The "law" of Sin - Rom. 7:

[Winman]

That is not his meaning as all do not see themselves as sinner and Jesus did not come to save the righteous but sinners only. Only the elective grace of God makes sinners see themselves as sinners and until you can see that there is no need for salvation. Until you can see you are "lost" there is no salvation needed for those who see themselves as "just" and as a son who "never sinned at any time" against the Father.

Oh brother! Don't you Calvinists ever get tired of saying scripture doesn't mean what it plainly says?

Doesn't that kind of throw up red flags all over the place?

If I went to church and my preacher kept telling me scripture doesn't mean what it says, I would get up and walk out quick.

 

[The Biblicist]

Oh brother! Don't you Calvinists ever get tired of saying scripture doesn't mean what it plainly says?

Doesn't that kind of throw up red flags all over the place?

If I went to church and my preacher kept telling me scripture doesn't mean what it says, I would get up and walk out quick.

*sigh*

I did not deny anything the text actually said. I simply harmonized the language with other clear statements where Jesus said he did not come to save the righteous but sinners. The difference? Both are equally sinners but only those who recognize they are sinners are subjects for salvation as none others need salvation. A very simple point that does not contradict anything the text says. Just your interpretation of the text.

 

[Skandelon]

No, John 17:3 concerns "all flesh" and "as many as" the Father gives the Son to give eternal life to including the twleve as well as all in the future who shall be saved. They are the "as many as" were given to the Son, along with all who lived before the 12 lived from Adam right up to all the rest of the saints in addition to the twelve presently living when he said this. However, only the twelve were present in the room.

If that were the case, then Jesus shift to later include those who believe their message doesn't make much sense given that they had already been prayed for in the "as many as." It is a shift in your perceptive. You are thinking Jesus is speaking universally, when in reality he is speaking about those given to HIM, while in the flesh. Those remnant of Israel given to be discipled and sent to all the world to proclaim the gospel. It is later (vs. 17) where he shifts to pray for those who respond to their message.

 

[Skandelon]

We all beleive they can come to me if the Father draws but we all do not beleive they are without ability to come on their own accord.

I disagree. I don't consider someone being confronted by the powerful, life-giving, Holy Spirit wrought, inspired gospel truth acting 'on their own accord.' Do you?

I think more highly of the gospel appeal than that...

 

[The Biblicist]

If that were the case, then Jesus shift to later include those who believe their message doesn't make much sense given that they had already been prayed for in the "as many as." It is a shift in your perceptive.

He is speaking from the present because he is in the present, but you are sadly mistaken if you believe all saints previous to this point in time were not also given to him by the Father to come to him by faith. Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2; and the example of Abraham complete repudiate that kind of thinking. And don't respond that the cross had not yet occurred. That is as lame assuming pre-cross saints were saved by law keeping when Abraham was PRE-Moses and is the EXAMPLE of justification by faith not merely for post-cross but for ALL BELEIVERS in Christ/Messiah.

No, "all flesh" means "all flesh" and "as many as" the Father gives refers to the elect in all generations past, present and future because there is no salvaiton OUTSIDE of Christ in any generation so the elect are those before the world began chosen "IN HIM" because there is no salvation for anyone at any time OUTSIDE OF HIM.

 

[The Biblicist]

I disagree. I don't consider someone being confronted by the powerful, life-giving, Holy Spirit wrought, inspired gospel truth acting 'on their own accord.' Do you?

I think more highly of the gospel appeal than that...

I don't consider the gospel preached every time as life-giving, Holy Spirit powered with full assuracne to all that physically hear it.

 

[Skandelon]

I don't consider the gospel preached every time as life-giving, Holy Spirit powered with full assuracne to all that physically hear it.

There are many scriptures which speak to the power of the Word. Jesus even said, "the very word I speak to you is spirit and life."

He also says that his words are what will condemn those who reject them in the final day (Jn 12).

If the word of God is preached and a man rejects it, is a lack of power in the word being preached that causes the rejection? Is it the failing on the part of the truth? Of course not, its the fault of the hearer who rejected it. Yet, if you claim that the word of God isn't powerful enough to enable a response then its not the hearers fault its the words failing for not being clear enough...able to be comprehended..(or understood, which ever word you are using today :tongue3

 

[Winman]

There are many scriptures which speak to the power of the Word. Jesus even said, "the very word I speak to you is spirit and life."

He also says that his words are what will condemn those who reject them in the final day (Jn 12).

If the word of God is preached and a man rejects it, is a lack of power in the word being preached that causes the rejection? Is it the failing on the part of the truth? Of course not, its the fault of the hearer who rejected it. Yet, if you claim that the word of God isn't powerful enough to enable a response then its not the hearers fault its the words failing for not being clear enough...able to be comprehended..(or understood, which ever word you are using today :tongue3

What determines whether the word of God is effectual or not is belief.

1 The 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Scripture says that the word of God works effectually in those that believe.

Calvinism says the exact opposite of scripture, Calvinism says that the effectual word or call works in a person to cause belief.

Once again Calvinism directly reverses what scriptures truly say.