The Lamb of God?

[Silverhair]

It's a good question.
The Lord Jesus was described as the Lamb of God before His crucifixion (John 1:29), but that may have been a prophetic word.
In Revelation 13:8, exegetes are divided as to whether 'from the foundation of the world' refers to our Lord or to when the names were written in the Book of Life. However, it is the 'Lamb's Book of Life (Revelation 21:27), so it is reasonable to suppose that He was the Lamb when it was written.
My considered opinion (after all of five minutes' thought!) is that He was always the Lamb of God in the mind of the Father, since He agreed in eternity to suffer and die for those the Father gave Him out of the world (Ephesians 1:4-10; Philippians 2:5-9; cf. Acts of the Apostles 15:18).

Come on Martin, how is it you and I agree on a theological view. But I do agree that Christ Jesus was always the Lamb of God in the Fathers mind, He came to be the propitiation for all those that would freely trust in His finished work on the cross. Rom 3:21-26, 1Jn 2:2

 

[Silverhair]

I think this is the best way I can express myself...

I am still trying to wrap my head around this, ”When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God.” Was He chosen to be the Lamb of God or chosen because He IS the Lamb of God? There are huge implications in regards to how you (or anyone) answers this. I vote for the latter and not the former.

For me I do not believe that there was a time when Christ Jesus did not know that He would go to the cross. When I view this from Gen 3:15 and looking forward I see that He will be the Lamb of God but when I look back from where we are now and anytime since the crucifixion then we say that He is the Lamb of God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

For me I do not believe that there was a time when Christ Jesus did not know that He would go to the cross. When I view this from Gen 3:15 and looking forward I see that He will be the Lamb of God but when I look back from where we are now and anytime since the crucifixion then we say that He is the Lamb of God.

Which is why I believe He came in the flesh because He IS the Lamb of God, not chosen individually to BE the Lamb of God. There are an infinite amount of miles betwixt those two statements.

 

[1689Dave]

Did Jesus choose to be the Lamb of God or has He always been the Lamb of God?

Jesus is God so it was forever that He is the lamb of God. Only God prepared a body for Him to sacrifice in time.

 

[37818]

He has always been the Lamb of God.

Do you understand that concept means some things. 1) That he as the Lamb of God would always have been someone other than God. ". . . of God." This would not be any problem, John 1:2. 2) That he was the Lamb of God prior to His incarnation. 3) Which would mean His incarnation was always unnecessary.

I am of the view He was always to be the Lamb of God. That He became the Lamb of God through His incarnation.

 

[37818]

. . . from the foundation of the world.

It would seem we disagee as to its meaning. I understand the phrase to mean an event or events in time. Luke 11:50-51, Hebrews 1:2.

 

[JonC]

It would seem we disagee as to its meaning. I understand the phrase to mean an event or events in time. Luke 11:50-51, Hebrews 1:2.

We do disagree on whether Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World or if that passage means a point in time.

We do not disagree about events or events in time.

John the Baptist could say "Behold the Lamb that takes away the sin of the World" because that was Christ's identity - not because Jesus had been Crucified (this was at the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry).

 

[robycop3]

I believe Jesus was ALWAYS the Lamb of God, that is, a sacrificial lamb. The animal sacrifices made since the time of Abel pointed to Him. I believe this was God's plan before He made the universe.

 

[37818]

. . . the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World . . . .

The phrase is used in Hebrews 9:25-26, ". . . Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. . . ."

That passage along with Luke 11:50-51 defines my understanding of "from the foundation of the world." That it is to mean an event or events in time. That phrase is only used 7 times in our New Testament. While "from" has been interpreted as if to mean "at," I must conclude that notion is not correct.

 

[JonC]

The phrase is used in Hebrews 9:25-26, ". . . Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. . . ."

That passage along with Luke 11:50-51 defines my understanding of "from the foundation of the world." That it is to mean an event or events in time. That phrase is only used 7 times in our New Testament. While "from" has been interpreted as if to mean "at," I must conclude that notion is not correct.

Yep. Offered once for all.

Do you believe John the Baotist was wrong to say "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World!"?

I know you don't because you have proven yourself to believe Scripture. We disagree, but much of this is talking past one another. I suspect we agree on how this issue works, just take the phrase differently.

The Sacrificial Lamb is the Sacrificial Lamb before the sacrifice is made. I do not believe redemption was reactionary, but rather God's eternal plan for His glory.

 

[37818]

Do you believe John the Baotist was wrong to say "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World!"?

No.

The Sacrificial Lamb is the Sacrificial Lamb before the sacrifice is made.

Yes.

I do not believe redemption was reactionary, but rather God's eternal plan for His glory.

I agree.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

This seems to hinge on a quite fundamental point of whether God possesses free will, or in what way he does. Would saying that Jesus has always been the Lamb of God not also be saying that God was predestined to create the universe and mankind?

Assuming the question is worth pursuing, perhaps it and its elements need to be better defined.

 

[JonC]

This seems to hinge on a quite fundamental point of whether God possesses free will, or in what way he does. Would saying that Jesus has always been the Lamb of God not also be saying that God was predestined to create the universe and mankind?

Assuming the question is worth pursuing, perhaps it and its elements need to be better defined.

I'd say Jesus being "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World" points to the purpose of Creation being the redemption of man to the glory of God.

It is not saying that God was predestined to create the World but rather that God created the World with a pre-determined plan.

 

[tyndale1946]

Which is why I believe He came in the flesh because He IS the Lamb of God, not chosen individually to BE the Lamb of God. There are an infinite amount of miles betwixt those two statements.

Willis... Revelation 5... Brother Glen

Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Btw... Taken in full, I couldn't break it up if I wanted to!

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I'd say Jesus being "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World" points to the purpose of Creation being the redemption of man to the glory of God.

It is not saying that God was predestined to create the World but rather that God created the World with a pre-determined plan.

Yes, I agree that's what it should mean.

But, for example, the term "always" is being bandied about without clarification.

Always is a long time, but how long?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Do you understand that concept means some things. 1) That he as the Lamb of God would always have been someone other than God. ". . . of God." This would not be any problem, John 1:2. 2) That he was the Lamb of God prior to His incarnation. 3) Which would mean His incarnation was always unnecessary.

I am of the view He was always to be the Lamb of God. That He became the Lamb of God through His incarnation.

Saying He has always been the Lamb of God is no different than saying He has always been the Son of God or God the Son. Those too, don’t mean He isn’t God.

If He was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, then at some point in eternity past He was not the Lamb of God. I cannot go that route.

 

[1689Dave]

Which world did the Lamb take away the sins for?

If you wish, as you lift your eyes to the far horizon of the future, to see looming on the edge of time the glory of a saved world, you can find warrant for so great a vision only in the high principles that it is God and God alone who saves men, that all their salvation is from him, and that in his own good time and way he will bring the world in its "entirety to the feet of him whom he has not hesitated to present to our adoring love not merely as the Saviour of our own souls, but as the Saviour of the world; and of whom he has himself declared that he has made propitiation not for our sins only, but for the sins of the world.

Calvinism thus is the guardian not only of the particularism which assures me that God the Lord is the Saviour of my soul, but equally of the universalism by which I am assured that he is also the true and actual Saviour of the world. On no other ground can any assurance be had either of the one or of the other. But on this ground we can be assured with an assurance which is without flaw, that not only shall there be saved the individual whom God visits with his saving grace, but also the world which he enters with his saving purpose, in all the length and breadth of it.

by B B Warfield. The Plan of Salvation.

 

[tyndale1946]

Which world did the Lamb take away the sins for?

If you wish, as you lift your eyes to the far horizon of the future, to see looming on the edge of time the glory of a saved world, you can find warrant for so great a vision only in the high principles that it is God and God alone who saves men, that all their salvation is from him, and that in his own good time and way he will bring the world in its "entirety to the feet of him whom he has not hesitated to present to our adoring love not merely as the Saviour of our own souls, but as the Saviour of the world; and of whom he has himself declared that he has made propitiation not for our sins only, but for the sins of the world.

Calvinism thus is the guardian not only of the particularism which assures me that God the Lord is the Saviour of my soul, but equally of the universalism by which I am assured that he is also the true and actual Saviour of the world. On no other ground can any assurance be had either of the one or of the other. But on this ground we can be assured with an assurance which is without flaw, that not only shall there be saved the individual whom God visits with his saving grace, but also the world which he enters with his saving purpose, in all the length and breadth of it.

by B B Warfield. The Plan of Salvation.

Man is in the plan by Gods MERCY, man doesn't make his own plan!... Brother Glen

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

And NEVER forget this one!

4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Saying He has always been the Lamb of God is no different than saying He has always been the Son of God or God the Son. Those too, don’t mean He isn’t God.

If He was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, then at some point in eternity past He was not the Lamb of God. I cannot go that route.

Why? With no plan for creation, thus no plan for redemption or even lambs, what would it mean to be "the Lamb of God"?

Would you want to go the route of saying God was predestined, eternally obligated to create the universe, create mankind and redeem us?

Precisely what route are you going? Perhaps more to the point, why are you going that route?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why? With no plan for creation, thus no plan for redemption or even lambs, what would it mean to be "the Lamb of God"?

Would you want to go the route of saying God was predestined, eternally obligated to create the universe, create mankind and redeem us?

Precisely what route are you going? Perhaps more to the point, why are you going that route?

I’m still trying to wrap my mind around someone saying, ”When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God.” If He was chosen to be the Lamb of God, that means He was not the Lamb of God prior to being chosen. And I don’t think that’s an orthodox saying.