The Kingdom postponed .....or...transferred?

[percho]

I have a few thoughts and questions.

Now it is evident that our Lord came from Judah, and Moses said nothing about that tribe concerning priests. HCSB Heb 7:14
He came to His own, [fn] and His own people [fn] did not receive Him. HCSB John 1:11 His own people, the house of Judah, the Jews.
see footnotes The same Gk adjective is used twice in this verse: the first refers to all that Jesus owned as Creator (to His own); the second refers to the Jews (His own people). ---- My note of understanding is he came into his own as in Hebrews 1:1,2 made through him, as in for him, being Son, appointed heir of all things.

The house of Israel had rejected God many years before and God had scattered them among the Gentiles. Even the Jews had been scattered, there were Jews scattered all among the nations yet people knew who they were. They had synagogue's in those nations and adhered to the Jewish law. Kept the Sabbath. Can the works of the law make them righteous? Is there one righteous? Someone referred to Deut 32.

Deut 32:26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:

Has that ever been true of the Jews, the house of Judah? Is it true today? How do we remember them, how do we know who they are?

Who did God scatter among the nations and no one knows who they are? Did they cast away the law of God and adopt their own and or the laws of the nations where they were scattered. Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts. ---- Is that because they were not the things that God established but what she adopted?

Will any among her be made righteous by anything of which they might think or do?

Or will God call out of the nations and declare the one called, righteous by the blood of Christ, and by that, show to all mankind that all is according to mercy?

Why are they called?

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:



Show to whom? The ones being ruled over?
Isa 2:2-5 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

 

[Van]

I am not sure what the point of your post #20 was. If you cannot grasp that the "you" in Matthew 21:43 refers to those who had rejected Christ, I doubt I could explain it. As I said, just read verse 45.

 

[Grasshopper]

Dan. 2:44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

The phrase "those kings" , in context, refers to the Roman Empire.

 

[Van]

."The Church has been grafted into “All Israel.” (Romans 11:17-23)

Gentiles are heirs to Abraham’s Covenant (Gal 3:8–9).

The Old Testament does have prophecies of the Church age (Jer 31:31–34; ).

God’s main purpose in history is Christ and His Elect children of God. (1 Peter 2:9-10)

Everyone ever saved is saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone (Rom 4).

Christ offers the kingdom of God to all mankind but only those whose faith God credits as righteousness are transferred spiritually into that kingdom. (Col. 1:13)

The Church started at Pentecost, and thus no “Church” as such in the Old Testament/Covenant.

The Mosaic Law is fulfilled with the sacrifice of Christ and replaced with the New Covenant; New Covenant believers are under the Law of Christ (1 Cor 9:21).

The Holy Spirit worked differently in the Old Covenant than in the New (the Spirit now indwells believers)."

This reworked and heavily revised presentation was taken in part from
Theopedia

 

[Iconoclast]

It was the faith of a Gentile that spurred these words from The Prophet:

8 And the centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I also am a man under authority, having under myself soldiers: and I say to this one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 And when Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And the servant was healed in that hour. Mt 8

The 'sons of the kingdom' entails more than just the leadership of that day and 'the many that come from the east and the west to recline with the fathers' is in reference to the Gentiles, their coming in foretold many times:

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4

22 And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins. Mark 2

God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem.... Gen 9:27

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:34

Thanks for posting these wonderful verses Kyred...Many try and postpone what has already began....

 

[kyredneck]

Thanks for posting these wonderful verses Kyred...

.....won't change anyone's mind though, in case you ain't figgered that out yet; Israel worshipping must be a powerful addiction.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Jeremiah 9:25-26. '"Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "that I will punish all who are circumcised with the uncircumcised- Egypt, Judah, Edom, the people of Ammon, Moab, and all who are in the farthest corners, who dwell in the wilderness. For all those nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."'

There is only one people of God today- those who are circumcised in heart; that is, believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.

 

[Iconoclast]

.....won't change anyone's mind though, in case you ain't figgered that out yet; Israel worshipping must be a powerful addiction.

If someone is searching for truth,God can use any or all of those verses to effect a change.
Many times the people are not searching but rather in a defensive posture.
They do not look because they have been taught that they have the truth already, so to question it is considered a lack of faith.
The objection that suggests.....oh...you are spiritualizing the passage causes most truth to be missed.

 

[HankD]

If someone is searching for truth,God can use any or all of those verses to effect a change.
Many times the people are not searching but rather in a defensive posture.
They do not look because they have been taught that they have the truth already, so to question it is considered a lack of faith.
The objection that suggests.....oh...you are spiritualizing the passage causes most truth to be missed.

Speak for thyself John Alden?

HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
The question is : What is the ID of "the nation bringing forth the fruits thereof".

The assumption seems to be the Gentile nations But it may very well be another generation of Hebrews since those who saw and heard Him in the flesh rejected Him.

HankD

It does not say...nations...as in Norway, Sweden, or China.....it says given to" a nation"
Peter identifies this "holy nation"......as the New Exodus....the church;


9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy

clearly the church spoken of by Hosea

 

[HankD]

It does not say...nations...as in Norway, Sweden, or China.....it says given to" a nation"
Peter identifies this "holy nation"......as the New Exodus....the church;


9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy

clearly the church spoken of by Hosea

Yes so it seems, but still maybe not as we have been grafted in with the "unwild" tree (Redeemed Israel IMO) awaiting its re-graft. OK it's a stretch

HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes so it seems, but still maybe not as we have been grafted in with the "unwild" tree (Redeemed Israel IMO) awaiting its re-graft. OK it's a stretch

HankD

When people avoid or even explain away this passage and the one in Hosea.....they concede the point.

 

[Van]

"The Church has been grafted into “All Israel.” (Romans 11:17-23)
Gentiles are heirs to Abraham’s Covenant (Gal 3:8–9).
The Old Testament does have prophecies of the Church age (Jer 31:31–34; ).
God’s main purpose in history is Christ and His Elect children of God. (1 Peter 2:9-10)
Everyone ever saved is saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone (Rom 4).
Christ offers the kingdom of God to all mankind but only those whose faith God credits as righteousness are transferred spiritually into that kingdom. (Col. 1:13)
The Church started at Pentecost, and thus no “Church” as such in the Old Testament/Covenant.
The Mosaic Law is fulfilled with the sacrifice of Christ and replaced with the New Covenant; New Covenant believers are under the Law of Christ (1 Cor 9:21).
The Holy Spirit worked differently in the Old Covenant than in the New (the Spirit now indwells believers)."

This reworked and heavily revised presentation was taken in part from
Theopedia

The promises to "All Israel" were not transferred to the "Church" rather the "Church" has been grafted into "All Israel" and thus we are a chosen people, a holy nation.

 

[HankD]

When people avoid or even explain away this passage and the one in Hosea.....they concede the point.

No, debate rules do not say that.
It takes my affirmation of concession.

I do not concede the point.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

In His book- The End Times Made Simple....Sam Waldron writes on pg 70-

Some have said that the Kingdom was postponed because the Jews rejected their Messiah.
Such language entangles itself in questions about the sovereignty of God and the necessity of the work of Christ.
It also misses the fact that God's reaction to the unbelief of the Jewish nation is not to postpone the Kingdom, but to transfer the Kingdom.
Mt21:43 declares;
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Do you agree with this plain declaration of truth?

Use scripture in your reply...

The Kingdom was rejected by Israel at that time, as most rejected Yeshua as Messiah, so God turned to dealing with gentiles, but will still bring Iisrael the Kingdom when Jesus returns again!

 

[Iconoclast]

The Kingdom was rejected by Israel at that time, as most rejected Yeshua as Messiah, so God turned to dealing with gentiles, but will still bring Iisrael the Kingdom when Jesus returns again!

Your response in not dealing with the statement you quoted from Pastor Waldron....your answer is totally vague. Clarify if you could by dealing directly with the quote.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, debate rules do not say that.
It takes my affirmation of concession.

I do not concede the point.

HankD

That's fine....My Friend William Cox (pg78)- Biblical studies on final things-offers this concerning Isa59:20
The futurist errs on this quotation from Isaiah by making it apply to Jesus second coming.
Paul refers to the earthly ministry of Jesus.
A deliverer DID come to Zionsville and with as many as received Him He made a new covenant...
Isa59:21,rom11:27, jer3131 Mt 26:28 hebrew 10:16

 

[Iconoclast]

That's fine....My Friend William Cox (pg78)- Biblical studies on final things-offers this concerning Isa59:20
The futurist errs on this quotation from Isaiah by making it apply to Jesus second coming.
Paul refers to the earthly ministry of Jesus.
A deliverer DID come to Zion and with as many as received Him He made a new covenant...
Isa59:21,rom11:27, jer3131 Mt 26:28 hebrew 10:16

Pt.2
Pg.80
In order to get the church and the present kingdom out of the way,the futurist arbitrarily divides books of the Bible into "the church age"(an expression not found in the Bible) and messianic age.
Jesus speaks so much about the present Kingdom in the first half of Matthew that they cannot explain it away; therefore,they say (very arbitrarily)
that Mt 13 begins a "mystery" form of the Kingdom.
Mt.11:12,13:24,lk16:16 col1:13.....the Kingdom is to be perfected at his second coming,He definitely established a present Kingdom on earth