The Journey Home

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Perhaps we shouldn't study the Bible and pray to God for guidance.

If I were you I certainly wouldn't.
If Jesus is not the one and only Most High God, then who is your Father. According to Jesus:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Think twice before you pray. That's one "father" I wouldn't want to pray to.
Better yet, rethink who Jesus really is.
DHK

 

[Chrift]

rethink who Jesus really is.

Yes let us...

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form," - Colossians 2:9

"But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom." - Hebrews 1:8

"Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." - Acts 20:28

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." - John 1:1, 14

"Jesus said to them, 'My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.' For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own father, making himself equal with God." - John 5:17, 18

"Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'" - John 20:28


Jesus Christ is God.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Kelly,

What, you think they were able to say Jesus is the Son of God without ALREADY knowing it?

They're angelic spirits. They can see who Jesus is immediately, unlike us humans who receive knowledge through the five senses, none of which can detect divinity.

I don't believe anything unless I study it from the Bible without the aid of MEN telling me what the Bible should mean.

That's a riot, Kelly. So, you're telling me that this whole "Jesus is really Michael the Archangel!" parade is your honest-to-God simple reading of Scripture apart from the aid of men telling you what the Bible means?

Can you honestly affirm that in good conscience? If so, God bless you.

So what if he was a martyr. There are lots of martyrs, does that mean I should believe EVERYTHING that EVERY martyr teaches?

I'm sorry, but I must have missed the evidence from the other martyrs who learned at the feet of the disciple John. Who were they?

 

[BobRyan]

Chrift ,
"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form," - Colossians 2:9

"But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom." - Hebrews 1:8

"Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." - Acts 20:28

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." - John 1:1, 14

"Jesus said to them, 'My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.' For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own father, making himself equal with God." - John 5:17, 18

"Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'" - John 20:28

This is a great list. I have used this in dialoging with a certain denomination that comes door to door and is known for Arian views on the trinity.

Also I have used the model of taking the "God Alone" texts and showing that Christ claims those attributes.


God alone is from everlasting (so also is Christ)

God alone is immortal - so is Christ.

God alone is the creator - so is Christ.

God alone is the judge of mankind - so is Christ

God alone is to be worshipped - so is Christ to be worshipped.

God alone has life IN Himself - so does Christ.

(Christ claims that He raises HIMSELF from the dead)

God will not share His glory with another - Christ shares God's glory.

Many examples in scripture where the God-alone attributes - are Christ's.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Thess --
Back to the topic at hand, different and conflicting interprutations causing one to search for the fullness of the truth, i.e. the journey home. I found this interesting. Prior to the reformation it is rare that you find someone ("Christian") who disagreed with the doctrine of the real prescence. There was a heretical group in the 4th century called the messelians, a guy around 1070 or so and a few others here and there. After the reformation (within 75 years)in 1577 there was a book written called "200 interpretations of the words "this is my body"" by Christopher Rasperger.

Ahh yes! Back to the subject of THIS thread!

Are we really left with subject matter 1500 years AFTER the NT Apostolic teaching found in God's Word to "tell us what to think"?

As it turns out - "no".

We have the Word of God on the "REAL presence"

Where TWO or three are Gathered IN MY name there I AM.

And of course we have the REAL presence of "CHRIST IN you the hope of Glory".

Here we have biblical "agreement" on the REAL presence and all can read it - see it - and accept it.

Put another way


"For Where two or three of you are gathered IN MY NAME THERE I AM IN your midst" Matt 18:20

"Behold I AM WITH you ALWAYS even to the end of the World" Matt 28:20

"I will NEVER leave you NOR forsake you" Heb 13:5

"CHRIST IN you the hope of Glory" Col 1:27

These are the promises of Christ's PRESENCE that are of benefit to ALL Christians today.

Though the RCC claims to have supplanted them with the magic powers of the priest conjuring the real-presence (as if they could) - yet these promises of Christ -- of scripture - stand today, and Christ is available to all.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[Major B]

When Christ said, "this is my body," and "this is my blood," He can ONLY have meant it representationally, since his body was holding the bread as He spoke, and the fingers holding the cup had His REAL blood flowing through them.

 

[Singer]

So right, MajorB.

That's why I asked previously why those Catholics (?) who were partaking in the
emblems that Jesus offered didn't just chew on his arm and drink the blood that
spilled from his wounds. They'd have had one last chance to catch a little more
blood as he hung on the cross and bled and they didn't do THAT .

Maybe that's why his body disappeared from the tomb .................
THE CATHOLICS ATE IT !!!

(That could explain their exclusive theory of "Christ in Us")

 

[Singer]

(Kelly)

Let's see, I study the BIBLE and seek guidance from God through prayer
over the course of several weeks, praying, reading, reading and praying,
and come to the conclusion that I am at RIGHT NOW, and you want to try
and tell me that DEMONS are responsible?

Singer??????

(DHK)

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Perhaps we shouldn't study the Bible and pray to God for guidance.


If I were you I certainly wouldn't.
If Jesus is not the one and only Most High God, then who is your Father.
According to Jesus:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye
will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Think twice before you pray. That's one "father" I wouldn't want to pray to.
Better yet, rethink who Jesus really is.

(Singer)

Yes, Kelly, we're being condemned for praying dilligently and expecting answers.
DHK, why would you suggest that Kelly not study the bible and pray to God for
guidance?

Referencing your verse in John 8:44, you'll see that verse 42 says "If God were your
Father, you would love me".

That is the telltale sign of who a person's Father is....who they pray to.
Kelly loves Jesus so that would make her Father...God. Just because she does
not make the connection of Jesus/God does not mean she's of the devil. She'd
have to do things alot different than she is to be called a servant of satan.

It's not whether we believe Jesus is God or not that determines our Christianity.
It's whether we believe Jesus rose from the dead, was the Son of God, etc.

I think we're making a bigger issue out of it than Jesus did.

Remember....
The Gospel (Good News) is the life , death and ressurrection of Jesus.

It is not...........that Jesus is God !

We're not here to condemn people for not believing Jesus is God; our motive
for preaching should be in line with spreading the news of eternal life through
believing that Jesus was our savior (whoever He is ) .

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Perhaps we shouldn't study the Bible and pray to God for guidance.

If I were you I certainly wouldn't.
If Jesus is not the one and only Most High God, then who is your Father. According to Jesus:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Think twice before you pray. That's one "father" I wouldn't want to pray to.
Better yet, rethink who Jesus really is.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Although partaking of this antiquated ritual with you has done NO good thus far, I must, for the sake of good Biblical exegesis respond to your misuse of the Word of God.

Jesus said to the Jews that believed on Him in John 8:44, that Satan was their father. Let's look at the context, shall we?

He proceeds to explain to them in verses 34-43 what He meant by telling them that they will be 'free' if they continue in His Word. If they know the truth, the truth will make them free. If we look a little further we will see that the REASON He was speaking of this is because He was JUST identifying Himself, and their response was PRIDE. They are ABRAHAMS SEED! We have NEVER been in bondage to ANY man! Interesting that they immediately thought of Abraham as their 'father' when Jesus spoke in verses 21-30 of HIS Father, rather than thinking of God as their Father. Why did they do that? They do the deeds of THEIR father, who according to Jesus is NOT Abraham! We see the core of WHY Jesus said that in verses 42-43. Let's take a look at those here!
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
So, the REAL reason that He told them that their father was the devil is because they DID NOT BELIEVE that He was who He said He was. They DID NOT LOVE HIM. He said something SO VITAL, and you don't hear it! Why? "because YOU cannot HEAR my WORD". Throughout the discourse of this conversation Jesus gives us several very valid points in identifying Him.

I am from above. (v.23)
I am not of this world. (v.23)
I am who I said I was from the beginning. (v. 25)
I speak to the world those things that I have heard from Him who is True. (v. 26)(John notes that the Jews didn't know He was talking about the Father)
I do nothing of myself, but what the Father has taught me. (v.28)
I always do those things which please the Father. (v. 29)
I speak the things which I have heard from my Father. (v. 38)
I tell the truth which I have heard from God. (v.40)
I proceeded forth and came from God. (v.42)
I did not come of myself, but HE sent me. (v43)

Then He points out that they didn't understand a Word He just said, because they CANNOT HEAR. They did not have the Spirit, therfore they couldn't hear His Word. Just as it is today. IF you do not have His Spirit, you cannot hear His Word.

Jesus then goes out on a limb in verse 46 and asks them to show them where He has sinned. Their response? They called him a devil and a Samaritan! NAME CALLING is nothing new!

He responded that He did not have a devil but that He HONORS HIS FATHER. In verse 50 He makes it even more clear for us! "I DO NOT SEEK MY OWN GLORY"....WHY? Because there is ONE that SEEKS and JUDGES! NOW, you must realize that if Christ is NOT THAT ONE, since He just said He wasn't the one who is seeking, then WHO IS THAT ONE?

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,

Before Abraham was, I am.

NOW, before you get too exited. Read that portion in it's original, and stop trying to put stuff in there that doesn't belong in there.

"prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi!"

before-Abraham-came into existence-I-exist.

So, before Abraham existed, He did, which we already know from John 1:1. What happened next?

They wanted to stone Him, but He got away!

What do you think is the reason that they wanted to stone Him?

You think it is because by saying 'I AM' it offended them, because that is what they called God? No way. He had already said it once at this point in the conversation. This was the SECOND time that He had said it.

Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

OOOOOO!!!! He said 'I am'!!! Look out.

Who did He say that He was? Who is He saying you must believe that He is? See verse 25 for the 'I am' that He is referring to. "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning".

THAT is who He is. Who He has said He was from the BEGINNING.

Who did He say that He was in the beginning?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The Son of God.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Major B:
When Christ said, "this is my body," and "this is my blood," He can ONLY have meant it representationally, since his body was holding the bread as He spoke, and the fingers holding the cup had His REAL blood flowing through them.

Yes and since we know that an axe in water will only lie at the bottom till the cows come home then Elisha must have figuratively made it float to the surface with a stick. And when Jesus said he could make men out of the stones he was only figuratively speaking. Since this is not possible you know. And Mary could not have been a virgin. The red sea could not have parted, the etc. etc.

No. I think I will trust Jesus the Son of God when he says this is my body and this is my blood. Especially since one year almost to the day he told the people, after multiplying the loaves and fish, UNLESS YOU EAT THE FLESH OF SON OF MAN AND DRINK HIS BLOOD YOU SHALL NOT HAVE LIFE WITHIN YOU. (see v. 6.4). Now do you supposed the Apostles might have thought at the last supper, "gee he said something like this a year ago"... "my flesh is TRUE FOOD and my blood is TRUE DRINK". A symbol? He gave them lots of forshadowings and symbols in the OT. In the new he gave them salvation. Is the lord's supper symbolic. Yes it is. But it is more. The symbol becomes the sacrifice for all eternity to bring grace to us all, representing what happened on calvary and making it present to dya.

God bless.

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Major B:
When Christ said, "this is my body," and "this is my blood," He can ONLY have meant it representationally, since his body was holding the bread as He spoke, and the fingers holding the cup had His REAL blood flowing through them.

Imagine that, a miracle Christ cannot perform! I can assure you that the God Catholics believe in has no such limitation!

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Singer:
So right, MajorB.

That's why I asked previously why those Catholics (?) who were partaking in the
emblems that Jesus offered didn't just chew on his arm and drink the blood that
spilled from his wounds. They'd have had one last chance to catch a little more
blood as he hung on the cross and bled and they didn't do THAT .

Maybe that's why his body disappeared from the tomb .................
THE CATHOLICS ATE IT !!!

(That could explain their exclusive theory of "Christ in Us")

Getting your HBO Comedy Special all lined up there, Singer? You go knock 'em dead, kiddo! Nothing like a little Christian Comedy to top off a Sunday evening.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:


Yes, Kelly, we're being condemned for praying dilligently and expecting answers.
DHK, why would you suggest that Kelly not study the bible and pray to God for guidance?

I encouragd her to study her Bible. My concluding statement to her was to "rethink who Jesus is." I would hope that she would do that through a study of the Word of God. But I do not encourage anyone to pray to a false god. Do you encourage Hindus to pray to their idols??

[QUOTEReferencing your verse in John 8:44, you'll see that verse 42 says "If God were your Father, you would love me".[/QUOTE]
That is precisely the point. Jesus was fully man and fully God at the same time. He at no time gave up His Divinity. Thus Jesus says, If God was really your Father you would love me (for I am the same person). It was another claim to His deity.

That is the telltale sign of who a person's Father is....who they pray to.

You got me there. The Jews did not love Jesus. Jesus pointed out that they did not love the Father. Had they loved the Father, they would have had love for Him also, but they did not. When they prayed, their prayers were selfish, exalting themselves instead of God (Mat. 6:5-7). They prayed to their father the devil (John 8:44), for they really did not know the Father in Heaven.

Kelly loves Jesus so that would make her Father...God. Just because she does not make the connection of Jesus/God does not mean she's of the devil. She'd have to do things alot different than she is to be called a servant of satan.

That's quite a judgement call from one person about another person, having never seen her or met her. "The heart is deceitful above all things and desparately wicked, who can know it? (Jer.17:9).
How is a person saved? By believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. He is not Lord if He is not God. He is not God if He is not the one and only God of all creation. Only God can save. Only God can forgive. There is only One Saviour in all this universe, and according to Isaiah 43:10,11 His name is JEHOVAH. There was no God formed before Him, and there was and never will be any god formed after Him. The Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Jesus of the New Testament. The one is not a manifestation or replacement of the other. They are the same God: God the Father and God the Word.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
If you do not know who "the Lord Jesus Christ" is, how can you be saved?? You cannot.
If I describe Buddha to you, then name him Jesus Christ, tell you to believe on Him, will that bring you eternal life. A "Bhuddist Christ" will not save you. Will the "Muslim" version of Christ save you? Will the J.W. version of Christ you? Will the SDA version of Christ savee you? Absolutely not!! If Christ is not God; He is not Christ, and has no power to save at all.

It's not whether we believe Jesus is God or not that determines our Christianity.

Your absolutely wrong. If Jesus Christ is not God, then you don't have salvation; you don't have Christ; and you are not a Christian.

It's whether we believe Jesus rose from the dead, was the Son of God, etc.

Why couldn't Buddha rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Mohammed rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Confucius rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Ellen G. White rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Joseph Smith rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Charles Taze Russell rise from the dead?
Why? Why? Why?
Jesus rose from the dead because He was God. Because He IS God--the one and only Most High God.
It is his tomb alone that remains empty. He is Lord of lords and King of kings--Lord God Almighty!

I think we're making a bigger issue out of it than Jesus did.

We don't make a big enough issue about this.
"If any man glory, let him glory in the LORD!!"

[QUOTERemember....
The Gospel (Good News) is the life , death and ressurrection of Jesus.[/QUOTE]
As long as you got the right Jesus--the one and only Most High God. If He is not God, He is not Jesus, and you might as well be worshipping a Hindu goddess.

It is not...........that Jesus is God !

Oh, but it is that Jesus is God. It is all about that Jesus is God. If He is not God; He is not Jesus Christ, and has no power to save.

Rom.1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
--The gospel of Christ is the power of God, because Christ is God.

We're not here to condemn people for not believing Jesus is God; our motive for preaching should be in line with spreading the news of eternal life through believing that Jesus was our savior (whoever He is

That's pretty good Singer.
So you can believe Jesus is anybody you want "whoever he is" and as long you believe that that "whoever he is" Jesus will be your saviour, you can be saved.

So pick and choose:
A hippie Jesus,
A rebel Jesus,
A muslim Jesus,
An effeminate Jesus,
A J.W. Jesus (Michael)
An occult Jesus
An "Anti-Jesus" (antichrist)
An "Sung Myung Moon" Jesus. (He claims divinity)

It doesn't matter whoever He is Singer. That is what you said. Which Jesus is the author of your salvation? Doesn't the teaching of the Bible matter to you?
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Throughout the discourse of this conversation Jesus gives us several very valid points in identifying Him.

I am from above. (v.23)
I am not of this world. (v.23)
I am who I said I was from the beginning. (v. 25)
I speak to the world those things that I have heard from Him who is True. (v. 26)(John notes that the Jews didn't know He was talking about the Father)
I do nothing of myself, but what the Father has taught me. (v.28)
I always do those things which please the Father. (v. 29)
I speak the things which I have heard from my Father. (v. 38)
I tell the truth which I have heard from God. (v.40)
I proceeded forth and came from God. (v.42)
I did not come of myself, but HE sent me. (v43)

If understood correctly these statements all point toward the deity of Christ. But you are right on one thing. Those who do not have the Spirit cannot hear. Thus it seems apparent that you give the very reason why you do not understand these things.

Then He points out that they didn't understand a Word He just said, because they CANNOT HEAR. They did not have the Spirit, therfore they couldn't hear His Word. Just as it is today. IF you do not have His Spirit, you cannot hear His Word.

I agree.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,

Before Abraham was, I am.

NOW, before you get too exited. Read that portion in it's original, and stop trying to put stuff in there that doesn't belong in there.

"prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi!"

before-Abraham-came into existence-I-exist.

So, before Abraham existed, He did, which we already know from John 1:1. What happened next?

They wanted to stone Him, but He got away!

What do you think is the reason that they wanted to stone Him?

You think it is because by saying 'I AM' it offended them, because that is what they called God? No way. He had already said it once at this point in the conversation. This was the SECOND time that He had said it.

Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

OOOOOO!!!! He said 'I am'!!! Look out.

Who did He say that He was? Who is He saying you must believe that He is? See verse 25 for the 'I am' that He is referring to. "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning".

THAT is who He is. Who He has said He was from the BEGINNING.

Who did He say that He was in the beginning?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The Son of God.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

"The Son of God" It is too bad you don't understand that term. It is a term particularly used by John to refer to the deity of Christ. Whenever John referred to Christ as the Son of God, as opposed to let's say the Son of Man, he was referring to Christ as God. And yes, John 8:58 is a claim of Deity made by Christ and the Jews recognized it as such. He, in their language, quoted the name that Jehovah gave to Moses. "I am," or more completely "I am that I am." The Jews knew full well what he meant, and picked up stones to stone him. They did the same thing in John 10, when Jesus said "I and my father are one," and then accused him of blasphemy because, they claimed, he was making himself equal to God. He was claiming to be God, both here in John 8, and there in John 10. And the Jews knew this very well. They were ready to stone Him because of it.
DHK

 

[Singer]

DHK,

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
If you do not know who "the Lord Jesus Christ" is, how can you
be saved?? You cannot. If I describe Buddha to you, then name him Jesus
Christ, tell you to believe on Him, will that bring you eternal life. A "Bhuddist Christ" will not save you. Will the "Muslim" version of Christ save you? Will the J.W. version
of Christ you? Will the SDA version of Christ savee you? Absolutely not!!
If Christ is not God; He is not Christ, and has no power to save at all.

I might add to this list....The 2x2 God...which I grew up learning of in my KJV
bible given to me by those followers (my parents). As for whether they, or any member
of that sect considered Jesus to be God is not known to me. The Trinity was talked down;
I do know that, but those people DO pray to God the Creator of Heaven and Earth and they
DO acknowledge Jesus as the savior sent from God.

When we are asked to believe, What is it that we are expected to actually believe
according to scripture. I know you and others say it's important to believe that Jesus
is God. Let's conclude that the bible is not clear on that point.

John 4:42
"And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because
of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is
indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."

Wasn't the OT full of prophesies that pointed to a Savior which would be
revealed to the world? This verse in John shows that people considered the
Savior as the one sent from God.

Here's another example and right from the lips of Jesus:
John 6:29
"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God,
that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Jesus was suggesting that we believe on Who? .......Answer: "him whom he hath sent".!!
Who is the "him" and who is the "he" that sent.?
The "him" is Jesus of course and the "he" is God. Jesus himself allowed for a
distinctive separation of the two. In other verses, Jesus said things such as
"The Father and I are one" and "If you have seen me you have seen the Father".

But............what is it that we are expected to believe that will lead to salvation?
It is not evident that Jesus hinges our salvation on whether we believe that
He is the Father or not for he himself said that the work of God is that
"ye believe on him whom he hath sent".

Why couldn't Buddha rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Mohammed rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Confucius rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Ellen G. White rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Joseph Smith rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Charles Taze Russell rise from the dead?
Why? Why? Why?

The answer to all the "WHY's" , DHK is because none of them were sent
from God. None of them were the object of the OT prophesies. None of
them were the ones hanging on the cross and none of them are the biblical
Christ. None of them were sent from God to die in our place for the
forgiveness of sins. The SDA does not claim that any of them did. They,
and my 2x2 piers, believe that Jesus was sent from God to be the Christ;
the Savior to "whosoever believes in Him". Jesus himself said, "Whosoever
believes in Me". He did not say "Whosoever believes that I am He ".

We don't make a big enough issue about this.
"If any man glory, let him glory in the LORD!!"

Would it be wrong to glory in Jesus then?


Look at Peter's words in :
John 6:69
" And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."
........and after much discussion, Jesus answered with :
John 8:24
" I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if
ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins."

God does not automatically save without a Savior. His intent was such that the whole
OT which is fulfilled in the NT is centered on the fact that we have a Savior. That is
what our eternal life depends on (Having a Savior). The crux of the bible is not that
Jesus is God, but that we have a Savior, the man Jesus Christ, whether He be God or
whether he be the Son. Let God harbor the mysteries of that....we are only expected to
believe as Jesus said.....that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:

Let's conclude that the bible is not clear on that point.

The Bible is quite clear on this point as we will hopefully see in a moment.

John 4:42
"And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because
of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is
indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."

Wasn't the OT full of prophesies that pointed to a Savior which would be
revealed to the world? This verse in John shows that people considered the
Savior as the one sent from God.

The entire Jewish world, and those acquainted with the Old Testament Scriptures, such as the Samaritans, were in a state of preparedness. They were expecting a Messiah to come. "He came to His own, but his own received Him not." (John 1:11). They did not receive the Messiah at that time because they did not recognize a suffering Messiah according to the Scriptures. They were looking for the Messiah to come and set up His Kingdom. "Will thou at this time set up thy Kingdom?" thy asked. They expected him to come in the power of his holy angels and take the Davidic Throne as promised in the Old Testament. They knew from the Old Testament Scriptures that that One to come and sit on that throne and rule the Kingdom from that throne, would be their Messiah, would be Messiah, i.e. God. The very term "Son of God" to the Jew denoted deity. Consider this conversation which is repeated in the other gospels as well:

Luke 23:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.

Are you the Son of God? What were they asking Him? Are you deity? Are you the Messiah? They were looking for their King--the Lord of lords. This is why they accused of him blaphemy--the accusation that sent Him to the cross. "What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth." Check the other gospels. They were accusing Him of blasphemy--that He being a man was claiming to be God.

Here's another example and right from the lips of Jesus:
John 6:29
"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God,
that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Jesus was suggesting that we believe on Who? .......Answer: "him whom he hath sent".!!
Who is the "him" and who is the "he" that sent.?
The "him" is Jesus of course and the "he" is God. Jesus himself allowed for a
distinctive separation of the two. In other verses, Jesus said things such as
"The Father and I are one" and "If you have seen me you have seen the Father".

A wrong interpretation Singer. These were Jews Singer. They were expecting a Messiah to come. What did Andrew say to Simon. Come see. Is not this the Messiah?

John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

What about Nathaneal's view of Christ
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

The king of Israel, the Messiah, would be none other than God come in the flesh. That's who they were expecting. But not a suffering Messiah, rather one who would come to set up His Kingdom on earth. That is why the term "Son of God" was used. That is why the term "the one whom God has sent" was used. The Messiah was sent to set up His kingdom on earth. The common Jew did not recognize this Messiah.

But............what is it that we are expected to believe that will lead to salvation?
It is not evident that Jesus hinges our salvation on whether we believe that
He is the Father or not for he himself said that the work of God is that
"ye believe on him whom he hath sent".

He sent the Messiah. He sent the Word incarnate. He sent the only begotten Son. What did John say:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is what John saw: The Word who was made flesh. God come in the flesh. We beheld his glory, he said. It was the glory of God that he saw, for He saw Jesus Christ, and in seeing Him, He knew that He was seeing God. It was God, and only God that was full of grace and truth.

Why couldn't Buddha rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Mohammed rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Confucius rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Ellen G. White rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Joseph Smith rise from the dead?
Why couldn't Charles Taze Russell rise from the dead?
Why? Why? Why?

The answer to all the "WHY's" , DHK is because none of them were sent
from God. None of them were the object of the OT prophesies. None of
them were the ones hanging on the cross and none of them are the biblical
Christ. None of them were sent from God to die in our place for the
forgiveness of sins. The SDA does not claim that any of them did. They,
and my 2x2 piers, believe that Jesus was sent from God to be the Christ;
the Savior to "whosoever believes in Him". Jesus himself said, "Whosoever
believes in Me". He did not say "Whosoever believes that I am He ".

Only God has the power to rise from the dead. Study 1Cor.15. The very heart of the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Without the resurrection there is no gospel. The resurrection is proof of his deity. Without the resurrection Christ is just another man. Any man therefore could die for your sins. These other prophets, religious leaders, etc. (false prophets) were mere mortals (agents of Satan sent to lead people astray from the truth of God).
As for their claims. Sun Myung Moon does claim to Jesus Christ incarnate. Mohammed does claim to be the last and only true prophet. Many of these claim that without their intercession for mankind there is no salvation. The death of Christ does not matter for salvation. It is their intervention on behalf of God that matters. You need to look at things in their way of thinking. Salvation in most of those religions is through those very leaders, and not through Jesus Christ. Without those particular there would be no salvation (in the eyes of the followers of those religions).

]We don't make a big enough issue about this.
"If any man glory, let him glory in the LORD!!"

Would it be wrong to glory in Jesus then?

Only if you have the right Jesus. Only if Jesus is God.

Look at Peter's words in :
John 6:69
" And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."
........and after much discussion, Jesus answered with :
John 8:24
" I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if
ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins."

First you have the Messianic declaration of Peter that Christ is deity. Second you have the admission of Christ that if you don't believe that Christ is God you will die in your sins. It couldn't be more clear.

God does not automatically save without a Savior. His intent was such that the whole
OT which is fulfilled in the NT is centered on the fact that we have a Savior. That is
what our eternal life depends on (Having a Savior). The crux of the bible is not that
Jesus is God, but that we have a Savior, the man Jesus Christ, whether He be God or
whether he be the Son. Let God harbor the mysteries of that....we are only expected to
believe as Jesus said.....that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Come on Singer, THINK. Whom did God send?! He surely did not send the devil to believe on. He sent the Word incarnate to believe on as John testified in John 1:14, and as Christ testified in many other places (John 10:30; John 8:58), and as the Apostles also testified of Him.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The crux of the matter IS that Jesus is God, and that He alone can save.

Isa.43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

There is no Saviour apart from this God described in the Old Testament who happens to be Christ, but here described as Jehovah. Christ is God.
DHK

[ July 07, 2003, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

DHK,

How do YOU know that YOU have the 'right' Jesus?

(as if there is more than one).....

SHEESH

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
DHK,

How do YOU know that YOU have the 'right' Jesus?

(as if there is more than one).....

SHEESH

It is a common name 3AM. The barber down the street has the name of Jesus. He comes from Mexico. Is he the one that is your Saviour??
How do you know? He also is a man. The Jesus that I believe in is God. There are many Jesus' But there is only one God--the Lord Jesus Christ.
DHK

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
DHK,

How do YOU know that YOU have the 'right' Jesus?

(as if there is more than one).....

SHEESH

I am glad I started all this. Common guys, you Prots all agree. It's dem Catherlics dat ya gotta make alliances agin. After all, according to Bob Ryan, Trinityis non-essential doctrine.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
DHK,

How do YOU know that YOU have the 'right' Jesus?

(as if there is more than one).....

SHEESH

It is a common name 3AM. The barber down the street has the name of Jesus. He comes from Mexico. Is he the one that is your Saviour??
How do you know? He also is a man. The Jesus that I believe in is God. There are many Jesus' But there is only one God--the Lord Jesus Christ.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Do you believe in the trinity or the oneness doctrine?

The name 'jesus' isn't even the Son of God's name! 'Jesus' is a form of the name 'Zeus'.

The name of the Son of God is Yeshua.

That is JOSHUA in English.

God Bless,
Kelly