The KJV: the word of God or the very wordS of God?

My name isn't buddy and I haven't used any chronological arguments that I am aware of.

The only sound basis for doctrine, belief, or practice is God's Word and facts evaluated by biblical principles. The Bible doesn't say one word about the KJV or a word for word perfect Bible.

The Bible says God's Word is perfect. It doesn't say nor imply that men will perfectly preserve or create in translations a perfect set of words like those God inspired originally.

 

One of the books my arguments come from is the Bible.

It says that God directly inspired specially qualified men to write His words. The last of those was the Apostle John.

Everything since, the copies and translations, have been the works of men. Certainly under God's providence but not His direct control.

If there were a single perfect text preserved by a direct divine act of God then it would be traceable back to the originals. If a perfect text was somehow recreated then it should have been accompanied by miracles performed by its writers the way the originals were.

 

One of the books my arguments come from is the Bible.

It says that God directly inspired specially qualified men to write His words. The last of those was the Apostle John.

Everything since, the copies and translations, have been the works of men. Certainly under God's providence but not His direct control.

If there were a single perfect text preserved by a direct divine act of God then it would be traceable back to the originals. If a perfect text was somehow recreated then it should have been accompanied by miracles performed by its writers the way the originals were.

 

He gave you the link to the debate and which debate to listen to. Why don't you go and listen yourself? Then if he didn't tell you the truth you would know what he really said.

In my business you cannot take the word of a lot of people because they may simply forget what they said.

Listen to his debate and hear it yourself.

 

KJV Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Please give the chapter and verse from the KJV in the Law (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) of a jot or tittle.

The 1611 KJV has no jots and tittles. These are parts of the Hebrew/Aramaic alphabet.

HankD

 

AV1611Jim: It is incomprehensible to me that one can say God does not speak in English, or French or even Cantonese for that matter. Be they in Spanish, Greek OR Hebrew, they are still God's words. NO MAN could come up with those words of truth on his own. Or for that matter, with the help of 4 dozen buddies!

It's just as incomprehensible to believe God retired in 1611 and didn/t doesn/t speak today, in today's English, Spanish, Slobbovian, etc.

 

AV1611Jim: I get SOOOO tired of this constant appeal to non-existant "originals". Once more...IF the "originals" is your standard then you HAVE NO standard.

But sometimes you act as if they NEVER existed. Some time, somewhere, there was a very first copy of every passage in the Bible. While there doesn't hafta be a LAST, there HAD to be a FIRST. The KJV wasn't even the first ENGLISH Bible, let alone the ORIGINAL COPY OF THE SCRIPTURES.

Once again...I'll type slowly...IF THE ORIGINALS HAD NEVER EXISTED, WE'D HAVE NO SCRIPTURES!

 

Plain ol' Ralph: He sure does, and I Love the way He speaks thru the Holy Bible and doesn't get confused over which words He chose and think it should have been better said when all the while He knew exactly what He meant all along.

I do, too. That's why I don't believe the KJVO myth. Your key phrase is, "He SPEAKS" He didn't retire in 1611. He had Good News for 7th century English speakers(Caedmon). He had Good News for 14th century English speakers(Wycliffe) He had Good News for 17th century English speakers(Geneva Bible, AV 1611, & all the English-language Bibles before that time) and He has Good News for modern English speakers(NASV, NKJV, NIV, other valid MVs, and all the valid English-language Bibles that came before)!

 

Plain ol' Ralph: No, sir, I ask a legitimate question, which you doge and then ad-homenim; the Truth remains, God uses the KJB and we laugh at all others, especially when simple logic exposes the mv promoters, and congratulators, fallacies.

The Truth remains, God uses EVERY legitimate Bible translation in every language, while simple history shows us that the govt. and church officials of 17th C. England used their power to suppress earlier BVs in use by the common Brit & replace them with the AV. That's the equivalent to the U.S. govt. labeling the KJV contraband & replacing it with the NIV.

 

Broken Clay: The King James Bible is the very word(s) of God down to the last "jot and tittle". If He said that neither one jot or tittle of His Word shall pass away then certainly that means He can preserve His Word perfectly (word for word) for all eternity even in the english translation.

No, it's NOT...The KJV is an ENGLISH TRANSLATION of God's word from older languages, just as the Masoretic text is a translation from Proto-Hebrew. The men who ORIGINALLY wrote God's words as he moved them or commanded them to write, as He did Jeremiah, Daniel, & John , to name a few, wrote in THEIR languages.

Now, where's the EXCLUSIVITY of the KJV that makes it the SOLE representative of God's word in English? I'll tell you where it is...in the imaginations of the KJVOs. They are utterly lacking in any EVIDENCE to support their guesswork and tall tales.

 

Plain ol' Ralph: What one is only able to surmise by your logic is that no one is sure what is the Word of God and that no one can be sure, that is utter CONFUSION, you have no final authority in the matter and are leading others astray!!

No, it's the KJVO MYTH that is leading some astray, and YOU are a case in point. You believe a myth that has ABSOLUTELY NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT, and no other evidence for its validity. Telling people that the KJV is the ONLY valid English Bible translation is a BLATANT LIE, proven to be a lie by the mountain of plain, empirical evidence AGAINST it, as well as the utter lack of evidence FOR it.(I'm not accusing YOU of such misconduct, but you ARE living a lie if you really believe the nonsense of the KJVO myth.)

It's the KJVOs who have created their OWN straw man "final authority".

 

Plain ol' Ralph: Oh, C4K, if you mean did the translators originate the message, No, but the Lord did most assuredly inspire the compilation of the KJB to relate, finally, to the English speaking people the Mind of Christ.

C4K is the latest person here to have asked, "WHICH EDITION of the KJV is *THE* perfect one?"...but I see no direct answers.

And I see NOTHING that even begins to prove the EXCLUSIVITY of the KJV, that God inspired ONLY the AV men, and no others.

 

Broken Clay: Proof please with scripture David J. and ilk that any of the MV's are perfect, and if not why do you use a bible you don't believe is perfect. I personally believe mine is perfect. "But without faith it is impossible to please him..." Hebrews 11:6

Despite its PROVEN BOOBOOS, such as "Easter" in Acts 12:4, "slew and hanged" in Acts 5:30, and numerous other PROVEN goofs we've discussed in this forum? The KJV is no more perfect than is any other valid English translation. However, like those other versions, it's perfect for God's intended use. Human goofs or not, the KJV came out the way God willed, same as did all other valid versions.

I'm gonna quit posting awhile in this thread...I see an unbroken string of my posts & it's not my intention at all to ever be a "spammer".

 

RE: The testimony of the KJV Translators in the prologue:

Please give the exact quote where the KJV translators attributed to God "everything they produced" and that they were "UNDER His guidance".

And then (if and when you find it) ask yourself, does this include the Apocrypha?

HankD

 

I will not post the entire paragraph where you will find their comments Hank. But to narrow it down for you; read again the section titled The purpose of the Translators, with their number, furniture, care, &c.
In it you will find,
a) Their whole work was "under the Hand of God."
b)Their definition of The Scriptures, i.e. OT and NT with no mention of Apocrypha.

By the very fact they put the Apocrypha BETWEEN the Testaments demonstrates their view as to whether or not they thought of them as Scripture. Many translations and MSS they had available to them included the Apocrypha within the books of the OT. The AV Translators saw this as error and seperated those books OUT of the canon and put them BETWEEN the Testaments, as if to identify them as something completely seperate from the Bible. Just as we do today with other commentators' works.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Wallace asked him the same question several times. It's much the same thing we are asking the KJVO's and get the same answer. It's much like a cat chasing its tail--spins round and round and gets nowhere.

 

This IMO is simply an equivocation jim as we have gone over before.

The KJV men did not mention that the Apocrypha was non-canonical anywhere in their work labeled "The Holy Bible".

They formatted the Apocrypha with chapter and verse as they did the Old and New Testaments.

They included apocryphal readings in the section of the KJV for "authorised" daily Scripture readings without distinguishing them from Scripture.

They included apocryphal cross references in the margin along with Scripture cross references without distinguishing them from Scripture.

But the question remains unanswered:

Did God have His hand upon them and inspire them to translate and include these books from which the Church of Rome drew heretical teachings?

HankD

 

Also, for the KJVO myth of exclusivity to have even the tiniest amount of merit, there MUST be proof that God speaks to the English users in the KJV alone. There MUST be proof that God guided the AV translators alone, and guided ONLY those afterward who later revised the KJV. There's simply NO PROOF of any such exclusivity, so the KJV remains what it's always been...an ENGLISH TRANSLATION of God's words. Remember, the AV translators themselves remarked that the king's speech, even if translated into other languages, and not by translators of equal ability, was still the king's speech. Thus, the KJV is God's speech, but so are many other English versions.