The Lamb of God?

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I’m still trying to wrap my mind around someone saying, ”When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God.” If He was chosen to be the Lamb of God, that means He was not the Lamb of God prior to being chosen. And I don’t think that’s an orthodox saying.

OK, so hash it out. Why would it not be orthodox? On what basis?

By the way, when we speak of "when" regarding God, we might ask ourselves just what that means.

We know that God is not bound by our own timeline. Thus Scripture's beginning "In the beginning" cannot refer to God's beginning, nor to His plan.

 

[SovereignGrace]

OK, so hash it out. Why would it not be orthodox? On what basis?

By the way, when we speak of "when" regarding God, we might ask ourselves just what that means.

We know that God is not bound by our own timeline. Thus Scripture's beginning "In the beginning" cannot refer to God's beginning, nor to His plan.

Because that saying means at one point in eternity past He was not the Lamb of God. Or that’s how that statement comes across to me.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Because that saying means at one point in eternity past He was not the Lamb of God. Or that’s how that statement comes across to me.

What does a "point" in "eternity past" mean? What does it look like? How can we describe it? How should we understand it?

 

[37818]

Saying He has always been the Lamb of God is no different than saying He has always been the Son of God or God the Son.

I disagree. He changed to become a man, John 1:14. If He was always the Lamb of God why was it necessary to become a man? Isaiah 53:6. Isaiah 53:10-12. Luke 2:11. Some think He became a man to become the Son, Luke 1:35, Isaiah 9:6.

If He was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, then at some point in eternity past He was not the Lamb of God. I cannot go that route.

Unless He, the Word created infinite creations prior to Genesis 1:1 He changed when He became the Creator. And according to John 1:14 He changed to become a man. Hebrews 13:8 He is now always an immortal man - since His resurrection. Changes HE made, creation, His human birth, His two deaths on the cross and His resurrection to become an immortal man.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I disagree. He changed to become a man, John 1:14. If He was always the Lamb of God why was it necessary to become a man? Isaiah 53:6. Isaiah 53:10-12. Luke 2:11. Some think He became a man to become the Son, Luke 1:35, Isaiah 9:6.

Unless He, the Word created infinite creations prior to Genesis 1:1 He changed when He became the Creator. And according to John 1:14 He changed to become a man. Hebrews 13:8 He is now always an immortal man - since His resurrection. Changes HE made, creation, His human birth, His two deaths on the cross and His resurrection to become an immortal man.

He never changed in the incarnation. He became human but He is still God. Immanuel/Emmanuel, “God is with us”. God cannot change.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What does a "point" in "eternity past" mean? What does it look like? How can we describe it? How should we understand it?

Look, I’ve stated my case. If He was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, then He became the Lamb of God. I’ve stared my case.

 

[tyndale1946]

He never changed in the incarnation. He became human but He is still God. Immanuel/Emmanuel, “God is with us”. God cannot change.

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

God!.. The Eternal Son/Eternal Lamb was given a sinless body... Brother Glen

 

[rlvaughn]

Did Jesus choose to be the Lamb of God or has He always been the Lamb of God?

He always chose to the be Lamb of God, so he has always been the Lambe of God.

Revelation 13:8; 21:27; 5:6 (with 5:9-14); John 1:29; Acts 15:18; Ephesians 1:4-6. Perhaps also Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:6; 6:20; 8:3. As in, an high priest for ever of necessity must have somewhat also to offer, for ever.

 

[tyndale1946]

He always chose to the be Lamb of God, so he has always been the Lambe of God.

Revelation 13:8; 21:27; 5:6 (with 5:9-14); John 1:29; Acts 15:18; Ephesians 1:4-6. Perhaps also Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:6; 6:20; 8:3. As in, an high priest for ever of necessity must have somewhat also to offer, for ever.

I agree and in nature we always look at a lamb as a docile creature, gentle and would not harm a fly but if not for the Mercy of a loving caring God, giving us Salvation, which none of us deserved, we would receive another side of this lamb... Brother Glen

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[37818]

He never changed in the incarnation.

". . . was made flesh, . . ." That was a change.

And yes, in that He "was God" never changed. So how did He change? Because He did change.

". . . was with God . . . with God . . . ."

 

[SovereignGrace]

". . . was made flesh, . . ." That was a change.

And yes, in that He "was God" never changed. So how did He change? Because He did change.

". . . was with God . . . with God . . . ."

And if God changes He ceases to be God.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Look, I’ve stated my case. If He was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, then He became the Lamb of God. I’ve stared my case.

Stated? No, not really, so perhaps you should do the looking.

The case has not been stated with any precision. And most of the questions I raised that might help do that have not been addressed, are being avoided in fact.

What looks unorthodox is the static nature of the trinity that seems to lie at the heart of the position you are stuck on, one where it appears that God does not even think. Would God having thoughts change God?

 

[kyredneck]

He never changed in the incarnation. He became human but He is still God. Immanuel/Emmanuel, “God is with us”. God cannot change.

8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13

 

[kyredneck]

45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Cor 15

Has He always been a life-giving spirit?

 

[37818]

And if God changes He ceases to be God.

As He "was God" He never changed. As the one who was always "with God" He could change how He was with God. And that He did.

 

[zcostilla]

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

We have to recognize that God is eternal. He literally exists outside the confines of time. Anything that happens in the “Heaven of heavens”, also called the “third heaven” (the first being our atmosphere and the second being what we call outer space) also exists outside of time. It was here where Christ had poured out his blood upon the mercy seat, setting salvation outside the confines of time. This is why our salvation is eternal settled, and this is why the record of the word of God is eternally settled. So before man ever sinned, Jesus was the Lamb of God. In fact, before he spoke one word to create “the heaven and the earth”, Jesus was the Lamb.

 

[Dave G]

Would Lamb of God also be a title, seeing He is not a literal Lamb, but God the Son?

To me it's His title...the Lamb of God.
The sacrificial "lamb" for His people ( Isaiah 53 ).

Did Jesus choose to be the Lamb of God or has He always been the Lamb of God?

It says that He is the Lamb, and so He is ( John 1:36 ).
It says that He is the Lamb slain ...when was He foretold to have been slain? From the foundation of the world ( 1 Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8 ), my friend.

Some theologians have gone so far as to envision an agreement made, before the world began, between the Father and the Son...
in which the Father gave a people to His Son, and the Son became surety for them and them alone.
This was all planned from the start, and I happen to agree with them, for the most part;

However, I find it wise not to go beyond what the Scriptures say and to teach theories ( or even "almost-facts ) as fact,
as even careful ( and what seems to us as "sensible" ) conjecture can often go beyond the confines of what the Lord has given to us in His word.

That said, we can know that Jesus, who is Emmanuel ( "God with us", Matthew 1:23 ), is the Son of the living God ( Matthew 16:20 ).
The Father sent Him ( 1 John 4:14 ) to be the Saviour of the world.
That He is and was the Son of God from the beginning ( 1 John 1:1 ) appears to be in dispute among some people on this board, but to me it is not:

" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. " ( John 1:1-3 ).

In the above,
I see that all things were made by the Son, and outside of the Son was not made anything that was made...

So, this should settle the fact of whether or not He was the Son from creation ( and not "the first created being", for example, as some have taught ), or was part of the Godhead and then "became the Son" when He departed Heaven and was born of a woman.

That the Godhead is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, seems to be in dispute among some here.

 

[Dave G]

@SovereignGrace :

The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us ( John 1:14 )...
Therefore, to my understanding, He was always the Word, and He was made flesh and dwelt among us.
Notice the words:

" He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." ( John 1:10 ).

" For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." ( 1 John 5:7 ).
" Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." ( John 8:58 ).

" God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds ;" ( Hebrews 1:2 ).

In the above, I see 4 passages that should settle the deity of Christ as the Son of God / Word made flesh,
and was so because He is and was the Son of God before He became our Saviour.

How many more will it take for some to realize that He is who He said He was...the Son of God / God the Son, the Alpha and Omega ( Revelation 1:8 )?
I do not know.
All I know is that it wasn't very long after I began to study His words in earnest, that I began to see this for myself.

As far as being the Lamb...
He is the Lamb, and was foretold to be the Lamb, and that's as far as I'll go without looking into it further and...carefully.

Granted,
It's a very fine distinction and a bit of a challenge to sort out.
But is it worth an argument or a debate ( I'm not saying you are looking for that, but I know of others on this forum who seem to love debating ) to determine whether or not He was always the Lamb ( in contrast to always being the Son of God )?
I don't think so.

What I do think is that if you want to find an answer as to whether He actually chose to be the Lamb,
then God's word should be all that you need to find that answer for yourself.
To my recollection, I've never found much that gives me a full glimpse into it, but I could be mistaken.

One passage that comes to mind is this:

" Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour." ( John 12:27 ).


Study it out and let me know what you find;
Pay particular attention to what the Scriptures say about Him.