The Knowledge of God

[convicted1]

In do not know.

I doubt anyone does.

That is beside the point. The point is that the Bible CLEARLY teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

How long before it precedes faith is ANOTHER discussion.

At this point you just need to cede that the Bible says it does.

Well Brother Luke, one of your heroes sure does not defend your belief on this very subject:

Charles Spurgeon recognized the folly of saying that the sinner must be regenerated before he can believe:

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." [Sermon entitled The Warrant of Faith].

Here's the link where I found it:
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/regenera.htm

 

[convicted1]

In do not know.

I doubt anyone does.

That is beside the point. The point is that the Bible CLEARLY teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

How long before it precedes faith is ANOTHER discussion.

At this point you just need to cede that the Bible says it does.

Au contraire, Brother Luke. You do not know, and yet defend it? I showed you in an earlier post that Jesus stated that unless you eat of His flesh, and drink of His blood, you have no life in you. You are brought to life via the blood. If you have the blood, you are saved, and regenerated.

 

[Luke2427]

Au contraire, Brother Luke. You do not know, and yet defend it? I showed you in an earlier post that Jesus stated that unless you eat of His flesh, and drink of His blood, you have no life in you. You are brought to life via the blood. If you have the blood, you are saved, and regenerated.

No Willis. I showed you what the Word of God says about it. It is your prerogative to ignore it if you wish.

But the Bible says that being born again precedes faith.

You did not even dispute the verses and the facts.

So accept it.

 

[Luke2427]

Well Brother Luke, one of your heroes sure does not defend your belief on this very subject:

Charles Spurgeon recognized the folly of saying that the sinner must be regenerated before he can believe:

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." [Sermon entitled The Warrant of Faith].

Here's the link where I found it:
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/regenera.htm

This is the most misused Spurgeon quote of all time.

I have often posted quotes of his that prove that he believed regeneration precedes faith.

But it does not matter that Spurgeon believed that regeneration precedes faith. The Bible teaches it as I have clearly shown you. And you have not even tried to deny it- which I am glad. You shouldn't.

Spurgeon said:

We must now pass on to show that WHEREVER IT [faith] EXISTS IT IS THE PROOF OF REGENERATION. There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul, and there never will be while the world standeth. It is so according to the text, and if we had no other testimony this one passage would be quite enough to prove it. "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God."

Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate.

 

[DHK]

In do not know.

I doubt anyone does.

That is beside the point. The point is that the Bible CLEARLY teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

How long before it precedes faith is ANOTHER discussion.

At this point you just need to cede that the Bible says it does.

That point cannot be ceded on a "just because you say so" basis.
It has no foundation in Scripture; is totally unbiblical.
Luke, we have had a total of five threads on this topic. I think most of them you have ignored.
My basic premise is: God does not give faith to the unregenerate or the unsaved. Faith is not a gift that God gives to the unsaved. God does not spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to those who are unregenerated/unsaved/the lost/the doomed/the condemned/the damned/etc. To say that God gives these ones His spiritual gifts and/or the fruit of the spirit is absurd. It is nowhere found in the Bible.

It only shows that if you (Calvin) teach a lie long enough repeat it often enough that people will blindly believe it without even giving it any thought. In five threads, no one ever proved me wrong in this. I don't believe you can either. Faith is not a gift that is given to unbelievers. God does not go against his nature nor His word.

 

[JesusFan]

I didn't purposely leave out any word. I type most of my posts using references and Scripture from memory. Either way the verse has an emphasis on hearing. Hearing what? Hearing the word of God.

Faith is confidence. It is confidence in the word of another. I have confidence in the word of a cab driver that he will take me where I ask him to take me (like the airport), and not to the landfill outside the city. I have faith, confidence in his words. I put my salvation in his hands. He will either deliver me safely to the airport in one piece or perhaps he will kidnap me and take me to another place of the city and dispose of me in some untimely matter. He said he would take me to the airport as I requested. I am putting my faith in his word. My physical salvation could be at stake here. The object of my faith in this case is the cab driver and his promise to me.

The object of my faith spiritually is Jesus Christ and his promises to me. He has promised me salvation. He is God and both God and God's promises are perfect and infallible. I don't have to worry about an untimely death or even a spiritual one. I know that if I put my trust in him he will give me eternal life. I will become a member of his family with all the rights and privileges thereto, meaning an heir of God and a joint heir with Jesus Christ.

Salvation is by faith. Sola fide.

Actually, salavation itself is a GIFT from God, purchased/made for our behalf by the Death of Jesus at the Cross, as the full atonement for our sins!

faith is the means by wgich we appropaite it from God, way to access it and have God credit it to our behalf...

ALL agree on this, its just you fail to see God MUST do a work in us before that stage, in order to have us able to receive Jesus by faith!

If this prior stage not done for us by God, message falls on 'deaf" ears!

 

[JesusFan]

That point cannot be ceded on a "just because you say so" basis.
It has no foundation in Scripture; is totally unbiblical.
Luke, we have had a total of five threads on this topic. I think most of them you have ignored.
My basic premise is: God does not give faith to the unregenerate or the unsaved. Faith is not a gift that God gives to the unsaved. God does not spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to those who are unregenerated/unsaved/the lost/the doomed/the condemned/the damned/etc. To say that God gives these ones His spiritual gifts and/or the fruit of the spirit is absurd. It is nowhere found in the Bible.

It only shows that if you (Calvin) teach a lie long enough repeat it often enough that people will blindly believe it without even giving it any thought. In five threads, no one ever proved me wrong in this. I don't believe you can either. Faith is not a gift that is given to unbelievers. God does not go against his nature nor His word.

So you would disagree against BOTH Cals/Arms that man IS depraived and dead to being able to respond in faith to Gospel!

Both would affirm that its not JUST the Gospel that saves us, its that FITST God has to "Grace allow" us "ears to hear" and than be able to respond in faith...

Call it "irresistable Grace" call it "Prevelient grace" It happens BEFORE the Gospel message!

 

[DHK]

So you would disagree against BOTH Cals/Arms that man IS depraived and dead to being able to respond in faith to Gospel!

We have gone through this merry-go-round before. What is "dead"? It is not lifeless or a spiritual lifeless corpse. It is separation from God. Adam was dead and continued to talk with God. Yes a person is able to respond to God. God gave the command: "Seek ye the Lord while he yet may be found." He doesn't give a command that cannot be obeyed.
Secondly, it is the Holy Spirit that opens the heart. He convicts the sinner of his sin. He prepares the soil.
Thirdly, what does the Bible say about faith. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It is not a gift of God. It comes by being convinced that the message of the word of God--the gospel. that Christ has personally paid the penalty for one's sin, is true. Based on hearing that message and receiving it by faith he can be saved. But he must hear it, and accept it by faith--the confidence that it is true and able to do what it says it will do. God doesn't give him the faith. He must have the faith that the message is true. Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

The Calvinist believes that God comes along with a hypodermic needle and injects faith in a person that enables him to believe. Total nonsense. Man does not believe with God's faith. Never does the Bible teach that.
The Calvinist believes that the Holy Spirit comes along and sprinkles pixie dust upon a person so that he is magically regenerated. The Bible does not teach this either. This is new age, esoteric, metaphysical, nonsense.

Both would affirm that its not JUST the Gospel that saves us, its that FITST God has to "Grace allow" us "ears to hear" and than be able to respond in faith...

Wrong. The grace is the grace that God provided at the cross. It is not the graces of the RCC provided through the sacraments or some other such thing. The only grace we know of comes through the Word of God where Christ is described to us--his death, burial, resurrection; his sufferings; atonement; what he did for us. That is the grace that we need to know about. What grace are you speaking about? Some metaphysical working that comes through baptism or confirmation? Nonsense. God works through the Word of God as the Holy Spirit uses it.

Call it "irresistable Grace" call it "Prevelient grace" It happens BEFORE the Gospel message!

Acts 7:51. Grace can be resisted.
People have sat under the sound of the gospel and resisted the Holy Spirit and and time again.
If it happens before the hearing of the Word of God, then it is paganism.
God works through his word.
1Pet.1:23 We are born again by the Word of God.

 

[JesusFan]

We have gone through this merry-go-round before. What is "dead"? It is not lifeless or a spiritual lifeless corpse. It is separation from God. Adam was dead and continued to talk with God. Yes a person is able to respond to God. God gave the command: "Seek ye the Lord while he yet may be found." He doesn't give a command that cannot be obeyed.

It will be obeyed by those whom He already foreknew and predestined to Eternal Life in Christ!

Secondly, it is the Holy Spirit that opens the heart. He convicts the sinner of his sin. He prepares the soil.

Per God Soverign Will and Good Pleasure, yes

Thirdly, what does the Bible say about faith. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It is not a gift of God. It comes by being convinced that the message of the word of God--the gospel. that Christ has personally paid the penalty for one's sin, is true. Based on hearing that message and receiving it by faith he can be saved. But he must hear it, and accept it by faith--the confidence that it is true and able to do what it says it will do. God doesn't give him the faith. He must have the faith that the message is true. Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Again, to those whom God has elected, yes it will produce the desired result of saving faith in jesus!

The Calvinist believes that God comes along with a hypodermic needle and injects faith in a person that enables him to believe. Total nonsense. Man does not believe with God's faith. Never does the Bible teach that.

Neither does ANY calvinist that I am aware of, at least none that are considered "spokesman" for it!

The Calvinist believes that the Holy Spirit comes along and sprinkles pixie dust upon a person so that he is magically regenerated. The Bible does not teach this either. This is new age, esoteric, metaphysical, nonsense.

Well, problem is that you do not see that salvation is of/from the Lord, start to finish!

Wrong. The grace is the grace that God provided at the cross. It is not the graces of the RCC provided through the sacraments or some other such thing. The only grace we know of comes through the Word of God where Christ is described to us--his death, burial, resurrection; his sufferings; atonement; what he did for us. That is the grace that we need to know about. What grace are you speaking about? Some metaphysical working that comes through baptism or confirmation? Nonsense. God works through the Word of God as the Holy Spirit uses it.

Not though ANY sacrament, but through a direct Act of Grace of God!

Acts 7:51. Grace can be resisted.

NOT the kind God sends forth in order to provide salvation unto His own!

People have sat under the sound of the gospel and resisted the Holy Spirit and and time again.

Those who were "dead" in their trespasses and sins?

If it happens before the hearing of the Word of God, then it is paganism.

God works through his word.
1Pet.1:23 We are born again by the Word of God.

Actually, by the Will of God see Apostle John chapter 1!

 

[Don]

Disregard.