran theologians Johann Gerhard and Johann Andreas Quenstedt argued that the real corruption of the Greek text had been its "erasure by the fraud of the Arians," not its addition by orthodox fathers. In a lengthy disputation on the question, Gerhard marshaled the evidence of manuscripts and versions in an effort to show this, and in his systematic theology he reaffirmed its authenticity." (Jaroslav Pelikan, The Christian Tradition: Reformation of Church Dogma (1300-1700) at 346)
The Orthodox remnant viewed the notorious Arians with much suspicion. Athanasius had complained of the Arians' “calumnies, imprisonments, murders, wounds, conspiracies by means of false letters” (Apologia Contra Arianos at 49). Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (4th century) tells us of how much influence the Arians exerted in determining which manuscripts to use. He wrote in chapter 10 of On the Holy Spirit:
"The Divinity of the Holy Spirit is supported by a passage of St. John. This passage was, indeed, erased by heretics, but it is a vain attempt, since their faithlessness could thereby more easily be convicted.The order of the context is considered in order that this passage may be shown to refer to the Spirit. He is born of the Spirit who is born again of the same Spirit, of Whom Christ Himself is believed to have been born and born again. Again, the Godhead of the Spirit is inferred from two testimonies of St. John; and lastly, it is explained how the Spirit, the water, and the blood are called witnesses.
59. Nor does the Scripture in this place alone bear witness to the θεότης, that is, the Godhead of the Holy Spirit; but also the Lord Himself said in the Gospel: "The Spirit is God." Which passage you, Arians, so expressly testify to be said concerning the Spirit, that you remove it from your copies, and would that it were from yours and not also from those of the Church! For at the time when Auxentius had seized the Church of Milan with the arms and forces of impious unbelief, the Church of Sirmium was attacked by Valens and Ursatius, when their priests [i.e. bishops] failed in faith; this falsehood and sacrilege of yours was found in the ecclesiastical books. And it may chance that you did the same in the past [sic; should read "East" as the Latin reads "Oriente" (MPL16, col. 790: De Spiritu Sancto Lib. III, C. 10)].
60. And you have indeed been able to blot out the letters, but could not remove the faith. That erasure betrayed you more, that erasure condemned you more; and you were not able to obliterate the truth, but that erasure blotted out your names from the book of life. Why was the passage removed, For God is a Spirit, if it did not pertain to the Spirit? For if you will have it that the expression is used of God the Father, you, who think it should be erased, deny, in consequence, God the Father. Choose which you will, in each the snare of your own impiety will bind you if you confess yourselves to be heathen by denying either the Father or the Spirit to be God. Therefore your confession wherein you have blotted out the Word of God remains, while you fear the original." (On the Holy Spirit, Book III, chapter 10 at www.newadvent.org)
As Ambrose is referring to John 3:6, he is actually wrong about the Arians corrupting it. John 3:6 should not have "The Spirit is God". So the Arians sometimes imported correct readings from the East. The point, however, is that the Arians held a lot of control over which readings to adopt in the churches. And this also shows the Arian propensity towards non-Trinitarian readings (though sometimes their instincts were correct, as in John 3:6). We must give the Arians credit where credit is due for correcting John 3:6, but this means it was certainly possible for the Arians to over-reach and suspect an overzealous-Trinitarian corruption even in places that were authentic. 1 John 5:7 could be one of those places.
The Comma existed where Arianism was less prevalent
The hypothesis that Arians expunged the Comma is valid because it is falsifiable: the hypothesis could be proven false if the Comma does not exist even in places where Arianism did not exert much influence. However, the evidence supports the hypothesis. The Comma does exist in places where Arianism was not as prevalent, especially in the earlier centuries. The earliest attestations to the Comma are from Spain and North Africa - places where Arianism was not as prevalent early on. Whereas Constantinople and Alexandria were infected with Arianism by the 4th century, Spain and North Africa were relatively less infected until the 5th century. Geographically, Spain and North Africa were the farthest places from the major centers of Arianism. Moreover, whereas primarily Greek and Latin speakers spread Arianism in the rest of Christendom, Spain was introduced to Arianism through Visigoths and North Africa was introduced to Arianism through Vandals. These were both Germanic tribes who used the Gothic Bible of Ulfilas. Thus Arians in Spain and North Africa had less incentive to influence the Latin scriptures. This allowed the Comma to remain in Latin manuscripts of Spain and North Africa.
The first undisputed quote of the Comma is by the Spanish Priscillian in 350 AD (Liber Apologeticus). Cyprian of North Africa may have alluded to the Comma in 250 AD: “et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu sancto scriptum est: 'Et tres unim sunt.'” (Treatise I:6). Tertullian, also from North Africa, may have alluded to the Comma in 215 AD (chapter 25 of Against Praxeas). The earliest extant Old Latin and Vulgate manuscripts which have the Comma are from Spain:
Palimpset of Leon Cathedral (7th century)
Fragment of Freising (7th century)
Codex Cavensis (9th century)
Codex Complutensis (10th century)
Codex Toletanus (10th century)
Codex Theodulphianus (8th or 9th century)
Some Sangallense MSS (8th or 9th century)
This localization of manuscripts containing the Comma has led scholars to believe that the Comma was just an anomalous reading in an obscure part of Christendom. However, as mentioned, this "obscure part of Christendom" is where Arianism was not prevalent in the earlier centuries. By the fourth century, Arianism had infected a great portion of Christendom. The Arian Emperor Constantius went as far as to exile all bishops professing Trinitarian doctrine, including Athanasius. Athanasius noted the Arians of their “calumnies, imprisonments, murders, wounds, conspiracies by means of false letters….” (Apologia Contra Arianos at 49). It is inconceivable that these heretical Arians would have transmitted the Comma if it ever appeared in a copy. Ambrose exposed the Arians in their corruption of Scripture (On the Holy Spirit, 10).
A single generation of prolific Arian copyist activity in the early 4th century would have created a majority of copies of 1 John 5 without the Comma. Just as one Catholic man, Erasmus, popularized the inclusion of the Comma in the Greek texts of Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants from the 16th century onward, a few scholarly Arians could have popularized the omission of the Comma in the Greek texts of both Arians and Trinitarians from the 4th century onward. If Protestants could accept the reading of a Catholic for 400 years, it is certainly within the realm of possibility for the Orthodox Greeks to accept the reading of Arians for many centuries (until the reinstatement of the Comma in the 1904 Patriarchal Text, as will be discussed below). The argument against the Comma, that it was included by the Latin Church because of tradition, goes both ways. It may be that the Greek Church excluded the Comma for centuries because of the tradition of not including it. The Greek Church was just as steeped in its own traditions as any other High Church.
Evidence of Arian deletion of Trinitarian scriptures
If the Comma was not accidentally removed, it could have been removed intentionally by heretics. Yale professor of ecclesiastical history, Jaroslav Pelikan, notes that theologians of the past suspected that Arians expunged the Comma:
"Although the weight of the textual evidence against it was seemingly overwhelming, the proof it supplied for the Trinity made an attack on its authenticity seem to be an attack on the dogma. Therefore the Reformed theologian Johann Heinrich Heidegger, citing Jerome, and the Lutheran theologians Johann Gerhard and Johann Andreas Quenstedt argued that the real corruption of the Greek text had been its "erasure by the fraud of the Arians," not its addition by orthodox fathers. In a lengthy disputation on the question, Gerhard marshaled the evidence of manuscripts and versions in an effort to show this, and in his systematic theology he reaffirmed its authenticity." (Jaroslav Pelikan, The Christian Tradition: Reformation of Church Dogma (1300-1700) at 346)
The Orthodox remnant viewed the notorious Arians with much suspicion. Athanasius had complained of the Arians' “calumnies, imprisonments, murders, wounds, conspiracies by means of false letters” (Apologia Contra Arianos at 49). Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (4th century) tells us of how much influence the Arians exerted in determining which manuscripts to use. He wrote in chapter 10 of On the Holy Spirit:
"The Divinity of the Holy Spirit is supported by a passage of St. John. This passage was, indeed, erased by heretics, but it is a vain attempt, since their faithlessness could thereby more easily be convicted.The order of the context is considered in order that this passage may be shown to refer to the Spirit. He is born of the Spirit who is born again of the same Spirit, of Whom Christ Himself is believed to have been born and born again. Again, the Godhead of the Spirit is inferred from two testimonies of St. John; and lastly, it is explained how the Spirit, the water, and the blood are called witnesses.
59. Nor does the Scripture in this place alone bear witness to the θεότης, that is, the Godhead of the Holy Spirit; but also the Lord Himself said in the Gospel: "The Spirit is God." Which passage you, Arians, so expressly testify to be said concerning the Spirit, that you remove it from your copies, and would that it were from yours and not also from those of the Church! For at the time when Auxentius had seized the Church of Milan with the arms and forces of impious unbelief, the Church of Sirmium was attacked by Valens and Ursatius, when their priests [i.e. bishops] failed in faith; this falsehood and sacrilege of yours was found in the ecclesiastical books. And it may chance that you did the same in the past [sic; should read "East" as the Latin reads "Oriente" (MPL16, col. 790: De Spiritu Sancto Lib. III, C. 10)].
60. And you have indeed been able to blot out the letters, but could not remove the faith. That erasure betrayed you more, that erasure condemned you more; and you were not able to obliterate the truth, but that erasure blotted out your names from the book of life. Why was the passage removed, For God is a Spirit, if it did not pertain to the Spirit? For if you will have it that the expression is used of God the Father, you, who think it should be erased, deny, in consequence, God the Father. Choose which you will, in each the snare of your own impiety will bind you if you confess yourselves to be heathen by denying either the Father or the Spirit to be God. Therefore your confession wherein you have blotted out the Word of God remains, while you fear the original." (On the Holy Spirit, Book III, chapter 10 at www.newadvent.org)
As Ambrose is referring to John 3:6, he is actually wrong about the Arians corrupting it. John 3:6 should not have "The Spirit is God". So the Arians sometimes imported correct readings from the East. The point, however, is that the Arians held a lot of control over which readings to adopt in the churches. And this also shows the Arian propensity towards non-Trinitarian readings (though sometimes their instincts were correct, as in John 3:6). We must give the Arians credit where credit is due for correcting John 3:6, but this means it was certainly possible for the Arians to over-reach and suspect an overzealous-Trinitarian corruption even in places that were authentic. 1 John 5:7 could be one of those places.
The Comma existed where Arianism was less prevalent
The hypothesis that Arians expunged the Comma is valid because it is falsifiable: the hypothesis could be proven false if the Comma does not exist even in places where Arianism did not exert much influence. However, the evidence supports the hypothesis. The Comma does exist in places where Arianism was not as prevalent, especially in the earlier centuries. The earliest attestations to the Comma are from Spain and North Africa - places where Arianism was not as prevalent early on. Whereas Constantinople and Alexandria were infected with Arianism by the 4th century, Spain and North Africa were relatively less infected until the 5th century. Geographically, Spain and North Africa were the farthest places from the major centers of Arianism. Moreover, whereas primarily Greek and Latin speakers spread Arianism in the rest of Christendom, Spain was introduced to Arianism through Visigoths and North Africa was introduced to Arianism through Vandals. These were both Germanic tribes who used the Gothic Bible of Ulfilas. Thus Arians in Spain and North Africa had less incentive to influence the Latin scriptures. This allowed the Comma to remain in Latin manuscripts of Spain and North Africa.
The first undisputed quote of the Comma is by the Spanish Priscillian in 350 AD (Liber Apologeticus). Cyprian of North Africa may have alluded to the Comma in 250 AD: “et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu sancto scriptum est: 'Et tres unim sunt.'” (Treatise I:6). Tertullian, also from North Africa, may have alluded to the Comma in 215 AD (chapter 25 of Against Praxeas). The earliest extant Old Latin and Vulgate manuscripts which have the Comma are from Spain:
Palimpset of Leon Cathedral (7th century)
Fragment of Freising (7th century)
Codex Cavensis (9th century)
Codex Complutensis (10th century)
Codex Toletanus (10th century)
Codex Theodulphianus (8th or 9th century)
Some Sangallense MSS (8th or 9th century)
This localization of manuscripts containing the Comma has led scholars to believe that the Comma was just an anomalous reading in an obscure part of Christendom. However, as mentioned, this "obscure part of Christendom" is where Arianism was not prevalent in the earlier centuries. By the fourth century, Arianism had infected a great portion of Christendom. The Arian Emperor Constantius went as far as to exile all bishops professing Trinitarian doctrine, including Athanasius. Athanasius noted the Arians of their “calumnies, imprisonments, murders, wounds, conspiracies by means of false letters….” (Apologia Contra Arianos at 49). It is inconceivable that these heretical Arians would have transmitted the Comma if it ever appeared in a copy. Ambrose exposed the Arians in their corruption of Scripture (On the Holy Spirit, 10).
A single generation of prolific Arian copyist activity in the early 4th century would have created a majority of copies of 1 John 5 without the Comma. Just as one Catholic man, Erasmus, popularized the inclusion of the Comma in the Greek texts of Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants from the 16th century onward, a few scholarly Arians could have popularized the omission of the Comma in the Greek texts of both Arians and Trinitarians from the 4th century onward. If Protestants could accept the reading of a Catholic for 400 years, it is certainly within the realm of possibility for the Orthodox Greeks to accept the reading of Arians for many centuries (until the reinstatement of the Comma in the 1904 Patriarchal Text, as will be discussed below). The argument against the Comma, that it was included by the Latin Church because of tradition, goes both ways. It may be that the Greek Church excluded the Comma for centuries because of the tradition of not including it. The Greek Church was just as steeped in its own traditions as any other High Church.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
:thumbsup: ^ This ^
It may be, if, the hypothesis, could be, could have been, not inconceivable.
Hmm...a lot of conjecture going on there Jordon. All these conspiracy theories dance in the heads of the KJVO mindset; whether it's the dreaded Alexandrian cult,the Jesuit plots or whatever. None of these, including the Arians, have been successful in eradicating biblical doctrines as you buy into --not even Satan himself. Give it it up Jordon. Let common sense prevail.
DB and WK,two sources not to be trusted in this realm;although the former was a true scholar.
Fascinating facts Jordon.