The Law: All or Nothing? Done Away or Still Today?

[J.D.]

Tom, I think when anyone starts with the question, "Does the law apply", or "Who does the law apply to", they end up with some inconsistencies. If however we ask, "HOW does the law apply to us", instead of "DOES the law apply to us", we can be consistent in our understanding.

Q: HOW does the law of circumcision apply to us? A: We are spiritually circumcised with the circumcision made without hands - in Christ.

Q: HOW does the 9th commandment apply to us? We are to obey it as God's children, as it is written on our hearts, and is bound to our love of God.

The moral, ceremonial, and civil distinctions are unavoidable, as well as the 3 uses of the law.

How would you handle the Ten Commandments? Were they the Ten Just Kiddings? The Ten Never Minds for Christians?

 

[J.D.]

Tom:

1. When any part of the Law passes away it all passes away - together.
2. When that does happen - and I believe it did, since the means of keeping that Law is now gone - then we are necessarily in the new heavens and new Earth.

All of this (except for the parenthetical part of #2) is clearly stated in Matt. 5:17-18.

Okay, let's allow that you have rightly stated your point. It's a strong argument. but now how do you account for the fact that in the new heavens and new earth, the church receives instruction in righteousness FROM THE LAW OF MOSES. This is what led the reformers to conclude an eternal nature in the moral aspects of the law.

[edit: Aaron & Tom: pardon me for intruding on the conversation]

 

[JesusFan]

Yes but John tells us Christ will reign on earth prior to the New Jerusalem coming down, so the Millinium kingdom has not yet come.

Agreed... Bible does show that there is coming both a Great Tribulation, and a physical returning of jesus to the earth, to set up a literally Kingom upon this earth...
And that since purpose of Tribulation will be to judge the Kingdoms of this World, punish those who refused to beieve in Christ, and will be the "instrument" God used to prepare Isreal of that time to receive their Messiah...
No need for Church to be here, will be raptured out!

Of course the church must be raptured out prior to it all Paul and John both show us this.

1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then John foresees the rapture in Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter

Notice John hears the trumpet call, then when He get's to heaven Revelation 4:2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

He sees the 24 elders of the church enthroned and wearing their crowns.

1 Corinthians 3:12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Notice the rewards are given when the church is raptured, later at the end of revelation we see the great white throne in which the unbelievers are judged. So no we aren't living in the kingdom we are under Grace as gentiles. The Law never applied to gentiles it was always for the Jews. The rapture must take place then the time of trouble, the tribulation as shown by John, then the milinium and then the New Jerusalem.

Agree with your timing, ,ain point was that this cannot be the "New Heavens/New earth" Jerusalem falling in AD 70 NOT Great Tribulation, and revelation has much to happen yet!

 

[JesusFan]

Actually, during the 'time"of the new Heavens/earth, We will ALL have glorified bodies, all sin and its effect removed from us, and ALL of us than will be obeying God perfectly, as God will be in all and throgh all...

There will be a brand new creation, ALL former things will have passed away, and we will be those whose very natures will be reflecting image of Christ perfectly, never more to sin, so no need to be instructed, as God himself will be forever living in and through us!

 

[asterisktom]

Tom, I think when anyone starts with the question, "Does the law apply", or "Who does the law apply to", they end up with some inconsistencies. If however we ask, "HOW does the law apply to us", instead of "DOES the law apply to us", we can be consistent in our understanding.

Q: HOW does the law of circumcision apply to us? A: We are spiritually circumcised with the circumcision made without hands - in Christ.

Q: HOW does the 9th commandment apply to us? We are to obey it as God's children, as it is written on our hearts, and is bound to our love of God.

The moral, ceremonial, and civil distinctions are unavoidable, as well as the 3 uses of the law.

How would you handle the Ten Commandments? Were they the Ten Just Kiddings? The Ten Never Minds for Christians?

But, JD, those two questions in your opening sentence were not the ones I was asking in the OP. My point is stated in the title: We either are obligated to all of the Law or to none of the Law. The question of "how", "in what way", etc. is beside the point.

The "moral, ceremonial, and civil distinctions" are also, likewise, beside the point. Unless you want to argue that Christ only fulfilled part of the Law. Still no one has addressed the main conundrum raised by this passage in Matt. 5: Christ said that all of the Law - necessarily, as an inseparable unit - becomes deprecated at the very same time. And that very same time is followed immediately by the new heavens and the new Earth.

This is is all in the text.
The text that no one is addressing.

 

[J.D.]

But, JD, those two questions in your opening sentence were not the ones I was asking in the OP. My point is stated in the title: We either are obligated to all of the Law or to none of the Law. The question of "how", "in what way", etc. is beside the point.

The "moral, ceremonial, and civil distinctions" are also, likewise, beside the point. Unless you want to argue that Christ only fulfilled part of the Law. Still no one has addressed the main conundrum raised by this passage in Matt. 5: Christ said that all of the Law - necessarily, as an inseparable unit - becomes deprecated at the very same time. And that very same time is followed immediately by the new heavens and the new Earth.

This is is all in the text.
The text that no one is addressing.

It works out fine in my mind in a covenantal framework. Old Covenant - passed away; New Covenant - all things made new. The fact that every jot and title of the law was fulfilled does not preclude certain aspects of that law from carrying over into the new covenant - those "eternal" features. The New Testament states that believers are to fulfill the law, not under Old Covenant condemnation, but under New Covenant inabling.

I think I see where you're going with this, and I've this elsewhere, and is one of the reasons I stop short of full preterism. I think this is where you start pushing scripture aside to fit the FP paradigm. I say that respectfully, you know that.

 

[revmwc]

But, JD, those two questions in your opening sentence were not the ones I was asking in the OP. My point is stated in the title: We either are obligated to all of the Law or to none of the Law. The question of "how", "in what way", etc. is beside the point.

The "moral, ceremonial, and civil distinctions" are also, likewise, beside the point. Unless you want to argue that Christ only fulfilled part of the Law. Still no one has addressed the main conundrum raised by this passage in Matt. 5: Christ said that all of the Law - necessarily, as an inseparable unit - becomes deprecated at the very same time. And that very same time is followed immediately by the new heavens and the new Earth.

This is is all in the text.
The text that no one is addressing.

So the law has not been fulfilled all the way with Christ, in His first advent he fulfilled 3 of the 7 feast, 50 days after passover 10 after his ascension one more was fulfilled that was the Petacostal feast fulfilled. So there are yet 3 feast laid out in the Law yet to be fulfilled. The feast of Trumpets has yet to be fulfilled, The Day of Atonement is yet to be fuflfilled, The feast of Tabernacles is not yet fulfilled, they will be after the church is gathered in and the end of the 40th week of Daniels forty. The tribulation being that last week. Then the milinium reign in which these last 3 are fulfilled, Israel is truly gathered back as a nation, with Jesus ruling in Jerusalem on David's throne. The Jews will live in the fully inhrerited land in peace.

So is the law fulfilled? I say not until all the feast are fulfilled and that will not happen until Christ ratures the church and then 7 years later returns to earth to rule and reign for 1000 years upon David's throne. Then having fulfilled all the New Heaven and New Earth will come into being.

 

[asterisktom]

Tom:

Okay, let's allow that you have rightly stated your point. It's a strong argument. but now how do you account for the fact that in the new heavens and new earth, the church receives instruction in righteousness FROM THE LAW OF MOSES. This is what led the reformers to conclude an eternal nature in the moral aspects of the law.

[edit: Aaron & Tom: pardon me for intruding on the conversation]

Intrusion is welcome. This is a discussion board for all.

Now, about the church receiving instruction from the Law of Moses: Could you give me a passage that teaches this? Thanks.

 

[asterisktom]

The New Testament states that believers are to fulfill the law, not under Old Covenant condemnation, but under New Covenant inabling.

I thought this was well put.

I think I see where you're going with this, and I've [said?] this elsewhere, and is one of the reasons I stop short of full preterism. I think this is where you start pushing scripture aside to fit the FP paradigm. I say that respectfully, you know that.

I have never known you to be anything but respectful. I know it is hard to see into the minds and hearts of others here, but let me just tell you that Preterism - let alone Full Preterism - was not the place I wanted to end up at. Why would I? They are viewed by many as the worst of heretics. In my prophecy group 10 years ago I threw out a number of Preterists, being quite convinced that they were seriously in error.

But it wasn't "pushing Scripture aside" that led me to the very place I didn't want to arrive at, it was Scripture and pushing man's commentary aside that clinched it for me. It was verses (among a couple dozen others) like Matt. 5:17-18 that just would not be accounted for in the systems I had been taught. They had no answer for the question posed by Matt. 5:17-18. Luther, Calvin, Hendriksen, Sproul - all the big guns of Reformed theology drew a blank on this passage.

Of course, I went from being a grudging Preterist to happily confirmed one, seeing now that a whole host of other passages now make contextual sense.

 

[J.D.]

I thought this was well put.


I have never known you to be anything but respectful. I know it is hard to see into the minds and hearts of others here, but let me just tell you that Preterism - let alone Full Preterism - was not the place I wanted to end up at. Why would I? They are viewed by many as the worst of heretics. In my prophecy group 10 years ago I threw out a number of Preterists, being quite convinced that they were seriously in error.

But it wasn't "pushing Scripture aside" that led me to the very place I didn't want to arrive at, it was Scripture and pushing man's commentary aside that clinched it for me. It was verses (among a couple dozen others) like Matt. 5:17-18 that just would not be accounted for in the systems I had been taught. They had no answer for the question posed by Matt. 5:17-18. Luther, Calvin, Hendriksen, Sproul - all the big guns of Reformed theology drew a blank on this passage.

Of course, I went from being a grudging Preterist to happily confirmed one, seeing now that a whole host of other passages now make contextual sense.

Fair enough. I'm logging off now, don't know when I'll get back to this. I'm looking forward to your interactions with others when I get back around to it.

 

[InTheLight]

You had me up to this point:

At the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 the only means of perpetuating and observing the Law was likewise destroyed. The elements (the STOICHEIA), the basis of our condemnation, likewise burned to the ground. Hallelujah! Peter tells us - twice - that the "elements will melt with fervent heat". What are these elements? None other than the foundational principals of the whole Law system, Gal. 4:3; Col. 2:8, 20. With the burning of the physical bricks and stones of the Temple there was an inexorable but invisible burning up of that whole system. We couldn't return to the Law if we wanted to.

But we still have the record of the law. Not one jot or tittle has been removed from it. We can read it if we want to do so. The heavens and earth are still here and so is the law.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. [NIV]

When the earth is destroyed and the new heavens and the new earth is created the law will be destroyed with it and there will be no record of it any longer.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

How is ‘nomon’ being defined in this thread---the 613, tha 10 commandments, the entire OT, something else? Does one’s interpretation of this in anyway impact the meaning of the text?

 

[asterisktom]

How is ‘nomon’ being defined in this thread---the 613, tha 10 commandments, the entire OT, something else? Does one’s interpretation of this in anyway impact the meaning of the text?

A very important question. "Law" in the OP is based on Christ's use in Matt. 5:17-18. In that passage He was demonstrably not restricting Himself to the Ten Commandments, but to the wide range of the Law. His series of "You have heard that it was said, but I say unto you..." draw upon both Decalogue commandments and lesser ones. The very fact that He treats of all them in the same discourse shows that He sees all of them as "Law". Thus His comments in verses 17-18 must be seen in the light of these later applications.

The only mention of either "law or commandments is in the first and last chapter (7:11 and 22-23) of this Sermon on the Mount, yet the application is throughout.

In 7:11 He sums up the Law as proactive care for our fellow man. "[T]his is the Law and the Prophets."

Not to follow the closing positive injunction of the above verse 11 is to incur the doom of vs.23:

" ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

All of this is to say that the Law we encounter here is not just those ten commandments, but the entirety of God's injunctions to man.

 

[asterisktom]

You had me up to this point:



But we still have the record of the law. Not one jot or tittle has been removed from it. We can read it if we want to do so. The heavens and earth are still here and so is the law.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. [NIV]

When the earth is destroyed and the new heavens and the new earth is created the law will be destroyed with it and there will be no record of it any longer.

The passing away of the Law is no more to be taken woodenly literally than the passing of the old heaven and old earth.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

A very important question. "Law" in the OP is based on Christ's use in Matt. 5:17-18. In that passage He was demonstrably not restricting Himself to the Ten Commandments, but to the wide range of the Law. His series of "You have heard that it was said, but I say unto you..." draw upon both Decalogue commandments and lesser ones. The very fact that He treats of all them in the same discourse shows that He sees all of them as "Law". Thus His comments in verses 17-18 must be seen in the light of these later applications.

The only mention of either "law or commandments is in the first and last chapter (7:11 and 22-23) of this Sermon on the Mount, yet the application is throughout.

In 7:11 He sums up the Law as proactive care for our fellow man. "[T]his is the Law and the Prophets."

Not to follow the closing positive injunction of the above verse 11 is to incur the doom of vs.23:

" ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

All of this is to say that the Law we encounter here is not just those ten commandments, but the entirety of God's injunctions to man.

certainly agree that it cannot be limited to just the 10 commandments. I just happen to be researching Matt 5 for an upcoming lesson & a majority of commentaries (at least that I’m reading) define the law (and the prophets) as a reference to the entire Hebrew Scriptures. Further, many seem to be saying that the event is recorded by Matthew to show that Jesus was not antinomian, a possible accusation that had been going out against his teachings. And most seem to think the 2 phrases ‘until heaven & earth pass away’ & ‘until all things are accomplished’ r synonymous references to the end of the present world & the beginning of the eschaton, (when ever this may be), while the fulfill (pleroo) was accomplished by Jesus, b/c Matt repeatedly uses the fulfill formula to show that Jesus was the fulfiller of the OT (b/c it all pointed to him). But I really haven’t seen any commentaries that completely agree with your conclusion as a whole, but that does not mean it is not plausible. While I don’t personally endorse it, I am not adamantly opposed to preterism eschatology (b/c it is to say the least biblically plausible). So I’m interested in seeing if this thread can give further support to your ideas.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

But, JD, those two questions in your opening sentence were not the ones I was asking in the OP. My point is stated in the title: We either are obligated to all of the Law or to none of the Law. The question of "how", "in what way", etc. is beside the point.

The "moral, ceremonial, and civil distinctions" are also, likewise, beside the point. Unless you want to argue that Christ only fulfilled part of the Law. Still no one has addressed the main conundrum raised by this passage in Matt. 5: Christ said that all of the Law - necessarily, as an inseparable unit - becomes deprecated at the very same time. And that very same time is followed immediately by the new heavens and the new Earth.

This is is all in the text.
The text that no one is addressing.

This is baloney. There is a part of the law which is very clearly different from any other parts.

Deut 5:22. 'These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.'

There was one part of the law, and only one, which God spoke to all the assembly and then wrote on tablets of stone. The rest of the law was given to Moses alone, by the mediation of angels (Acts 7:53; Gal 3:19) and then passed on to the people. All the Ten Commandments can be found in the Bible before Exodus 20 if you look for them. They are God's eternal laws and therefore do not pass away with the Temple. It is these commandments, the ones formerly written on stone, which are written on the hearts of believers (2Cor 3:3) in the New Covenant (Jer 31:31ff; Heb 8:7ff; 10:16).

Steve

 

[Iconoclast]

The ten commandments are for all men.
They were before the mosaic laws were spelled out.
Mosaic law is just an expansion of the ten.
All men will be judged by the ten commandments

 

[asterisktom]

This is baloney. There is a part of the law which is very clearly different from any other parts.

Deut 5:22. 'These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.'

There was one part of the law, and only one, which God spoke to all the assembly and then wrote on tablets of stone. The rest of the law was given to Moses alone, by the mediation of angels (Acts 7:53; Gal 3:19) and then passed on to the people. All the Ten Commandments can be found in the Bible before Exodus 20 if you look for them. They are God's eternal laws and therefore do not pass away with the Temple. It is these commandments, the ones formerly written on stone, which are written on the hearts of believers (2Cor 3:3) in the New Covenant (Jer 31:31ff; Heb 8:7ff; 10:16).

Steve

Some are interested in the cordial discussion of the meat of the Word, others dismiss all opposing view as "baloney". Then you follow with a couple of non-sequiturs.

 

[asterisktom]

The ten commandments are for all men.
They were before the mosaic laws were spelled out.
Mosaic law is just an expansion of the ten.
All men will be judged by the ten commandments

Please lets get back to Jesus' use of Law on the Sermon of the Mount. He gave no indication that there are different Laws in this section. This is important, because what Christ says will happen to the Law will happen to all of it, exemplified by the many parts He referred to in this section.

I am not asserting that the Decalogue does not have a higher priority, just that Christ was not making that distinction in this section. Neither should we.

 

[Aaron]

This same Spirit teaches us to love. This precludes adultery.

And, as Christ and the Apostles said, love is the fulfillment of the law.

However this Spirit did not teach me anything about keeping the Sabbath holy, according to modern man's rubrics.

Nothing is according to "man's rubrics." Come unto me all ye who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. There's commandments One through Four.

But all of this still does not touch on the OP, summarized as:
1. When any part of the Law passes away it all passes away - together.

Well then there is no law against adultery.

But the premise is false. All the law was not given at the same time nor in the same manner. There is a law that will stand as long as the earth is seen to stand. It was established as part of the creation, Gen. 2:3; and was written in the hearts of the gentiles before Moses, Rom. 1:19-32; 2:14-15.

These things are holy, just, good, (Rom. 7:12) and spiritual (Rom. 7:14). And that which is spiritual is eternal, 2 Cor. 4:18.

But there is a commandment that was carnal and temporary, (Heb. 7:16) and that was the commandment that created the Levitical tabernacle, priesthood and offerings, Heb. 7:5-14. That is the law that has changed, Heb. 7:12. It could be changed because it was carnal and temporary.

So, right there in the Scriptures where you have argued there is no division in the law, it's plastered all over the pages of the Bible in a manner so obvious that a child could discern it: The moral law is spiritual, and the ceremonial law is carnal.

2. When that does happen - and I believe it did, since the means of keeping that Law is now gone. . .

It was gone around 600 B.C., too, but that isn't what determines whether or not the ceremonial law is in effect. Christ determines that, and it was the Cross which took it away, not the destruction of Jerusalem.

All of this (except for the parenthetical part of #2) is clearly stated in Matt. 5:17-18.

When Christ comments on the law, it is clearly the moral law. He talks about anger and murder and lust and adultery, not robes, priests and sacrifices.

In the New Testament, when Paul speaks of the law, he is sometimes speaking of the moral law, which he said was spiritual, and sometimes he speaks of the ceremonial law, which he said was carnal. The end, or fulfillment of the moral law is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned. When love fails, then the commandment will fail.

But this nonsense you're spewing is swerving from that, and you're being turned aside unto vain jangling.