The Law a Schoolmaster

[kyredneck]

Brother Willis, I'm backing up a little so as to be certain that we are on the same page.

`Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3:7 YLT

`And, lo, I do send the promise of my Father upon you, but ye -- abide ye in the city of Jerusalem till ye be clothed with power from on high.` Lu 24:49 YLT

Do you believe these two passages are referring to the same thing?

 

[convicted1]

Brother Willis, I'm backing up a little so as to be certain that we are on the same page.

`Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3:7 YLT

`And, lo, I do send the promise of my Father upon you, but ye -- abide ye in the city of Jerusalem till ye be clothed with power from on high.` Lu 24:49 YLT

Do you believe these two passages are referring to the same thing?

Yes I do. I think John chapter 20 and Acts chapter 2 are the same event told by two different people. The promise couldn't be given until Jesus had been resurrected.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[kyredneck]

Brother Willis, needless to say that I disagree and I believe that you do err in not making a distinction between the birth of the Spirit and the filling of the Spirit:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. Jn 5:25

I suggest to you that the OT Saints were regenerated in the same exact manner as we.

 

[convicted1]

Brother Willis, needless to say that I disagree and I believe that you do err in not making a distinction between the birth of the Spirit and the filling of the Spirit:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. Jn 5:25

I suggest to you that the OT Saints were regenerated in the same exact manner as we.

Acts 2:1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


John 20:19Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.

21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Bro KYR,

I do believe that the "filling of the Spirit" is when the Spirit moved upon the OT saints, but they weren't filled with It. Only after Jesus was resurrected, do any of us see the indwelling of the Spirit. The Holy Ghost wasn't sent until after Jesus died and was buried and received back to the Father.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

It was after they heard the Word, were they filled with the Holy Ghost. If they(OT saints) were regenerated the same way we are now, then you'd have to advocate a fall from Grace, because look at what David did. So this is why I say they weren't regenerated then, like we are now. They had access to God by faith, but they didn't receive the promise until Jesus died and was risen. I hope this helps!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[kyredneck]

Gill, JFB, and Henry on Jn 20:22

“John 20:22

Ver. 22. And when he had said this,.... That is, declared he sent them forth in like manner as his Father sent him:

........And saith unto them, receive ye the Holy Ghost; meaning not the grace of the Holy Ghost in regeneration, which they had received already; but the gifts of the Spirit, to qualify them for the work he now sent them to do, and which were not now actually bestowed; but this breathing on them, and the words that attended it, were a symbol, pledge, and confirmation, of what they were to receive on the day of Pentecost: hence it appears, that it is the Spirit of God, who, by his gifts and grace, makes and qualifies men to be ministers of the Gospel; and our Lord by this action, and these words, gives a very considerable proof of his deity: the Papists show their impudence and wickedness, in imitating Christ by their insufflations, or breathing on men; pretending thereby to convey the Holy Spirit to them.” John Gill


“22. he breathed on them--a symbolical conveyance to them of the Spirit.
and saith, Receive ye the Holy Ghost--an earnest and first-fruits of the more copious Pentecostal effusion.” JFB

“[2.] The solemn grant he made, signified by this sign, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, in part now, as an earnest of what you shall further receive not many days hence." They now received more of the Holy Ghost than they had yet received. Thus spiritual blessings are given gradually; to him that has shall be given. Now that Jesus began to be glorified more of the Spirit began to be given: see ch. vii. 39. Let us see what is contained in this grant. First, Christ hereby gives them assurance of the Spirit's aid in their future work, in the execution of the commission now given them: "I send you, and you shall have the Spirit to go along with you." Now the Spirit of the Lord rested upon them to qualify them for all the services that lay before them. Whom Christ employs he will clothe with his Spirit, and furnish with all needful powers. Secondly, He hereby gives them experience of the Spirit's influences in their present case. He had shown them his hands and his side, to convince them of the truth of his resurrection; but the plainest evidences will not of themselves work faith, witness the infidelity of the soldiers, who were the only eye-witnesses of the resurrection. "Therefore receive ye the Holy Ghost, to work faith in you, and to open your understandings." They were now in danger of the Jews: "Therefore receive ye the Holy Ghost, to work courage in you." What Christ said to them he says to all true believers, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, Eph. i. 13. What Christ gives we must receive, must submit ourselves and our whole souls to the quickening, sanctifying, influences of the blessed Spirit-receive his motions, and comply with them—receive his powers and make use of them: and those who thus obey this word as a precept shall have the benefit of it as a promise; they shall receive the Holy Ghost as the guide of their way and the earnest of their inheritance.” Matthew Henry

 

[kyredneck]

Bro KYR.....I do believe that the "filling of the Spirit" is when the Spirit moved upon the OT saints, but they weren't filled with It......Willis

FWIW: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1616373#post1616373

 

[convicted1]

Bro KYR,

You have given me a lot to chew on, and that's a good thing. If I am understanding you correctly, you think that what Jesus did, was to "broaden the scope" of "who" got the Holy ghost after He was risen. I am trying to study this out, so I can you you an adequate answer.

However, look at Saul after he was anointed king of Israel. Even he prophesied like the OT saints did, and look at what happened to him in the end. That being said, let me study this some more and I will give you my thoughts on this subject. I am not dismissing what you have said, but I want to study this some more. Thanks again!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[kyredneck]

Bro KYR,

You have given me a lot to chew on, and that's a good thing. If I am understanding you correctly, you think that what Jesus did, was to "broaden the scope" of "who" got the Holy ghost after He was risen. I am trying to study this out, so I can you you an adequate answer.

However, look at Saul after he was anointed king of Israel. Even he prophesied like the OT saints did, and look at what happened to him in the end. That being said, let me study this some more and I will give you my thoughts on this subject. I am not dismissing what you have said, but I want to study this some more. Thanks again!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

Willis, I once had access to an outstanding scholarly essay (and for the life of me I cannot locate it) that delved into the operation of the Spirit OT vs NT, and the view you hold is not an uncommon one. You and I just disagree on it. If I locate it, I'll post it. It was a very good read.

Larry.

 

[convicted1]

Willis, I once had access to an outstanding scholarly essay (and for the life of me I cannot locate it) that delved into the operation of the Spirit OT vs NT, and the view you hold is not an uncommon one. You and I just disagree on it. If I locate it, I'll post it. It was a very good read.

Larry.

Bro Larry,

I am asking you an honest question so that I can try to understand where you are coming from on this. Do you believe that by Jesus dying on the cross, He "broadened the scope" of who will get the Holy Ghost? Before this, we gentiles were alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, without any hope. Are you saying that Jesus accomplished this, and that the promise was given to us by His accomplishment on the cross? I think this is what you are saying? Please elaborate further, please.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[kyredneck]

Bro Larry,

I am asking you an honest question so that I can try to understand where you are coming from on this. Do you believe that by Jesus dying on the cross, He "broadened the scope" of who will get the Holy Ghost? Before this, we gentiles were alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, without any hope. Are you saying that Jesus accomplished this, and that the promise was given to us by His accomplishment on the cross? I think this is what you are saying? Please elaborate further, please.

i am I am's!!

Willis

This is why I wish I could find this essay. The author aptly articulated 5 basic positions that is possible to take concerning this topic, and I actually waffled between two of them: 'NT Saints have more of the Spirit than the OT Saints', or, 'the special working/empowerment of the Spirit ceased after the Church was firmly established and the NT Saints are now no different than the OT Saints spiritually'.

But this much I am convinced of; Jn 3:8 and the baptism/filling/empowerment/pouring out, of the Spirit that began at Pentecost are two entirely different operations of the Spirit. Not the same thing.

Before this, we gentiles were alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, without any hope.

Are you reading “without any hope” to mean bound for eternal destruction in hell? Because I most definitely do not. Paul quotes the OT in Gal 4 “more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband” to plainly mean there were more children of God outside of the Old Covenant than they were included in it. I believe the hope here comes from hearing and believing the good news of the life and immortality that Christ has imparted to His own, Jew or Gentile.

Larry.

 

[convicted1]

Are you reading “without any hope” to mean bound for eternal destruction in hell?

What I mean by we gentiles being without hope is this: God gave the Law to the Jews, and only few gentiles accessed this hope, which is also by faith in God. Rahab and Ruth are two gentiles who come to mind who were "adopted" into the Jewish Israel(12 tribes of Jacob). So by Jesus dying for us, He made the way passible and possible for us(gentiles) to have access to the Father, just as the OT Jews had. He broke the middle wall of partition, the veil of the temple was rent in twain therefore, giving us access to God.

Paul quotes the OT in Gal 4 “more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband” to plainly mean there were more children of God outside of the Old Covenant than they were included in it.

There are more children outside of the Law. According to scripture, there are already 144,000 in heaven(12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel). Those 144,000 got up after Jesus rose. It said the graves burst opened, but no one got up until after Jesus rose. We(the NT church) are the children of the desolate, and by Jesus dying and moreover, being risen, now have access to the Father. I am trying to convey this so that I don't confuse you, but it's hard for me to express thingscorrectly with a keyboard. Even Jesus stated that He came to the Jews first, and by their rejection of Him, we were "grafted in", meaning we now obtain the "adoption of sons", making the two sticks one.

Here is a passage from Galatians:

4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren,we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

The Law kept people under bondage, meaning they had to do this, and that, to be in rightstanding with God. The Grace covenant makes us free from the Law. We no longer keep the Law, but Grace keeps us!!

In closing Bro Larry, the Law was directed to our flesh, where the Grace covenant is directed to our soul. I hope this doen't cause your head to spin. If you need any clarification from me, please let me know. I love you!!

i am I am's!!

Willis